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deanp27:
standard - nh gg wp etc

Marty719:

--- Quote from: George2Loose on May 10, 2009, 19:46:59 PM ---
Problem with open shoving Steve is that unless he is very bad he"s almost never calling off with worse.

3 betting here is to hopefully getting him to shove with the lower end of his range.

Also means that if we want to 3 bet bluff in future we have to risk our entire stack

--- End quote ---



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this

Shoving just gives him the opportunity to get away from lesser hands.  U always want to give ur opponent imaginary fold equity when u have a hand so he can push w/ a wider range and get it in light a good percentage of the time.  I think his reshoving range here is prob 99+ and AQ+, but as stated, due to no previous reads then the range could be even wider.

kinboshi:

Marty719:

--- Quote from: kinboshi on May 11, 2009, 12:18:17 PM ---
I would flat pre here (most of the time), but shoving is also good.  The reason being you can also do it with ATC (although you might want to reduce the range a little) if it means people are going to fold most of their hands.  So the shove is effectively turning AK into a bluff - but against anything other than AA or KK, you"re either a big favourite or small underdog if you are called.  So it"s a "safe" bluff.

--- End quote ---


Remember we have players behind us as well.  Prob not advisable w/ atc, or to do this as a bluff.  We are literally value raising this spot if we r raising (tho I still agree tht against a blank canvas utg then f/c"n is the better option).  Also...I don"t think u r getting value from hands u have in bad shape w/ the shove whereas u r giving them rope w/ the r/r.

noble1:
calling is ok if we were deeper imo but when in low 20bb"s area the only reason we have to call is to hope for a rr from behind so that we can get em in..
If no callers we will miss the flop 2/3"s of the time and villain may well c-bet ............. as long as we have a plan for this beforehand to call/bet + be committed if we miss no matter what... then ok"ish


--- Quote ---Also...I don"t think u r getting value from hands u have in bad shape w/ the shove whereas u r giving them rope w/ the r/r.
--- End quote ---


my logic can be a bit srewey sometimes but how do we know that if we miss or hit the flop with top pair that we will get any value without knowing villains style or range?
Our stack size / size of pot imo does not allow for much maneuver so the only way imo to extract anything here is to re-raise and call any shove - if he only flats then no matter the action on the flop we are committed to a showdown or taking the pot down.. or shove pre - which is not only going to get action from better hands that is very dependent on our image and how villains behind perceive it as well as how big there stacks are..the re-raise/shove imo is as you put it more +ev in long term/big picture/future hands...

Being fundamentally sound and playing str8 forward is all well and good but only gets you so far..but every now and again you need to break away from our own and others std school of thought and do the opposite.. much like the theory ""everyone is playing tight so we play loose"" ...

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