Poker Forum > Strategy
Should i stay or should i fold now....
Marty719:
--- Quote from: Shonky on March 29, 2011, 12:09:38 PM ---
I think he could just as easily have been holding an overpair as he could be holding a 9. I dont think there are many hands he could 4 bet pre that have a 2 in there... therefore i"d consider repping a 2 myself especially being in the blinds and having opened on the flop, by pot betting the turn (maybe check raise would work too). If he calls you know he has a hand you"re either splitting with him or he has you beat. Check or value bet the river, he"ll most likely take the cheap showdown IMO.
--- End quote ---
4bet means something different than u think. BB=1B, initial raise=2b, re-raise = 3b, re-re-raise=4b.
Its hard for us to rep a 2, as we do not have many 2x hands in our oop calling range. Random villains prob dnt think we would donk w/ a 2 either (although it is a good way to build pots vs ppl with strong pf ranges) and c/r or c/c is prob the standard. Also, we do not need to rep a 2 as our hand has plenty of sdv. Turning a 9 into a bluff here would not be good. When we lead flop small and check turn, we set up some river bluffs from villain, so we can profitably call. By playing our hand like we did, we keep some air in villains range. If we pot the turn, all we do is get rid of all the air in villains range and allow him to play perfectly.
We need to be aware of our perceived hand strength in these spots, and how our actions will affect this.
Shonky:
--- Quote from: Marty719 on March 29, 2011, 12:28:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shonky on March 29, 2011, 12:09:38 PM ---
I think he could just as easily have been holding an overpair as he could be holding a 9. I dont think there are many hands he could 4 bet pre that have a 2 in there... therefore i"d consider repping a 2 myself especially being in the blinds and having opened on the flop, by pot betting the turn (maybe check raise would work too). If he calls you know he has a hand you"re either splitting with him or he has you beat. Check or value bet the river, he"ll most likely take the cheap showdown IMO.
--- End quote ---
4bet means something different than u think. BB=1B, initial raise=2b, re-raise = 3b, re-re-raise=4b.
Its hard for us to rep a 2, as we do not have many 2x hands in our oop calling range. Random villains prob dnt think we would donk w/ a 2 either (although it is a good way to build pots vs ppl with strong pf ranges) and c/r or c/c is prob the standard. Also, we do not need to rep a 2 as our hand has plenty of sdv. Turning a 9 into a bluff here would not be good. When we lead flop small and check turn, we set up some river bluffs from villain, so we can profitably call. By playing our hand like we did, we keep some air in villains range. If we pot the turn, all we do is get rid of all the air in villains range and allow him to play perfectly.
We need to be aware of our perceived hand strength in these spots, and how our actions will affect this.
--- End quote ---
ahaaaa... thanks for putting me straight on that. I may be slow, but I"m learning ;)
If you think villain isn"t crediting us with a 2, there"s really only one card he can think we have, a 9 (that is what we have). why lead the flop then OOP and then try control the pot after having given away info? surely this gives villain a big advantage over us and checking both turn and river to him makes us look weak. Would be a good line if we have {2x,99,AA} and know he has a tendancy to overbet. I"d rather try and get some info from him with a re-raise/bluff somewhere that puts him on the spot than let him set the pace when we"re not sure what he"s holding.
Marty719:
--- Quote from: Shonky on March 29, 2011, 13:03:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: Marty719 on March 29, 2011, 12:28:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shonky on March 29, 2011, 12:09:38 PM ---
I think he could just as easily have been holding an overpair as he could be holding a 9. I dont think there are many hands he could 4 bet pre that have a 2 in there... therefore i"d consider repping a 2 myself especially being in the blinds and having opened on the flop, by pot betting the turn (maybe check raise would work too). If he calls you know he has a hand you"re either splitting with him or he has you beat. Check or value bet the river, he"ll most likely take the cheap showdown IMO.
--- End quote ---
4bet means something different than u think. BB=1B, initial raise=2b, re-raise = 3b, re-re-raise=4b.
Its hard for us to rep a 2, as we do not have many 2x hands in our oop calling range. Random villains prob dnt think we would donk w/ a 2 either (although it is a good way to build pots vs ppl with strong pf ranges) and c/r or c/c is prob the standard. Also, we do not need to rep a 2 as our hand has plenty of sdv. Turning a 9 into a bluff here would not be good. When we lead flop small and check turn, we set up some river bluffs from villain, so we can profitably call. By playing our hand like we did, we keep some air in villains range. If we pot the turn, all we do is get rid of all the air in villains range and allow him to play perfectly.
We need to be aware of our perceived hand strength in these spots, and how our actions will affect this.
--- End quote ---
ahaaaa... thanks for putting me straight on that. I may be slow, but I"m learning ;)
If you think villain isn"t crediting us with a 2, there"s really only one card he can think we have, a 9 (that is what we have). why lead the flop then OOP and then try control the pot after having given away info? surely this gives villain a big advantage over us and checking both turn and river to him makes us look weak. Would be a good line if we have {2x,99,AA} and know he has a tendancy to overbet. I"d rather try and get some info from him with a re-raise/bluff somewhere that puts him on the spot than let him set the pace when we"re not sure what he"s holding.
--- End quote ---
I think a lot of what ur saying is more suited for when we have reads on villain. We dnt know that he has a history of over-betting so we cannot set him up for this. I dnt think I donk flop here as a default, but I quite like it with this sizing. It may be giving away info about our hand strength, but it is also gaining info on villains ranges and controlling the pot size. By donking small, it puts the pfr"r into a tough spot with the middle of his range with a player behind.
I really don"t think potting turn is good when we have no prior info on villain and his tendancies. We always have to b/f by betting turn, but we do not know anything about villains tendancies. Just feels that pot controlling and keeping his air in, we can make a greater long-term profit vs random villains.
PantsMan:
--- Quote from: Shonky on March 29, 2011, 12:09:38 PM ---
I think he could just as easily have been holding an overpair as he could be holding a 9. I dont think there are many hands he could 4 bet pre that have a 2 in there... therefore i"d consider repping a 2 myself especially being in the blinds and having opened on the flop, by pot betting the turn (maybe check raise would work too). If he calls you know he has a hand you"re either splitting with him or he has you beat. Check or value bet the river, he"ll most likely take the cheap showdown IMO.
--- End quote ---
He didn"t 4-bet pre-flop. He was the initial raiser. A-2 suited is certainly in his range. 7-2 os is certainly in mine! ;)
PantsMan:
--- Quote from: Marty719 on March 29, 2011, 13:15:06 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shonky on March 29, 2011, 13:03:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: Marty719 on March 29, 2011, 12:28:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shonky on March 29, 2011, 12:09:38 PM ---
I think he could just as easily have been holding an overpair as he could be holding a 9. I dont think there are many hands he could 4 bet pre that have a 2 in there... therefore i"d consider repping a 2 myself especially being in the blinds and having opened on the flop, by pot betting the turn (maybe check raise would work too). If he calls you know he has a hand you"re either splitting with him or he has you beat. Check or value bet the river, he"ll most likely take the cheap showdown IMO.
--- End quote ---
4bet means something different than u think. BB=1B, initial raise=2b, re-raise = 3b, re-re-raise=4b.
Its hard for us to rep a 2, as we do not have many 2x hands in our oop calling range. Random villains prob dnt think we would donk w/ a 2 either (although it is a good way to build pots vs ppl with strong pf ranges) and c/r or c/c is prob the standard. Also, we do not need to rep a 2 as our hand has plenty of sdv. Turning a 9 into a bluff here would not be good. When we lead flop small and check turn, we set up some river bluffs from villain, so we can profitably call. By playing our hand like we did, we keep some air in villains range. If we pot the turn, all we do is get rid of all the air in villains range and allow him to play perfectly.
We need to be aware of our perceived hand strength in these spots, and how our actions will affect this.
--- End quote ---
ahaaaa... thanks for putting me straight on that. I may be slow, but I"m learning ;)
If you think villain isn"t crediting us with a 2, there"s really only one card he can think we have, a 9 (that is what we have). why lead the flop then OOP and then try control the pot after having given away info? surely this gives villain a big advantage over us and checking both turn and river to him makes us look weak. Would be a good line if we have {2x,99,AA} and know he has a tendancy to overbet. I"d rather try and get some info from him with a re-raise/bluff somewhere that puts him on the spot than let him set the pace when we"re not sure what he"s holding.
--- End quote ---
I think a lot of what ur saying is more suited for when we have reads on villain. We dnt know that he has a history of over-betting so we cannot set him up for this. I dnt think I donk flop here as a default, but I quite like it with this sizing. It may be giving away info about our hand strength, but it is also gaining info on villains ranges and controlling the pot size. By donking small, it puts the pfr"r into a tough spot with the middle of his range with a player behind.
I really don"t think potting turn is good when we have no prior info on villain and his tendancies. We always have to b/f by betting turn, but we do not know anything about villains tendancies. Just feels that pot controlling and keeping his air in, we can make a greater long-term profit vs random villains.
--- End quote ---
Agreed with all of the above. I had no previous with him so had no knowledge of his tendancies. Certainly wasn"t prepared for the overbet on the river!
Definitely not potting the turn here. Not sure what it achieves. If he folds, great but if he calls then we"ve got a really tough decision on the river. Happy to check-call here. Don"t want to over-inflate the pot with my holding and by checking it shows "weakness" and gives him a chance to figure that betting out with his AK, AQ (etc) hands will win the pot.
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