Poker Forum > Staker Exchange
$1500 WSOP Event 48 - PLO8
DodgyEnd (Tom APAT.be):
--- Quote from: Chipaccrual on April 30, 2014, 21:44:39 PM ---
Also your numbers are at best confusing and at worst just plain wrong.
Buyin = $1500
You sell 70% of your action, so backers send you $1050
If you cash for $3000, then you should be returning $2100 to your backers (70% of your winnings)
With your method, you are returning their stake of $1050, and then splitting the profit 70/30, which effectively means you are selling your action at a premium.
If you bink a massive cash, then it becomes a lot less significant, but if you only min cashed, then we"re talking about a $400 swing.
Or am I missing something here ?
--- End quote ---
my thoughts as well... i would be considering to buy a piece, but only if the numbers are correct.
Obviously I don"t know you, so it"s hard to judge you as a player. But your results aren"t good enough to justify the markup that you are charging this way. (Again, I might be wrong as I don"t know you and I have no clue of what your online PLO results are; I can only judge from the live results on Hendon Mob).
Riddled:
--- Quote from: Chipaccrual on April 30, 2014, 21:36:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: Riddled on April 30, 2014, 19:11:18 PM ---
Thanks Dan on both counts,
for the record, I"m the ruggedly handsome guy wearing the hoody with the 1000 mile stare.
--- End quote ---
Could you make it easier for us please.
Are you the one on the left or the one on the right ?
I would take a piece of this, but am a little put off that it is a punt on just the one event, when you say you are self funding other events on the trip. Would much prefer it if you were offering a smaller percentage across all of your schedule to help even out the variance for the backers aswell as yourself.
Not a criticiism, but hopefully useful feedback.
Leigh
--- End quote ---
Leigh, you are right on all counts.
The idea is that I"m offering it as a sweat in an event that I know I have a decent edge in, but likewise can"t justify spending the whole amount.
I don"t want to engage in staking in other events for a variety of reasons, the foremost is that I would not be confident of being able to offer good value to the backer, i.e. I will play events that I want to play at the time, not necessarily planning events in advance. The WSOP event is the exception as the only events I would feel quite confident in are $1500 PLO8 and the $3000 PLO8, obviously favouring the cheaper option.
For example, there may be events I will play where I will drink during the event as it is still ultimately a holiday for me. I will obviously not do so in any event where I am backed.
I may also play events after being awake all night, playing any event in which I am backed I would have to plan my time accordingly so that I am well rested.
Riddled:
--- Quote from: DodgyEnd on April 30, 2014, 21:56:29 PM ---
--- Quote from: Chipaccrual on April 30, 2014, 21:44:39 PM ---
Also your numbers are at best confusing and at worst just plain wrong.
Buyin = $1500
You sell 70% of your action, so backers send you $1050
If you cash for $3000, then you should be returning $2100 to your backers (70% of your winnings)
With your method, you are returning their stake of $1050, and then splitting the profit 70/30, which effectively means you are selling your action at a premium.
If you bink a massive cash, then it becomes a lot less significant, but if you only min cashed, then we"re talking about a $400 swing.
Or am I missing something here ?
--- End quote ---
my thoughts as well... i would be considering to buy a piece, but only if the numbers are correct.
Obviously I don"t know you, so it"s hard to judge you as a player. But your results aren"t good enough to justify the markup that you are charging this way. (Again, I might be wrong as I don"t know you and I have no clue of what your online PLO results are; I can only judge from the live results on Hendon Mob).
--- End quote ---
In regards to the premium I am confident that I have a fairly decent edge, however the premium would mainly be to cover exchange rate costs and also contribute towards time and expenses. By putting it in as a premium it means that these costs are only shared in the event of a return as opposed to selling the % at a true premium (i.e. 10% for $180)
If the concensus is that the premium is too much, I would have to consider whether I play the event with backers, or self fund myself into say $500 worth of wsop sats.
My true motive is simply that it would be cool to play a world series event while I"m in Vegas but don"t want to invest 20% of my bankroll to do so.
I hope this has helped.
Cheers,
Mike
MintTrav:
Michael, I might have been interested in taking a bit but I"m afraid I"m still a bit confused.
I don"t understand how you came to the $735 figure. Could you explain it please? That amount is 70% of $1,050, but that wouldn"t make sense, so I"m not sure how you got to that answer.
Perhaps you could give a couple of illustrations of amounts returned for different-sized wins and how you calculate them, so we understand what is being offered.
dwh103:
Note: I am the other party travelling with Mike this summer, and we discussed the approach to Vegas, possible backing etc. Feel free to take this post as biased, or motivated by self/friend interest, but it"s my endeavour to be fair and balanced here.
You"re somewhat right Leigh - the numbers are correct, but agree they are very confusing. Mike"s never sold action before, so the lack of clarity is from inexperience imo - I"ve let him know my opinion and I"m sure he"ll be on to tidy things up when he can.
However I do believe you"re overstating the impact of the "premium" - it"s not really a premium in the traditional sense of the word (i.e.selling 10% for $165, rather than $150). I know you"re well involved in staking and have no wish to be patronising, but for the benefit of those who may be less comfortable.
There is no "premium payable" unless Mike cashes. The 70/30 split is basically sharing his ROI in this tournament, it basically gives him the equivalent of a markup (or premium if you prefer) only if he cashes. A min cash of $3k would be the equivalent of buying a piece at approx 1.08 markup, a $100k cash would be the equivalent of 1.42, though I"m sure at that point no-one would be too disappointed.
As we all should, if we look at the long term:
- If the horse is actually -EV, then everyone"s only paid spot rates
- If the horse is +EV, i.e. +50% long run ROI, then backers on average get 35%, and the horse gets 15% for their time, effort and expenses.
Scale the above up or down, simply means that as long as the horse is +EV, then it"s a profitable proposition for both parties, as opposed to selling at pure spot (where basically the horse plays for free) or selling at a premium upfront (where the backers/horse have to guess at a more precise long term ROI).
In my opinion a profit share arrangement is the only fair way (for both horse and backers) to do staking - as long as stakeback is included.
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