Poker Forum > Strategy
Cash Game Hand on Betfair - I have QQ.
Marty719:
Fold/giving up is obv a mistake when we crush villains range. Bet bet bet is def the best for value here. The info we have is that a nl20 player flatted our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop. I"d love to know what ur value range is here is qq is not in it. Always remember that ppl are stations and let them act accordingly.
Ps bet bet bet may be worse in a mtt, but in cash value is key.
noble1:
--- Quote from: Marty719 on December 28, 2010, 19:13:21 PM ---
Fold/giving up is obv a mistake when we crush villains range. Bet bet bet is def the best for value here. The info we have is that a nl20 player flatter our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop. I"d live to know what ur value range is here is qq is not in it. Always remember that ppl are stations and let them act accordingly.
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very insightful marty...
Marty719:
No need to get too fancy in these spots. Poker is a game that is easy to over complicate.
noble1:
--- Quote from: Marty719 on December 28, 2010, 20:24:23 PM ---
No need to get too fancy in these spots. Poker is a game that is easy to over complicate.
--- End quote ---
I always thought thats it's more important that you understand why you're doing something than just to know what to do in poker :)
--- Quote ---The info we have is that a nl20 player flatted our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop
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Value betting is not just about betting to get called by a worse hand, its about betting to get called or raised by a worse hand, so when you say bet bet bet, then how much?
--- Quote ---The info we have is that a nl20 player flatted our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop
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you have more info than that!! he is utg in a full ring game, so that helps us come up with some sort of range, utg calls a 3bet and then flats the cbet with an opponent behind him utg1, hmmm does that help in any way in narrowing down possible hands that villain would do this with? Other info is avaiable, the villains stack size, ok its not locked down logic but he has a stack of 130bb"s+ which met mean that he might have some sort of idea as to what he is doing [until proven otherwise ;D] look at Luckyyyy777 and God Fish, there stack sizes suggest the opposite..
Waz gets questioned in the thread as to why did he check the turn, WHY? i"d say against some opponents on certain textures[when we have reads helps :)] that checking the turn can be good, if our opponent has a nutted hand, then some will still mostly bet out on the turn when checked to, afterall they want to get the max out of there strong hand. So rather than reply in a thread to say checking makes no sense, its missed value etc etc blah blah, then think to yourself when is it good, can it be good in other situations say against someone who has this reflex to betting whenever someone checks to him :) is the opponent over doing the floating.. I find it frustrating tbh when i see in threads the opportunity to discuss different approaches destroyed by matter of fact std forum replies.
--- Quote ---I"d live[like] to know what ur[your] value range is here is[if] qq is not in it
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tbh marty i"d have some sort of read and would adjust accordingly :), without reads and being oop tbh i dont embrace variance just for the sake of it and stack off 130bb"s no reads and put it down to coolers when i lose. I just see it as the kind of board texture where getting value oop is difficult, if i were to take the 3barrel route then i"d bet smaller milking type bets or check the flop attempting to gain position to see how utg and utg1 react.. You say poker is easy to over complicate, to that i"d say there is never a universal answer in poker situations as it is people and player types that complicate the game of poker not the game itself..
--- Quote ---but in cash value is key
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betting for value to get called or raised is important yes but its only part of the concept is it not? afterall position is important, be it being in position so that when involved in pots it enables us to make better decisions, having good table position on different player types is important because lets face it whoever coined the phrase that money flows counter clockwise is pretty much right imho. Being or having position in hands allows for creative play does it not? of course reads help also, hows that for a key to cash or any poker game.. Why stack off oop in these situations at all? the last time i checked, limping was still popular in micro stakes, just winning a fair share of limped pots helps boost any players bb/100, the amount that just check fold when they miss is unbelievable [said in a victor meldrew style] sorry just pointing out that there are other ways/alternatives to beat the micros :)
thats my moan over :)
Marty719:
Jesus thats a big ole wall of text for this time in the morning. Noble - u r always very good at writing out your thought process, but this is quite frankley bonkers. Once pre is not 4b, qq = kk. Is your 3barrell value range in this spot really just Ax? If so, you are losing value in a whole lot of spots!!!!
--- Quote from: noble1 on December 29, 2010, 07:00:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: Marty719 on December 28, 2010, 20:24:23 PM ---
No need to get too fancy in these spots. Poker is a game that is easy to over complicate.
--- End quote ---
I always thought thats it?s more important that you understand why you?re doing something than just to know what to do in poker :)
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I thought it was pretty obv why we are doing it. To maximise profit. Its NL20...In villains pov, once we barrell turn, our range is polarised to QQ+, Ax and air. We can"t just say, "Hmmm, a 20nl player raise calls from utg, a good portion of his range has us beat. In reality at this level...people do not fold any of their range to 3bs, esp when they are this small!!! As for him flatting our flop range with a player behind...again, its ridic to think this means he has Ax a good % (we have discussed why he cannot have KK), when he is usually floating 77+. AAA is a board texture that as the pf 3b"r, we are going to be barrelling close to 100% of the time. The usual stations at this level will be aware of this.
You say without reads, you don;t just put it down to variance and coolers...in a vacuum...folding this is a million times worse. If we have a read that villain is a nit, who plays massively fit or fold poker and is incapable of floating semi-light then we can MAYBE check turn for pot-control. Readless, we have to assume he is similar to 99% of the player base at this level, and "adjust accordingly." At higher stakes, we can play this differently and check turn for deception, esp when we know villains caqn be capable of floating extra light, BUT at NL20...we can value own people fairly consistently. Play a few k hands of it today....triple barrell in some polarised spots, and watch how light we get called!! If you dnt go for max value w/ QQ here then your win-rate will suffer hugely and, yet again I feel the need to point out that in cash games, we do not care about survival and win-rate is key!! If we get stacks in and double up 75% of the time, and lose the other 25%, then yes, we can say the 25% is a cooler as we know if we play the hand the same way consistently, it will be long term profitable vs this player base.
As for your last point, of course position is important, and of course we should tread more cautiously oop, but that does not mean we should just give up on trying to get value. We will have to play hands oop, but when we beat our villains range, and feel he will call with worse, then there is no need to get passive. As long as we know villains range is wide enough to profitably barrell, then we should bet bet bet....and yes...sometimes he will have the top of his range, and that sucks....but it doesnt mean barrelling is the most long-term profitable play.
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