Poker Forum > Strategy
KK - Part III
kinboshi:
So why aren"t you pushing pre-flop if you"re shoving on the flop regardless?
Are you giving him the chance to hit a set, or are you going to be laying your hand down if there"s an ace on the board?
GiMac:
--- Quote from: Kinboshi on January 03, 2008, 13:46:37 PM ---
So why aren"t you pushing pre-flop if you"re shoving on the flop regardless?
Are you giving him the chance to hit a set, or are you going to be laying your hand down if there"s an ace on the board?
--- End quote ---
Cos I want more than 500 of his chips.
I did say if he re-raises to 5k i"m pushing. But if I push after he has raised to 500 he can only call if he has AA. If I re-raise to 2000 and he has QQ or JJ he might feel the need to re-re-raise to firmly establish my hand, so i get more of his chips and we either go in with me well ahead or he passes. If he flat calls the 2k I still got 8k to play with on the flop, but if he re-raises i"m pushin.
kinboshi:
I definitely see the logic to what you"re saying.
This is the response from a decent tournament player on another forum where the problem was first posted:
--- Quote ---That"s the wrong way to look at it. As I said earlier, when you make it 1500 it narrows YOUR range. And as James says, we want to WIN the most amount of chips possible.
When you make it 1500 the hand becomes so much easier to play. You have told the table what you have, and you assume they act accordingly. As such, if they are competent you can fold and feel good about it when they 5 bet. And they"ll fold every hand you beat preflop so you don"t risk getting dogged or outplayed and win a small pot risk free.
Needless to say, when you try and make hands easier to play you drastically reduce your EV. We want to flatcall the 500 because his range for making it 500 is probably going to be JJ+ // AKo+. He may also repop with stuff like AQ and 1010 (he probably shouldn"t - but what people should do and do do are very different things). When you raise, he only continues with AA most of the time. Sometimes he would be willing to get it in with QQ or AK but it is very unlikely and quite uncommon.
We WANT to play a flop against JJ or QQ or AK or 1010 or AQ. We don"t want to make a play that gives them the best chance to fold preflop. Plus, we have position on the 3 bettor. So if the flop comes low we just play poker with position on the player who has shown the most strength. There will be 1500 in the pot and 9.5k behind - so we can do a lot of different things after the flop and we don"t have to go broke.
Bear in mind that big tournaments are filled with really crap players. Even many regular circuit professionals are technically awful poker players that have massively exploitable leaks. As such, we shouldn"t be averse to taking a flop here.
Remember:
- Raise if better hands will fold;
- Raise if worse hands will call;
When you make it 1500, it is highly unlikely that either of the above happen (particularly the first one!!). Raising for information is always bad. But it"s particularly bad in this spot. By this I mean raising to 1500 to see if he has AA would just be god awful.
--- End quote ---
GiMac:
I see the logic behind his argument too. There are several ways to play this and each one has its merits. Of course the biggest problem here is that we don"t know the other player from Adam and haven"t had enough time to build up a picture of his play.
I"m going to post one of my own, this time with AA in BB against a serial raiser. Let"s see what everyone does with this. ;)
kinboshi:
--- Quote from: GiMac on January 03, 2008, 14:14:11 PM ---
I see the logic behind his argument too. There are several ways to play this and each one has its merits.
--- End quote ---
Ain"t poker brilliant!!?
--- Quote ---Of course the biggest problem here is that we don"t know the other player from Adam and haven"t had enough time to build up a picture of his play.
--- End quote ---
I think that"s a big part of my thinking here. Same with the issue of calling an all-in pre-flop in the first few hands with KK or laying it down. It"s going to be easy to know if I have KK early in Cardiff - I"ll be giggling uncontrollably.
--- Quote ---I"m going to post one of my own, this time with AA in BB against a serial raiser. Let"s see what everyone does with this. ;)
--- End quote ---
Off to have a look ;D
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