Poker Forum > Strategy

Jacks or Queens after a single raise

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evilpie:
Me and Stuart have been discussing these hands a lot recently and trying to figure out the best way to play them. I think Stuart possibly gave too much information and gave the impression it was one specific hand that he wanted analysing. It wasn"t.

Like he said it"s a concept question regardless of stacks, blinds, player characteristics etc. sometimes you can do too much analysing on a hand and forget that it"s a simple case of jacks or queens against the rest of the world.... who wins?? We"re amateurs, there"s no need to overcomplicate everything.

The main point is that someone has already raised and you now have to decide whether to fold, call or raise.

If you fold then you"re out of it nice and safe but you"ve maybe wasted a premium hand. Bad idea IMO

If you raise you"re only going to get called by a monster (usually) so you won"t know where you are after the flop, maybe an over pair? If they fold you have maybe not maximised the profit you could have made. If they push you have committed more chips than necessary in to a hand that you probably have to lay down.

If you call at least it"s your oponent who doesn"t know where they are after the flop because they could put you a bigger range. I would probably put them on a decent ace or any pair for the 3 x raise, including premium pairs (comments welcome). With a low flop if they are on an ace with a kicker your push should see them fold. The only hands you are going to lose to are an over pair or trips. There is also the possibility of you hitting trips yourself which would be nice :)

So simply speaking, a pre flop call means that the only hands beating you with an undercard board are an over pair or a lucky set which are not too many hands. Pre flop there are many more hands that either beat or equal you (percentage wise). I guess it"s all about getting rid of the possibility of overcards pairing and beating you for a big pot.

So what we want to know is GENERALLY SPEAKING what are you looking to do with JJ or QQ (even KK I suppose) following a 3 x raise? - fold, call, reraise or push?? Everyone must have done all of these many times in the past and have noticed one working out better over the months / years so which is it for you??

hi_am_chris:
if you call and the flop comes rags you can stack someone with 99 88 TT but equally in a lot of situations they may call a reraise anyways, i prefer to reraise as you find out more about their hand then if you just call. I dont think folding is an option unless its a sattelite to just one raise but the rest of the plays all have their merits although id rather be trapping with kings and sometimes queens than jacks

GiMac:
tbh there is a MASSIVE difference between JJ and QQ, so I would probably play both differently. JJ I treat like others have said like a medium pair. QQ on the other hand is a premium hand in my book, after all only two hands actually beating it pre flop and only coin flipping with one hand!!! You cant possibly play Jacks and Queens the same way.  ::)

evilpie:

--- Quote from: GiMac on January 23, 2008, 15:09:44 PM ---
tbh there is a MASSIVE difference between JJ and QQ, so I would probably play both differently. JJ I treat like others have said like a medium pair. QQ on the other hand is a premium hand in my book, after all only two hands actually beating it pre flop and only coin flipping with one hand!!! You cant possibly play Jacks and Queens the same way.  ::)

--- End quote ---


Agree with you here but it"s still the same concept. Do you want all your chips in pre flop with QQ or would you rather flat call and see if any overs come on the flop?

If there are no over cards then there"s no coin flip out there just the possibility of over pairs or the lucky trips.

I"d be interested to know the odds against seeing overcards with JJ or QQ. What"s the difference? and is it a big enough difference to make JJ a middle pair and QQ a premium hand?

PS. No matter what the odds are I still agree. I would be much happier pushing with QQ than JJ. Not trying to create an argument, just curious

kinboshi:

--- Quote from: evilpie on January 21, 2008, 16:08:01 PM ---
So what we want to know is GENERALLY SPEAKING what are you looking to do with JJ or QQ (even KK I suppose) following a 3 x raise? - fold, call, reraise or push?? Everyone must have done all of these many times in the past and have noticed one working out better over the months / years so which is it for you??

--- End quote ---


Poker IS a situational game.  It"s not chess, where given a position there is a right and a wrong way to play - and that"s that.

How you play a hand changes according to all sorts of things - stack sizes (you, your opponent, others left in the tournament), blinds (if you have 200xBB you can play JJ a lot differently to if you have 20xBB  or 10xBB in your stack), state of the tournament (how big are others" stacks, how many players remaining, etc.), your opponent"s range, your opponent"s style.

So what might be a +EV move at one stage of a tournament, is the wrong thing to do at another time in the same tournament (or even the same time in a different tournament).

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