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Tourney hand - comments appreciated!

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TopPair2Pair:

--- Quote ---i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.
--- End quote ---

I am guessing we are doing this hoping for Ax V AceBroadway in a 2 shovee pot. ie...AK V AK where we have a gd edge.

tonyj444:

--- Quote from: noble1 on January 13, 2009, 10:03:04 AM ---
Another spot i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.[I wont call KQ AQ 55 88 etc type hands here as they are most likely dominated]

--- End quote ---


Is this actually a +EV play?  I agree that you do need to take risks as a shorty in order to chip-up but I"m not convinced that this is a good spot for it.  Yes, hands like suited connectors play well in multi-way pots but generally when you can get in for cheap.  Lets assume 3 all-ins in front of you, this should lay you pot-odds of something in the region of 3:1 (It will be slightly better than this due to what was already in the pot from blinds/antes).  Even if we give all 3 villains a loose shoving range of 22+ AJ+ I suspect you won"t be getting the requisite 25% equity (I"m at work so don"t have pokerstove but will check this when I get home).  In reality the ranges are generally going to be tighter than this (especially from 2nd and 3rd all-ins) so I don"t understand how you gain from this play?  You have no fold equity (obviously), are risking your tournament life and are putting money into the pot in a -EV situation.

I agree with everything else youn said 110%

No doubt I"ll get home now and pokerstove will make me look a fool :-p

noble1:

--- Quote from: tonyj444 on January 13, 2009, 12:29:41 PM ---

--- Quote from: noble1 on January 13, 2009, 10:03:04 AM ---
Another spot i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.[I wont call KQ AQ 55 88 etc type hands here as they are most likely dominated]

--- End quote ---


Is this actually a +EV play?  I agree that you do need to take risks as a shorty in order to chip-up but I"m not convinced that this is a good spot for it.  Yes, hands like suited connectors play well in multi-way pots but generally when you can get in for cheap.  Lets assume 3 all-ins in front of you, this should lay you pot-odds of something in the region of 3:1 (It will be slightly better than this due to what was already in the pot from blinds/antes).  Even if we give all 3 villains a loose shoving range of 22+ AJ+ I suspect you won"t be getting the requisite 25% equity (I"m at work so don"t have pokerstove but will check this when I get home).  In reality the ranges are generally going to be tighter than this (especially from 2nd and 3rd all-ins) so I don"t understand how you gain from this play?  You have no fold equity (obviously), are risking your tournament life and are putting money into the pot in a -EV situation.

I agree with everything else youn said 110%

No doubt I"ll get home now and pokerstove will make me look a fool :-p

--- End quote ---


I did say gamble  ;D  to explain myself better the situation has to right i.e the opponents ranges should be wide and it is beneficial for me to triple or quadruple up.
On or near ish the bubble where if i win will help me push deeper in the tourny or when it is actually in the money and if i win helps me get even deeper...
It is not something i use with regularity but sometimes these spots crop up and i have benefited from it  ;D

Th9h - 35.579%
AcKd - 39.247%
AsQs - 25.174%     as you can see certain situations are worth it

and if you get it totally wrong such as -

Th9h - 19.291%
AcKd - 4.970%
QhQs - 17.693%
AdAh - 58.046%   but 4to1 to quadruple up say early in the money when i am short stack is ok for me,some may disagree...but this is my choice.

TopPair2Pair:
Pairs have a real bearing here. I think you need some excellent end game/bubble stats on a player+good notes+reading skills to really utilise this... and if your gonna bang these out then you gta be certain that X amount of the time you do it with chips returning to you, you must go on to win the whole thing imo


10,265,098   H1/H0;+99-22            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    27.53%   26.58%   0.95%   2728324       97307.92   { 99-22, AKs, AKo }
H1:    28.63%   27.59%   1.04%   2832300      106388.08   { 99-22, ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    24.40%   23.77%   0.62%   2440215       64132.25   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    19.45%   18.68%   0.77%   1917046       79385.75   { random }

10,154,386   H1/H0;QQ+            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    38.83%   36.44%   2.39%   3699920      243079.92   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
H1:    25.80%   23.35%   2.46%   2370625      249384.25   { QQ+, ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    20.38%   20.00%   0.38%   2030458       38660.08   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    14.99%   14.45%   0.55%   1466863       55395.75   { random }

10,212,359   H1/H0;JJ+            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    37.80%   36.21%   1.60%   3697406      163032.67   { TT+, AKs, AKo }
H1:    29.32%   27.67%   1.65%   2825520      168869.00   { TT+, ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    18.25%   17.89%   0.36%   1827050       36799.33   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    14.63%   14.11%   0.52%   1440746       52936.00   { random }

10,191,266   H1/H0;!Pairs            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    32.05%   26.36%   5.68%   2686845      579060.00   { AKs, AKo }
H1:    19.79%   14.09%   5.70%   1435807      581209.83   { ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    27.95%   27.42%   0.52%   2794672       53310.83   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    20.22%   19.48%   0.74%   1985453       74909.33   { random }

10,188,735   H2; -ATs, Ajo            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    29.23%   20.55%   8.68%   2093616      884190.67   { AKs, AKo }
H1:    20.58%   11.92%   8.66%   1214456      882117.67   { AQs+, AQo+ }
H2:    29.54%   29.04%   0.50%   2958621       51316.00   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    20.66%   19.92%   0.73%   2029719       74865.67   { random }

10,262,731   2ops            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    37.90%   25.85%   12.05%   2652742     1236780.83   { AKs, AKo }
H1:    25.35%   13.30%   12.05%   1364838     1236780.83   { AQs+, AQo+ }
H2:    36.75%   36.62%   0.13%   3758470       13429.33   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }

noble1:
like i said 2to1  to  4to1 is ok for me in certain situations to chip up 3x or 4x my stack.
This if it comes up is far more significant than a basic double up when the blinds/antes are high and within 2 orbits you are desperate again...

maths is a solid base to form certain plays around say in cash games where the long term view is taken or in SNG"s when there are 5 or 4 left but basic ICM for mtt"s is a totally different beast and a lot of your cash/sng ideas should go out the window imo...

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