Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: nosey-p on March 28, 2018, 22:33:20 PM
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Early suggestions for season 12
This comes up every year but I think now is the time to increase the buy-in to £110 (£100 + £10). Since we started the buy-in has been the same so in reality the price is cheaper now then 12 years ago. I know the counter argument is that we are Amateur and making it £110 may push people away and if you come as a couple then it's a double rise. There are plenty of casino games now that offer this kind of game most months for the same buy-in with 10k/20k pay outs so don't think it will hurt us in turn out. The extra £2.50 for Grosvenor will keep them happy as there costs go up, which make them more likely keep sponsoring us. Alternatively we could make it £100 buy-in (£90 + £10). Another argument will be what do we make the main event at the world's if we have a £110, I say why does it have to be different; we already have a High buy-in £220.
Is it time to increase the starting stack to 20k? We all need to get home on a Sunday at a reasonable time but this will only effect the final table if the increase effects the running time. May be drop the 45 minutes to 40 minutes and/or miss a level out (first level or 100/200 25 ante) I'm no guru when it comes to this so others will probable tell us the pro's and con's of this and why it's a bad or good idea. .
For some time now, the first thing I look for when the new season is announced is the team event. I think it's the best event and with the amount of teams we get entering show's that everyone else thinks the same. This event is heavily advertised/promoted as a “Team Game/Tournament” but the payout is 50/50 I think this needs to be looked at. This game is played total different to any other game, (If you are playing as team player) You sacrifice your own game for the good of your team in doing this you are probably saying good bye to any individual glory. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a individual element to the game, it has to have this for the game to come to a conclusion without everyone just going all in for the sake of it knowing that there team are already out.
The winners of all the main events get added value in a way of a £550 seat, the team event winner also gets a £550 seat, the team winners get zero. I'm not saying that the 8 winners should get a £550 seat (not enough sponsorship to go around) but they has to be some kind of added value like a £110 token or the £550 can go to the team to do with as they see fit. The payout should be more one sided in favourer to the team 60/40. THIS IS A TEAM EVENT, THE TEAM SHOULD GET REWARDED
Played a few games when button pays the ante and got to say I like it, can only see this being the norm in the future
Just my thoughts
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Absolutely against raising the buyin for the main events. For the reasons you stated, keep it affordable to most, just because you (or others, not a personal attack!) can afford it, doesn't mean most can.
I like the idea of raising the starting stack, but the levels would need to be adjusted accordingly, and I'm 8 pints deep in a restaurant in Florida (thin) so can't think about that at the minute!
Button Antes for EVERY main event next season is a must for me, if it's good enough for most of the main tours now, I'm sure it's good enough for us roflers. People know my thoughts on this by now though!!
I haven't attended enough events this season (naughty stu) to really comment further.
Look forward to seeing people's thoughts tho, should be some great debate going forward!
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Nice one Wayne... always willing to listen to suggestions for improvement... with no promises of course :)
And yes, Season 12 planning has commenced... so get your thoughts/suggestions made public now...
EDIT: oh hell I opened a can of worms there! No... Season 12 will NOT be announced before or during WCOAP... I suspect mid to late April...
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Good suggestions. I like the idea of 110 buyin for the reasons you state.
For the team game I think that'a a good idea too. But... how would it affect those who have nothing to play for? There's no difference really between 31st and 32nd team-wise, but whilst an individual can still win they'll be playing "properly". Without that element they could go crazy "all in every hand" or whatever and ruin the dynamic?
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Great post Wayne.
While in discussion with a fellow APATer in the Walsall 25/25 the other week, the subject of the APAT Team event came up.
Every year teams miss out on this due to capacity.
Would it be possible to hire the parts of the Ricoh used by Goliath and stage the team event there?
That way, anyone who wanted to enter could do so.
Also, please keep the WCOAP as you have done this year, in that you START at Easter and not end at Easter. That way, those of us who wish to remain married, can do so :)
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Hi people is it possible to have a game in newcastle this season, also regarding the team game think the people returning on sunday or last 50/60 should be the points winners,not half the field , to have the game won so early takes away a lot of the excitement in the closing stages and keeps people hanging around for longer.
keep up the good work,stay true no rebuys no re-entries
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Hi people is it possible to have a game in the North-East this season, also regarding the team game think the people returning on sunday or last 50/60 should be the points winners,not half the field , to have the game won so early takes away a lot of the excitement in the closing stages and keeps people hanging around for longer.
keep up the good work,stay true no rebuys no re-entries
Fixed your post :)
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My minor thoughts:
On the "raising the buy in" in all honesty the cost of travel, hotels, food etc etc makes more difference to me than the actual buy in price. That's why I didn't travel to Edinburgh this year, so changing the buy in to £110 wouldn't make too much difference to me.
I wonder though if once it gets to £110 (or more) that it might get a bit too serious and take some of the fun out of APAT's?
On button antes I say YES!
My major thought:
On stacks yes I think 20k starting stack is a must. 15k seems like a short stack these days as every local £30 comp I play these days has 20k or more as a starting stack.
What I would prefer though is we keep all the current levels (the structure is fantastic imo) but reduce the clock on day 1.
I have always felt that we don't play enough levels on day 1 so I would prefer as a suggestion.
4 x 30 minutes
8 x 40 minutes
This would mean only an extra 35 mins of total playing time but we would have advanced the clock 3 levels. (Day two clock as now 45 mins)
This way we'd play 12 levels day 1 and start day 2 at 1000/2000/300 instead of starting day 2 at 500/1000/100
I feel this would make up for the extra chips and thin the field a bit so day 2 is not so long.
You could still have 3 breaks if we did it as;
4 x 30 minutes (Break)
3 x 40 minutes (Break)
3 x 40 minutes (Break)
2 x 40 minutes (End of day)
Anyway my 2p's worth. I'm sure I'll still turn up whatever is decided!
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My minor thoughts:
On the "raising the buy in" in all honesty the cost of travel, hotels, food etc etc makes more difference to me than the actual buy in price. That's why I didn't travel to Edinburgh this year, so changing the buy in to £110 wouldn't make too much difference to me.
I wonder though if once it gets to £110 (or more) that it might get a bit too serious and take some of the fun out of APAT's?
On button antes I say YES!
Totally agree with this but it affects me the other way around. I have to pay travel and accommodation costs for every event, that far outweighs to buy-in, not just Edinburgh. A rise in the buy-in has the least effect in my taking part. It was very noticeable that many regulars were not in Dublin or Edinburgh. That suggests it's travel and accommodation not buy-in that determines participation.
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Hi people is it possible to have a game in the North-East this season, also regarding the team game think the people returning on sunday or last 50/60 should be the points winners,not half the field , to have the game won so early takes away a lot of the excitement in the closing stages and keeps people hanging around for longer.
keep up the good work,stay true no rebuys no re-entries
Fixed your post :)
day 1a Newcastle 1b Scumderland 1c stockton day 2 take yer pick
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My minor thoughts:
On the "raising the buy in" in all honesty the cost of travel, hotels, food etc etc makes more difference to me than the actual buy in price. That's why I didn't travel to Edinburgh this year, so changing the buy in to £110 wouldn't make too much difference to me.
I wonder though if once it gets to £110 (or more) that it might get a bit too serious and take some of the fun out of APAT's?
On button antes I say YES!
Totally agree with this but it affects me the other way around. I have to pay travel and accommodation costs for every event, that far outweighs to buy-in, not just Edinburgh. A rise in the buy-in has the least effect in my taking part. It was very noticeable that many regulars were not in Dublin or Edinburgh. That suggests it's travel and accommodation not buy-in that determines participation.
This
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If it's travel and accommodation that drives us then maybe we should have all the events in the cheapest place...Blackpool?! :D
On a more serious matter I'm against the change to increased buy in. A lot of the regs can afford this raise but it's always been a selling point for recs that APAT offers the best structured 2 day comp for less than a hundred quid. Plus if the buy in for main events is £110, what's the ME buy in for WCOAP, £150?
I'm heading out now so will come back and post more on this later.
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If it's travel and accommodation that drives us then maybe we should have all the events in the cheapest place...Blackpool?! :D
On a more serious matter I'm against the change to increased buy in. A lot of the regs can afford this raise but it's always been a selling point for recs that APAT offers the best structured 2 day comp for less than a hundred quid. Plus if the buy in for main events is £110, what's the ME buy in for WCOAP, £150?
I'm heading out now so will come back and post more on this later.
Why does the main event at the WCOAP have to be different? we already have a £220 buy-in
The equivalent to £75 in 2005 would be £109 today so it be wont be an increase as such just keeping up with inflation
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If it's travel and accommodation that drives us then maybe we should have all the events in the cheapest place...Blackpool?! :D
On a more serious matter I'm against the change to increased buy in. A lot of the regs can afford this raise but it's always been a selling point for recs that APAT offers the best structured 2 day comp for less than a hundred quid. Plus if the buy in for main events is £110, what's the ME buy in for WCOAP, £150?
I'm heading out now so will come back and post more on this later.
Why does the main event at the WCOAP have to be different? we already have a £220 buy-in
The equivalent to £75 in 2005 would be £109 today so it be wont be an increase as such just keeping up with inflation
Erm...because it's marketed as the Main Event. Just like the WSOP Main Event is more expensive than their Circuit events which run year round.
The Championship events are £75 and the side events are ~£35/40 depending on which season it is. The WCOAP is £110 and the side events are £55, just like the WSOP where they have a range of buyins for the side events but the World Championship events are $10k, but at their Circuit events (ring, not bracelet for the winner), generally the sides are $365 and the main is $1,675.
Obviously APAT don't use the same ratio for the buy in difference here but you could make a decent comparison towards the APAT Championship events being like the WSOP Circuit events, and the WCOAP being like the WSOP.
However, my main argument against it is quite simple, if we go up to £100 + rake, we're then competing with the likes of the Goliath/DTD etc. Never going to win that battle at all. Also, for recreational players who play local comps down the Genting/G, it's not that much of a jump up from £56 to £82.50, but if they go home and tell their partner that the APAT comp is now OVER a hundred quid...that three figure number is still a big hurdle in recreational poker.
To be honest I think APAT's lost a bit of what it was about. It's become a lot more serious than it was and a lot of recs who play 20 quid buy in's down the pub/in the casino play one APAT, find the standard too high and give up. It's a victim of it's own success, in a way. All the guys who played 10 years ago are still here, and most of them are a lot better now than they were back then, but are quite comfortable to stay at this level. The only spot on the calendar I find is like it was is the Forum Team Event, and that's because everyone approaches the weekend differently.
I'm really not explaining myself very well here, but I'll try and get up to Manchester over the week and grab a drink with anyone who wants to discuss!
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If it's travel and accommodation that drives us then maybe we should have all the events in the cheapest place...Blackpool?! :D
On a more serious matter I'm against the change to increased buy in. A lot of the regs can afford this raise but it's always been a selling point for recs that APAT offers the best structured 2 day comp for less than a hundred quid. Plus if the buy in for main events is £110, what's the ME buy in for WCOAP, £150?
I'm heading out now so will come back and post more on this later.
Why does the main event at the WCOAP have to be different? we already have a £220 buy-in
The equivalent to £75 in 2005 would be £109 today so it be wont be an increase as such just keeping up with inflation
Erm...because it's marketed as the Main Event. Just like the WSOP Main Event is more expensive than their Circuit events which run year round.
The Championship events are £75 and the side events are ~£35/40 depending on which season it is. The WCOAP is £110 and the side events are £55, just like the WSOP where they have a range of buyins for the side events but the World Championship events are $10k, but at their Circuit events (ring, not bracelet for the winner), generally the sides are $365 and the main is $1,675.
Obviously APAT don't use the same ratio for the buy in difference here but you could make a decent comparison towards the APAT Championship events being like the WSOP Circuit events, and the WCOAP being like the WSOP.
However, my main argument against it is quite simple, if we go up to £100 + rake, we're then competing with the likes of the Goliath/DTD etc. Never going to win that battle at all. Also, for recreational players who play local comps down the Genting/G, it's not that much of a jump up from £56 to £82.50, but if they go home and tell their partner that the APAT comp is now OVER a hundred quid...that three figure number is still a big hurdle in recreational poker.
To be honest I think APAT's lost a bit of what it was about. It's become a lot more serious than it was and a lot of recs who play 20 quid buy in's down the pub/in the casino play one APAT, find the standard too high and give up. It's a victim of it's own success, in a way. All the guys who played 10 years ago are still here, and most of them are a lot better now than they were back then, but are quite comfortable to stay at this level. The only spot on the calendar I find is like it was is the Forum Team Event, and that's because everyone approaches the weekend differently.
I'm really not explaining myself very well here, but I'll try and get up to Manchester over the week and grab a drink with anyone who wants to discuss!
Washing my hair mate, washing my hair...
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If it's travel and accommodation that drives us then maybe we should have all the events in the cheapest place...Blackpool?! :D
On a more serious matter I'm against the change to increased buy in. A lot of the regs can afford this raise but it's always been a selling point for recs that APAT offers the best structured 2 day comp for less than a hundred quid. Plus if the buy in for main events is £110, what's the ME buy in for WCOAP, £150?
I'm heading out now so will come back and post more on this later.
Why does the main event at the WCOAP have to be different? we already have a £220 buy-in
The equivalent to £75 in 2005 would be £109 today so it be wont be an increase as such just keeping up with inflation
Erm...because it's marketed as the Main Event. Just like the WSOP Main Event is more expensive than their Circuit events which run year round.
The Championship events are £75 and the side events are ~£35/40 depending on which season it is. The WCOAP is £110 and the side events are £55, just like the WSOP where they have a range of buyins for the side events but the World Championship events are $10k, but at their Circuit events (ring, not bracelet for the winner), generally the sides are $365 and the main is $1,675.
Obviously APAT don't use the same ratio for the buy in difference here but you could make a decent comparison towards the APAT Championship events being like the WSOP Circuit events, and the WCOAP being like the WSOP.
However, my main argument against it is quite simple, if we go up to £100 + rake, we're then competing with the likes of the Goliath/DTD etc. Never going to win that battle at all. Also, for recreational players who play local comps down the Genting/G, it's not that much of a jump up from £56 to £82.50, but if they go home and tell their partner that the APAT comp is now OVER a hundred quid...that three figure number is still a big hurdle in recreational poker.
To be honest I think APAT's lost a bit of what it was about. It's become a lot more serious than it was and a lot of recs who play 20 quid buy in's down the pub/in the casino play one APAT, find the standard too high and give up. It's a victim of it's own success, in a way. All the guys who played 10 years ago are still here, and most of them are a lot better now than they were back then, but are quite comfortable to stay at this level. The only spot on the calendar I find is like it was is the Forum Team Event, and that's because everyone approaches the weekend differently.
I'm really not explaining myself very well here, but I'll try and get up to Manchester over the week and grab a drink with anyone who wants to discuss!
Washing my hair mate, washing my hair...
That can't take long
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I get what you are saying about the 3 figure being a hurdle. And the step up from the local £50 comp to a £100 comp, but we are talking about a 2 day well structured comp. And for G to be running this at £7.50 will be asking for an increase at some point as there overheads go up.
I don't agree about the main event at the WCOAP just because another tour increase there buy-in we should do the same. It can be just the same £100
If APAT was starting today then £109 would be the equivalent to £75 in 2005
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I get what you are saying about the 3 figure being a hurdle. And the step up from the local £50 comp to a £100 comp, but we are talking about a 2 day well structured comp. And for G to be running this at £7.50 will be asking for an increase at some point as there overheads go up.
I don't agree about the main event at the WCOAP just because another tour increase there buy-in we should do the same. It can be just the same £100
If APAT was starting today then £109 would be the equivalent to £75 in 2005
Considering the Goliath just got announced today as £100 + £25 (!!!) I imagine if we went up to £100 they'd want something similar - then it becomes a 50% + increase, and that would probably not be as accepted by recs...they'd want to see guarantees on it and APAT can't do that.
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What more do people want?
I dont really see the issue with the buyin levels at the moment.
£34 for tour sides
£57 for WCOAP sides
£82 for tour mains
£110 for WCOAP main
All pretty nicely split tbh - if anything i would prefer to see the online prices increase but thats just me
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My thoughts for what they are worth !
WCOAP as it stands ... I don't see too much wrong ... clashing with Easter will probably annoy some and having the starting weekend clashing with Easter ( my weekend ) seemed like the numbers were down because of it ( twice as many people this weekend ) but the volume and choice of games AND the current buy ins seem perfect as it stands . I played four events and with hotels and travel spent .... ( and no cash ) ..... meant a decent cost was occurred so in the future I'd be forced to play in less events if the buy in went up .
I understand and it seems reasonable if there's a slight inc in a buy in but to double for a normal event seems rather excessive, but I like the idea of a deeper starting stack and or more double chance comps as it's good you cannot Rebuy .
That all said it was once again brilliantly run by BNR and Tom and his crew !!
Finally ..... any chance we could get an event in the capital because since this has moved from Aspers Stratford I can't think of anything and it seems weird that London misses out !!
Thanks Red Nev
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Hi people is it possible to have a game in newcastle this season, also regarding the team game think the people returning on sunday or last 50/60 should be the points winners,not half the field , to have the game won so early takes away a lot of the excitement in the closing stages and keeps people hanging around for longer.
keep up the good work,stay true no rebuys no re-entries
Good point. I think the team game was 'decided' too early this year. Punters Lounge played excellently, and would have won anyway, but I agree it makes it much more exciting if it's decided nearer to the 'wire'.
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Hi guys,
George2loose here. Lost my original account. Just wanna add some suggestions to some tweaks I think could be made at the worlds although the week for me ran so smoothly- amazing how they can balance so many tournaments at once!
Turbo hold em comps- played the 57 one the first day with 20 min level and 10k chips. I would have bigger antes for any comps where u have less chips purely because it means people bust quicker and keeps Ave stack deeper so actually makes for a better tournament experience!
Tag team- think charging the reg few twice isn't great (was 100 plus 14 pee team) I would actually make it a tag event but make it a straight 100+10 (appreciate the double rake wasn't done by design!)
Shootout- make the shootout so you carry your stack thru and continue with the blinds as they are or roll them back to a certain level. This will mean initial tables will finish sooner- adds an extra dynamic between survival and accumulation and also makes it fairer for tables who have had to beat an extra player to get to the final
456 Omaha comp- such a great variety of games I think a 456 comp would be a great addition to the line up! It's widely played and would be a good addition to the schedule not sure if u can replace a comp that was less supported?
Pineapple- think crazy pineapple is a variation of hold em (correct me if I'm wrong!) would love to see a pineapple (ofc variant) added to the schedule
Just my 2c! Was a fantastic week and I will deffo be back next year
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A couple of thoughts for the comps I played.
Deuces Wild -quite confusing, even dealers didn't know which hands had won, the game got a bit "my deuce vs your deuce" all-ins. Maybe make it a Jokers Wild with just the 2 or even 1 joker? I play this at Goliath and out of the two it's a much better version IMO.
I know the games need to finish at certain times and I think it was fine for the evening starting comps, but I feel 20min clock on 10/15k stacks is too turbo-ish for the ones that start in the afternoon. With 18 left in the Crazy Pineapple the average stack was 11bb. This could be down to no antes so less people eliminated than anticipated but it was also still fairly early (4/4.5 hours in).
In terms of different comps, a 456 Omaha would be nice - maybe to replace the Mixed Game Max which didn't get that many runners?
It felt like the numbers were down on quite a few comps, probably just due to the increased number of events so players were more thinly spread? There's at least 4 or 5 other comps I'd have played but they were overlapping. I know this can't be avoided. Can't remember exactly but was there 20 events last year? Maybe stick to 3 a day for 9 days for a total of 27? 1pm, 4pm and 7pm start times or something?
Overall, a great week, really enjoyed it. Seeing familiar faces and meeting new ones, really is a great APAT family and I'm definitely going to be going to more events around the country in the coming season! Congrats to everyone that cashed/won medals and huge thanks to Tom, Leigh and all the others with all the organising. It's a great thing for UK poker and a shame there isn't more festivals like this.
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Buy-in. Keep it the same. Plenty of decent £100-£200 comps run now, so keep APAT unique.
Stack size. 300 BB starting is fine, but change starting stack to 30k and drop the 25/50 level. This will bring antes in earlier too. Button antes is a good idea, even if it is a compromise for the iPad/phone generation who need constant reminding to post them.
2-7 (NLSD or FLTD or both) at the WCOAP next year please. Plenty of Omaha and stud variants so surely can get a draw game in.
Otherwise keep up the good work.
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Buy-in. Keep it the same. Plenty of decent £100-£200 comps run now, so keep APAT unique.
Stack size. 300 BB starting is fine, but change starting stack to 30k and drop the 25/50 level. This will bring antes in earlier too. Button antes is a good idea, even if it is a compromise for the iPad/phone generation who need constant reminding to post them.
2-7 (NLSD or FLTD or both) at the WCOAP next year please. Plenty of Omaha and stud variants so surely can get a draw game in.
Otherwise keep up the good work.
This!!
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hi, my dream for 2018 is that the worlds get moved to blackpool and maybe team to Manchester, as accomadation is so much cheaper and better for food etc. which in turn I beleave more people would stay for longer and enter more events, plus easier to say to other half fancy taking kids to blackpool at easter .
As for buy in increase dont think would lose tht many players as like people have said its travel and accomadation that make up the cost I like idea of 90 plus 10 buyin. and 20k starting stack should defitnely be considered
Online buyin have to go up, think £10 is good also points should be more than just top 5.