Poker Forum > Strategy
Blind V Blind
George2Loose:
--- Quote from: Santino67 on October 14, 2011, 13:02:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: WYoung83 on October 14, 2011, 11:59:47 AM ---
You are in a way ahead/way behind situation with top pair on a dry flop. If you are ahead then your opponent has between 2-3 outs. So rasing on this flop with top pair "for information" is somthing that good players rarely do. ( in fact good tourny players actually hate the phrase "raise for information") If you are going to raise on the flop, then folding top pair if he shoves is really bad and spewy, Let him keep bluffing if he is behind. If he is ahead then so be it, I would just call turn and river.
--- End quote ---
My point above is that by calling the flop turn and river you leave yourself with around 800 chips, is that not worse and more spewy if you"re behind? You"re also not necessarily folding behind a re-raise shove on the flop if you have information suggesting the villain is bullying you with any 2, missed ace, lower pair etc etc. If he has a bigger king, whichever way you play this you"re done for unless you can get the correct information you need before spewing off all your chips. If you allow the villain to dictate and he"s playing 6/6 or 2/2 then you"ve effectively let him hit his boat by just calling the flop and turn. I"d be surprised if anyone on this forum hasn"t felt that pain on more than one occasion.
"Raising for information" may well be a bit old school but can still be used in the right spots IMO, show me a "good player" who"s never done this in their career coz I"ll put money on the fact most of them have.
--- End quote ---
I can probably name 100 players who haven"t raised for info but I don"t know how we"re going to prove it either way
TheSnapper:
--- Quote from: Santino67 on October 14, 2011, 02:21:56 AM ---
Based on the info you have on the player, blinds, stack sizes etc we really can"t afford to be calling down unless we"re pretty sure we"re ahead of their range when the flop lands. If Mark believes he"s ahead on that flop and turn then he"s got to call the river.
--- End quote ---
This would be true against a maniacal villain we believed capable of firing 3 barrells with air and giving him enough rope would exploit his tendencies.
It would seem OP doesn"t feel that is the case with this villain and that should change how we respond considerably. We flat pre, hit top pair ip on this flop ( K33 ), villain should be cbetting 100% here since there"s only a small probability we have hit. Equally, there"s only a small probability that villain may have hit so we can.........
Raise versus this wide range and take down a small pot when villain correctly folds the large part of his range we beat or calls/reraises with the small dominating part of his range. This is good for villain and bad for us.
--- Quote from: Santino67 ---
With the stack sizes as they are this guy has enough chips to be small-ballling his way to hitting any ace, any set etc etc so why not put the question back to him on that flop rather than effectively giving him a free card?
--- End quote ---
This is the standard logic used frequently to support the "raise for info" position. Players remember being outdrawn, they don"t like it and take steps so as it does"nt happen again. You"ll hear statements like " I bet big to get him off his draws" etc. etc.
Being outdrawn happens and is a small factor in an overall profitable strategy. If you are not allowing your opponent to put chips in the pot with......
"any ace" 3 outs
"any pocket pair" 2 outs
You are missing shedloads of value.
bear21:
--- Quote from: TheSnapper on October 14, 2011, 15:22:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Santino67 on October 14, 2011, 02:21:56 AM ---
Based on the info you have on the player, blinds, stack sizes etc we really can"t afford to be calling down unless we"re pretty sure we"re ahead of their range when the flop lands. If Mark believes he"s ahead on that flop and turn then he"s got to call the river.
--- End quote ---
This would be true against a maniacal villain we believed capable of firing 3 barrells with air and giving him enough rope would exploit his tendencies.
It would seem OP doesn"t feel that is the case with this villain and that should change how we respond considerably. We flat pre, hit top pair ip on this flop ( K33 ), villain should be cbetting 100% here since there"s only a small probability we have hit. Equally, there"s only a small probability that villain may have hit so we can.........
Raise versus this wide range and take down a small pot when villain correctly folds the large part of his range we beat or calls/reraises with the small dominating part of his range. This is good for villain and bad for us.
--- Quote from: Santino67 ---
With the stack sizes as they are this guy has enough chips to be small-ballling his way to hitting any ace, any set etc etc so why not put the question back to him on that flop rather than effectively giving him a free card?
--- End quote ---
This is the standard logic used frequently to support the "raise for info" position. Players remember being outdrawn, they don"t like it and take steps so as it does"nt happen again. You"ll hear statements like " I bet big to get him off his draws" etc. etc.
Being outdrawn happens and is a small factor in an overall profitable strategy. If you are not allowing your opponent to put chips in the pot with......
"any ace" 3 outs
"any pocket pair" 2 outs
You are missing shedloads of value.
you say this but the player has raised pre-flop and then we have just checked top pair ??/, to me as i said earlier I would want to see where i am by betting ( old school ) :)
but as to loads of value any k with a bigger kicker also has us beat, to go all the way and then fold was not for me , would have either took it down on the flop or folded this hand ???
--- End quote ---
TheSnapper:
--- Quote from: bear21 on October 14, 2011, 19:31:37 PM ---
you say this but the player has raised pre-flop and then we have just checked top pair ??/,
--- End quote ---
We didn"t check top pair, we flat called flop and turn cbets.
--- Quote from: bear21 ---
to me as i said earlier I would want to see where i am by betting ( old school ) :)
--- End quote ---
If when you play poker your motivation is "to see where i am by betting", does "getting value from your hand" ever become an option? This is a basic fundamental and neither old or new school.
--- Quote from: bear21 ---
but as to loads of value any k with a bigger kicker also has us beat, to go all the way and then fold was not for me , would have either took it down on the flop or folded this hand ???
--- End quote ---
The "loads of value" comes from the hands in villains range that can"t stand a raise but will continue to put chips in bad so long as we don"t tell villain he"s behind.
noble1:
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