Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: troubled joe on January 08, 2008, 11:18:44 AM
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Morning all, wanted people"s thoughts on a big hand I made a right pig"s ear of in last Thursday"s MTT at Dusk Till Dawn.
I"m not great at recalling the exact detail of hands I"ve played (one of the many reasons I"m a fairly mediocre poker player!), but here goes:
We"re at level 4, blinds 100/200, and I"ve recently tripled up to around 12k in chips from starting stack of 4k. It"s a full 9-player table
UTG - with similar stack size to me - raises to 600. He"s been moderately aggressive, but doesn"t appear to have done anything particularly out of line. I have JJ in the SB - a hand that always gives me trouble. Put him on a genuine premium hand and elect just to call (my first mistake?) as does the BB.
Flop comes all undercard rags with a couple of hearts. Concerned that UTG might have a bigger pair than me, I decide to put out a feeler bet of around 2/3 of the pot. BB folds, UTG makes suspiciously small raise, just more than double my bet (from memory, I think I bet 1,200 and he raised to 2,600). Having now convinced myself he has a bigger pocket pair, I still decide to flat call (again, is this wrong?).
Turn produces another low card, but a 3rd Heart. Decide to have another pop, representing strength (a flopped set or flush; don"t think he"d put me on an overpair) and bet around half the pot - about 3,500. He flat calls. Now - to be honest - I feel quite lost, but still feel he has a bigger pair that he doesn"t want to fold, but is afraid to push with due to fears I may have him beat with a flush or set.
River is a blank and - with around 6k left and the pot more than twice as big - I feel I should push, but instead check and - of course - he pushes. I think for an age before folding and he shows.....?
Any thoughts/advice?
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whaddid he show? whaddid he show?
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Lol - not just yet. Want to get a bit of feedback first. What do you reckon?
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IMHO your call pre-flop was a mistake unless you were only planning to continue if you hit your set. You say you put him on a genuine premium hand so you should have folded and if you were not sure you should have raised for info.
Now the flop is undercard rags you still do not know where you are in this hand as the BB could have any 2 cards. Putting out a feeler bet is ok and it gets rid of the BB but the small raise by the UTG player would have me out of the pot. You are saying you are now convinced he has a bigger pair than you so I don"t understand why you are calling.
Now the 3rd heart hits the turn. If you are sure he was not on a Flush draw then I suppose a bluff here representing the flush may work but if I was the UTG player I don"t think I"d believe it. I"m also not sure the UTG player wasn"t on the flush draw as his small raise on the flop represented a made hand but could also have been a flush draw hoping to take down the hand there or gain a free card on the turn if he missed his flush.
His flat call of you 3,500 looks like a made flush now.
Although I think the hand was poorly played throughout I think you had to check fold the river and guarantee you are still in the game.
As for what he had I"m going with AhKh or AhQh but he probably showed something like a pair of black 10"s. :-\
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I like that analysis in the whole.
I don"t mind the pre-flop call, there are many favourable situations for you after the flop, and you have enough chips to call and have a look. His raise of 2xBB isn"t huge.
You don"t know if he"s on AK or TT (or anything else) at this stage. On the flop, I might look to check-raise, and then be done with the hand if he comes back over the top. That way you save yourself from that fLoudering feeling on the later streets when you have no idea where you are (we"ve all been there).
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Tough one for me. I"d have probably donked off half my stack as well and would struggle to play this hand well from SB.
My (limited) thinking is.......
I"d have put myself behind his range but would 3 bet pre flop (say to 2K). If he called I"d Cbet on that flop (3K) and would not put another chip in after that. I"d let the hand go to any show of strength after that meaning I"d probably lost as many chips as you, (but not quite as many)
The 3 bet pre flop may win the hand there and then which is normally the best chance to win with jacks. If you get rereraised you know you are done with them.
I"ll let the experts disect this post and yours as I"ve only replied to this because I"ve lost chips for england with JJ and want help with my play too!
PS I bet he had JJ too!!
this took me so long to write, that i missed 4 replies
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I can"t fault Zanshin"s assessment of the situation. Well done Derek, you win a prize for guessing AK! ;)
I would have put him on overcards to the flop but less than your JJ - 99 or TT. Would I have risked my MTT life on it though - probably not!
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I would question your call preflop, and what you were hoping for on the flop. The flop has brought all undercards, which should be the perfect flop for your overpair, but if you think you are behind at this point you shouldn"t have called preflop. I would have re-raised preflop to try find out where I am.....
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Doesn"t a check-raise give you the same result, but for fewer chips?
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Agree with Kin - a check>raise on the flop is the best way of getting the info you need on this hand IMO
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not necessarily. Preflop, given that the original raise was to 600, you would need to re-raise to around 1800 to get your info...... If you just call and check the flop, the UTG raiser could well bet the pot (1800) when checked to, so to check-raise you will need to pay out minimum 3600, plus your 600 preflop = 4200 - compared to a re-re-raise to 1800 preflop. That said, clearly the AK is calling your preflop re-re-raise to see the flop, but is highly likely to play the flop a little slower given that you re-re-raised preflop.
Either way, JJ is just one of those horrible hands to play when someone raises before you - chuck them away :)
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If you re-raise pre-flop and get re-re-raised and that leads to you folding, then you"ve made a mistake as you"ve folded the best hand.
You don"t have any info - you"re up against AK (a hand you"re beating), and you end up laying it down?
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Like Kinboshi said there is alot of play (Your M is 40) so I think the call pre flop is fine.
But being out of position I would mostly prefer to raise in this situation.
But you obviously have to mix up your play and if I decided to call this time I would be check raising that particular flop like Kinboshi too.
With you not raising pre flop the original raiser could think you have a worse ace or some such hand and with you leading out and him min raising you he actually might think he has the best hand and he has alot of outs going into the turn if you do call.
You don"t really know where you stand. Does he have something or does he just not believe you and is he making a move?
If you check, I would expect him to C bet and then I would put in a big re-raise with the 2 hearts out there.
If he calls I would be done with the hand.
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I don"t think there"s any right or wrong way to play this hand. The blinds are small and personally I would elect to flat call pre flop mainly due to the fact that I"m out of position and like to keep pots small when OOP esp when raise is from UTG.
The key to the flop is as follows:
If you lead the flop (as you did) and get re raised you SHOULD fold.
However the mini raise suggests the initial raiser has two overcards and a flush draw. If he had QQ, KK, AA usually players on this sort of board would raise big to protect there pair.
Personally I prefer the check/call option on the flop. Again I"m trying to keep the pot small as I"m unsure of the the villian has at this stage.
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at the end of the day, the cards in this situation are almost irrelevant - he had position on you, and it was position that he beat you with.
I think the call preflop was ok to try and hit the set. the bet on the flop was good to find out where you were..... but the small re-raise should have given you the answer you needed.....
Calling the re-raise was the first mistake..... at this point you either commit your stack, or fold. It was clear that if you flat called, then checked the turn, he would bet - as it happened, this occured on the river. When he re-raised you needed to make a decision to go for it and shove back over the top and take your chance, or go with your read that he had a bigger pair, fold, congratulate yourself on the chips you just saved, and wait for a better spot when you have position!
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IMO It wasn"t just your position that lost you the pot it was your failure to define his hand at any stage.
I"m not playing mid range holdings from the SB unless you are playing them either to limp and hit a big flop i.e. in this case trips at least not just unders or fast play them with a reraise and find out if he has you drawing thin already.
In this case, judging from the way he played the rest of the hand, if you"d raised you would probably of been re-reraised pre flop and had to release anyhow.
Once you have bet the flop and he has min raised I would be asking whether he can min raise there with anything big with the flush out? I"m reraising at that stage and fold if he can come over the top.
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Thanks for these most recent replies; just spotted them whilst browsing the forum.
I think that, in retrospect and taking into account the views expressed, I"m happy with the flat call pre-flop. It"s the flop where - as most of you point out - it all began to unravel. Having decided to lead out, I have to work out whether his min-raise suggests weakness. If I think it does then, like AMRN says, I have to commit to the pot there and then by pushing. Otherwise, I give it up.
With hindsight though, I think I prefer a check-raise on the flop as some of you have suggested. Obviously this conveys more strength on my part and so forces him to define his hand (as per problem pointed out by johns). Presumably, he folds, but if he can find the big move back over the top then fair play to him and I have to fold the best hand. After the hand I remember him saying something about being worried that I"d flopped a set and I think the check-raise might have convinced him of that.
I like George"s idea of check-calling to keep the pot small and often play like this online, but I find it doesn"t get much respect and leads to aggressive oppponents putting you to increasingly difficult decisions on later streets.....and I"m not very good at difficult decisions.
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Add this one for debate. Have I massively overplayed JJ here. Comments please
POKERSTARS GAME #18601976026: TOURNAMENT #94566291, $6.00+$0.50 HOLD"EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2008/07/05 - 14:06:08 (ET)
Table "94566291 1" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Vexi (1455 in chips)
Seat 2: SEADEE (3120 in chips)
Seat 3: iguanarana (1415 in chips)
Seat 4: jno003 (750 in chips)
Seat 5: haarek (1645 in chips)
Seat 6: Mattoc (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: theodora#1 (2040 in chips)
Seat 8: Richmillion (205 in chips)
Seat 9: roscopiko (1400 in chips)
haarek: posts small blind 15
Mattoc: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to roscopiko [jd jc]
theodora#1: calls 30
Richmillion: folds
roscopiko: raises 90 to 120
Vexi: folds
SEADEE: folds
iguanarana: folds
jno003: folds
haarek: calls 105
Mattoc: folds
theodora#1: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [9h th 8d]
haarek: checks
theodora#1: bets 300
roscopiko: raises 980 to 1280 and is all-in
haarek: folds
theodora#1: calls 980
*** TURN *** [9h th 8d] [ts]
*** RIVER *** [9h th 8d ts] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
theodora#1: shows [tc td] (four of a kind, Tens)
roscopiko: shows [jd jc] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
theodora#1 collected 2950 from pot
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Check/call on the flop would"ve been my suggestion as well George. I think it then puts a doubt in the other player"s mind as to whether or not you may have a monster, while at the same time keeping the pot small enough to get off the 3 hearts on the turn if UTG put a "call-me" bet in to the pot..
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Simply
Against raises unless you have position play jd jh like 6c 6d and fold if you miss. You will save a lot more than you lose
Ming the Simple
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Hi Ross, hope life"s good mate and I"ll get a chance to catch up with you at The Vic
Here"s my tuppence worth - You raised pre-flop and Theodora then called you, At this point I think I may have become concerned about their previous under the gun limp........you were still ahead, but I"d still be suspicious. Jacks are horrible cards, do you limp, raise, over-bet??? IMO having lost too many times with them I believe it"s better to try and keep it cheap.
The biggest problem is that there are very few flops you"ll be happy to see, so keeping it cheap should make it easier to throw them away. Unfortunately the flop you got looked too good. You have an over-pair to the board plus an up & down straight draw............but on the other hand there are so many draws out there. Given that Theodora bet 300 into a 390 pot, you"re now looking at a pot that"s bigger than it should be and too tempting to let go of. A flat call would still have left you with close to a thousand chips and position to see what Theodora would"ve done on the river.
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My Hooks got busted in a live MMT the other day as well... I see a reoccuring theme here!
I am probably the worst person to give out advice but regarding the original hand I would say if your are going to play from the sb then you gotta be prepared to use it to your advantage and lead out with it. piddle in the breeze and see if your sneakers get coated!
if your out of position then your out of position you cant get up and swap seats with anyone but you can act first, and I personally prefer acting first shrewdly in this scenario. Its not something I would do often at the level you mentioned but its something I personally would considering the flop came low I had over pairs and I didn"t think the fella had premium pockets...
Okay i"ll go to sleep now before ppl start abusing my logic!
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I don"t mind the call with JJ, you are out of position and have put him on a premium hand. What you are hoping for is to hit your set. I also like your feeler bet when the board comes all rags, however when he raises you must figure him for AA or KK. Now you have to hit a jack to go ahead. You asked the question but failed to listen to the answer. Its a fold now, you have only done about 1,200 of you stack and you still have lots of chips left at this stage of the tournament. The problem with calling the raise is what do you do on the turn if you don"t hit your jack? No need to get too involved with your chips at this stage with blinds only 100-200.
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1st situation live play
there are different ways of playing this situation.but what i"d suggest to you is develop a little more aggression, JJ is a top 5 starting hand facing a utg raiser [depending on your read on him] you are out of position so calling imo is weak , a raise pre flop is 1st taking control of the hand and also you are getting info on what the utg villians likely holdings are, a smooth call by him and now the chances of a bigger pair are not so high.
The flop is a good for you , the bet of 2/3 pot is also ok but he min raises ?? on a 2 suit flop to me smells just over cards [feeling you out !!] if he had a big pair he would jam it up a lot more than a min raise [he could put you on a flush draw remember ] and also if he had 2 high overcards suited would he not make a bigger raise [strong flush draw and 2 overs not bad hand you know] and take the hand down on the flop !!
At this point on the flop I"d re-raise him back strong [take the pot down] because 1 i do not put him on a bigger pair and 2 also i"ve discounted the flush draw so what i am doing is protecting my hand against the chance of him hitting one of his over cards Ace king queen and if the donk wants to call here or reaise all in back, you are a 3/1 favourite to win the hand.
hope my thoughts on this situation help you in some way.