Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Erimus on February 27, 2012, 10:28:21 AM
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10k gteed Stars $33, 15 left i have 51 bigs villain just come to the table no hands on him, questions are
1) Is 3 bet too small ? if so how much do you 3 bet here or is flatting an option ?
2) After flop should i lead out here or take the free card after villain has checked ?
I bet 12k into 25k pot on the turn, again too small or would you bet bigger ?
The river bricked here for me, he lead out, i folded, is K high any good here do you think ? looking at board and without any info fairly sure he has A high hand and could of easily connected with this board, had 40 bigs left so thought the fold was the better option.
pokerStars Hand #75631390275: Tournament #560010193, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2012/02/24 13:54:59
Table "560010193 19" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: cohen8 (70836 in chips)
Seat 2: ship"em84 (73545 in chips)
Seat 3: Starshii (60708 in chips)
Seat 4: vvbunde (89052 in chips)
Seat 5: erimus14 (103356 in chips)
Seat 6: brdave (69468 in chips)
Seat 7: aJarov (28056 in chips)
Seat 8: b&mAKQJA (78180 in chips)
Seat 9: kalimist (89726 in chips)
cohen8: posts the ante 200
ship"em84: posts the ante 200
Starshii: posts the ante 200
vvbunde: posts the ante 200
erimus14: posts the ante 200
brdave: posts the ante 200
aJarov: posts the ante 200
b&mAKQJA: posts the ante 200
kalimist: posts the ante 200
erimus14: posts small blind 1000
brdave: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to erimus14 [Qh Kh]
aJarov: folds
b&mAKQJA: folds
kalimist: folds
cohen8: folds
ship"em84: folds
Starshii: folds
vvbunde: raises 2500 to 4500
erimus14: raises 6500 to 11000
brdave: folds
vvbunde: calls 6500
*** FLOP *** [ 10h 4h 7c]
erimus14: checks
vvbunde: checks
*** TURN *** [ 10h 4h 7c] [6s]
erimus14: bets 12000
vvbunde: calls 12000
*** RIVER *** [10h 4h 7c 6s] [10c]
erimus14: checks
vvbunde: bets 22000
erimus14: folds
Uncalled bet (22000) returned to vvbunde
vvbunde collected 49800 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 49800 | Rake 0
Board [Th 4h 7c 6s Tc]
Seat 1: cohen8 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 2: ship"em84 folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: Starshii folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 4: vvbunde (button) collected (49800)
Seat 5: erimus14 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: brdave (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: aJarov folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: b&mAKQJA folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 9: kalimist folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
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If you are 3betting pre I am definitely c-betting this flop
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Your 3b size pre mandates that he calls you with any two cards, and then he has position on you for the rest of the hand. If he were the cutoff and you were the button, I would like your 3b size, as you would be playing position..... therefore I think I either 3b more pre, or without any info on the guy, and being out of position, folding is also fine.
As played, having 3b pre, I"m never checking that flop unless the intention is to check-raise (probably check-shove), but we don"t know whether he has a tendency to check behind or to play aggressively.... so better to take the aggressive line from the outset and c-bet.... at this point, having 3b oop and followed with a c-bet, you are repping a pretty strong holding, and a weak player will fold a lot of the time..... but it then comes back to you not have any info about the guy and whether he is a weak player, or someone who may call pre in position and then float your c-bet.
tbh, with 50 BBs, playing oop against an unknown player, I think there is a strong argument for folding pre.
Once it gets to the river, you cannot make an informed decision as to how often your king hi may be good, as you have no info to refer back to about his floaty/bluffy/trappy type tendencies.
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If you are 3betting pre I am definitely c-betting this flop
In hindsight c betting the flop and re assessing the turn prob should be the way to go, ty for your input.
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Your 3b size pre mandates that he calls you with any two cards, and then he has position on you for the rest of the hand. If he were the cutoff and you were the button, I would like your 3b size, as you would be playing position..... therefore I think I either 3b more pre, or without any info on the guy, and being out of position, folding is also fine.
As played, having 3b pre, I"m never checking that flop unless the intention is to check-raise (probably check-shove), but we don"t know whether he has a tendency to check behind or to play aggressively.... so better to take the aggressive line from the outset and c-bet.... at this point, having 3b oop and followed with a c-bet, you are repping a pretty strong holding, and a weak player will fold a lot of the time..... but it then comes back to you not have any info about the guy and whether he is a weak player, or someone who may call pre in position and then float your c-bet.
tbh, with 50 BBs, playing oop against an unknown player, I think there is a strong argument for folding pre.
Once it gets to the river, you cannot make an informed decision as to how often your king hi may be good, as you have no info to refer back to about his floaty/bluffy/trappy type tendencies.
Cheers ste, just checked on hem, I was button, villain was cut off but agree about the 3 bet size, i was giving him decent odds to call, but with 50 bigs didn"t want to get it all in with KQ off, that"s probably the nittier side of me coming in to play, although with him only calling the 3 bet didn"t put him on AK or AQ so could of been good, ty for your input
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just checked on hem, I was button
That would make a massive difference to the responses you would get - however your Hand History in the original post says "erimus14: posts small blind 1000"
The rest of the HH shows you acting first, so you must be SB, not button.
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just checked on hem, I was button
That would make a massive difference to the responses you would get - however your Hand History in the original post says "erimus14: posts small blind 1000"
The rest of the HH shows you acting first, so you must be SB, not button.
sorry my bad was small blind, i was convinced i was button thats were it went wrong lol.
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3Bet size is fine btw and I also think calling pre is fine, not folding though ever preflop. KQs is just about the prettiest starting hand ever in no limit hold"em.
I bet/3bet the flop or barrel turn if called. As played I would just give up as you did, without any further specific info
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Also k hi beats absolutely nothing that he floats with except j9hh. Calling river is out of the question and c/raise bluff is too unlikely unless he value bets really thin but you rep nothing by the river
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3 bet size is fine. Villain has position so will call with a decent amount of his opening range.
This is a good flop for you, so c betting the flop is a must. If that is flatted then I would use reads/tendencies to decide whether I carry on or not. Without reads, I check give up.
Your line was ok though and lost the same though
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My clip would be empty....
Checking this flop as other people have stated is pretty criminal. Even if we r trying to go for the flop c/r, we rep very little. B/3B is def my prefered line on this flop, or if flatted, Im gng to continue on pretty much every turn except 10"s. The fact that we are down to the final 15, will increase our fold equity massively and not exploiting these situations at this stages in tournaments will often be the difference between top 3 finishes, and frustrating "almost there" finishes...
Another good reason for bet/calling flop, is we can get inferior draws to jam. He has very few nfd"s as we expect his good Ax hands to 4b pre.
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Sizing is fine. Always bet flop and turn.
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10k gteed Stars $33, 15 left i have 51 bigs villain just come to the table no hands on him, questions are
1) Is 3 bet too small ? if so how much do you 3 bet here or is flatting an option ?
2) After flop should i lead out here or take the free card after villain has checked ?
I bet 12k into 25k pot on the turn, again too small or would you bet bigger ?
3bet size is fine, flop is pretty decent for your hand so you must bet.
Why did you consider 3 betting a better option than flatting?
Curious about the pro"s and con"s of 3 betting pre, do we all agree 3 betting for value is best against an unknown button raise.
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10k gteed Stars $33, 15 left i have 51 bigs villain just come to the table no hands on him, questions are
1) Is 3 bet too small ? if so how much do you 3 bet here or is flatting an option ?
2) After flop should i lead out here or take the free card after villain has checked ?
I bet 12k into 25k pot on the turn, again too small or would you bet bigger ?
3bet size is fine, flop is pretty decent for your hand so you must bet.
Why did you consider 3 betting a better option than flatting?
Curious about the pro"s and con"s of 3 betting pre, do we all agree 3 betting for value is best against an unknown button raise.
like the sizing Brian, nothing wrong there. please c bet this flop and bet turn too in future.
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I have a few questions@ the "bet flop and turn" crew.
If we fire out on the flop and turn, we leave ourselves a nice 3 quarter ish pot sized river bet to fire off our third barrell.
All but one have not given a plan for the river. What is your plan? Only Marty has said "unload the clip". Just curious that a lot of people have said bluff/semi bluff 2 streets with no advice on the river.
FWIW, I have already said that any bet on the turn would be based on reads/tendencies. If I did bet the turn it would be with the intention of shoving most rivers. What rivers would people who bet flop and turn give up on?
Also think Brendan"s point about 3 betting pre is very valid. I would auto 3 bet here, because I like doing it a lot but the argument for playing a smaller pot OOP against an unknown is fair enough.
Also question for Brian. If there are 15 left, how come you are playing on a full 9 man table?? has there just been 2 (or 3??) exits on the other table?
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Interesting that I"m in a minority of one when it comes to the 3b bet sizing - everyone else seem to think it"s fine...
My point is that by 3betting small, there is no incentive for him to fold, meaning we are guaranteeing his call, and are then going to have to play the rest of the hand out of position against an unknown random. It"s hard enough to play oop against someone when we have reads and known tendencies, but with no prior info, it"s pretty damned awkward.
So, is there really no merit in taking the hand down here and now with a larger 3bet??
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Interesting that I"m in a minority of one when it comes to the 3b bet sizing - everyone else seem to think it"s fine...
My point is that by 3betting small, there is no incentive for him to fold, meaning we are guaranteeing his call, and are then going to have to play the rest of the hand out of position against an unknown random. It"s hard enough to play oop against someone when we have reads and known tendencies, but with no prior info, it"s pretty damned awkward.
So, is there really no merit in taking the hand down here and now with a larger 3bet??
Steve if you"re always peeling 3 bets of this sizing from the sb even in pos it"s probably a pretty big leak.
We"re probably 3 betting the bottom of our range here. I see no incentive in trying to take down the pot pre when we"re not really ever gonna be light from the sb unless there"s some sort of history
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I have a few questions@ the "bet flop and turn" crew.
If we fire out on the flop and turn, we leave ourselves a nice 3 quarter ish pot sized river bet to fire off our third barrell.
All but one have not given a plan for the river. What is your plan? Only Marty has said "unload the clip". Just curious that a lot of people have said bluff/semi bluff 2 streets with no advice on the river.
FWIW, I have already said that any bet on the turn would be based on reads/tendencies. If I did bet the turn it would be with the intention of shoving most rivers. What rivers would people who bet flop and turn give up on?
Also think Brendan"s point about 3 betting pre is very valid. I would auto 3 bet here, because I like doing it a lot but the argument for playing a smaller pot OOP against an unknown is fair enough.
Also question for Brian. If there are 15 left, how come you are playing on a full 9 man table?? has there just been 2 (or 3??) exits on the other table?
I mean there are a number of board rivers that I empty the clip. Some I don"t. On this board run out I"d actually give up.
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10k gteed Stars $33, 15 left i have 51 bigs villain just come to the table no hands on him, questions are
1) Is 3 bet too small ? if so how much do you 3 bet here or is flatting an option ?
2) After flop should i lead out here or take the free card after villain has checked ?
I bet 12k into 25k pot on the turn, again too small or would you bet bigger ?
3bet size is fine, flop is pretty decent for your hand so you must bet.
Why did you consider 3 betting a better option than flatting?
Curious about the pro"s and con"s of 3 betting pre, do we all agree 3 betting for value is best against an unknown button raise.
Would rather play the hand OOP but with the lead then flatting. We"re just going to end up c/folding so many flops. I"m 3 bet folding against a random but actually don"t mind 3/5 betting against the right opponent
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So, is there really no merit in taking the hand down here and now with a larger 3bet??
2.5x is a pretty standard 3 bet size.
what would you suggest?
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Was final 2 tables might be wrong about 15 left just from memory, one of my probs is lobby watching got to cut it out, this was probably why I didn"t bet the flop and played it a little too passively.
Regarding the 3 bet, like I said he was new to the table and thought I would take initiative in the hand, but I did wimp out of it on the flop, I did not want to get 50 big blinds in the middle with KQ off, being results orientated I did manage to finish 4th for a decent cash so happy with that.
If I did double barrel flop and turn would prob have to bet the river, and that would be with eyes closed and fingers crossed hoping that K high was good, which I definitely would not be happy with, thanks for all the input.
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Don"t understand why you"d want to check the flop but then bet the turn?
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Don"t understand why you"d want to check the flop but then bet the turn?
Got the nickname fossil for a reason lol, thought with villain checking the flop as well, a bet on the turn would take it down if he had total air, but looking back betting the flop makes us look a lot stronger,
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Don"t understand why you"d want to check the flop but then bet the turn?
Got the nickname fossil for a reason lol, thought with villain checking the flop as well, a bet on the turn would take it down if he had total air, but looking back betting the flop makes us look a lot stronger,
It"s difficult to see what you"re repping when you check the flop and lead the turn.
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Don"t understand why you"d want to check the flop but then bet the turn?
Got the nickname fossil for a reason lol, thought with villain checking the flop as well, a bet on the turn would take it down if he had total air, but looking back betting the flop makes us look a lot stronger,
if he has total air, there is surely no need to bet?
Once you check flop, you are really only hoping to get a free (or very cheap) draw or to call a bluff on the river, if that is the villain"s tendency.
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Don"t understand why you"d want to check the flop but then bet the turn?
Got the nickname fossil for a reason lol, thought with villain checking the flop as well, a bet on the turn would take it down if he had total air, but looking back betting the flop makes us look a lot stronger,
It"s difficult to see what you"re repping when you check the flop and lead the turn.
Only a set of tens that makes quads.
By checking back flop you are letting villain pot control all his medium strength hands so he only has to call 2 streets when your hand looks like ace hi. With stacks as they are, you should be betting flop for maximum leverage, especially given the stage of the tournament
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Also think Brendan"s point about 3 betting pre is very valid. I would auto 3 bet here, because I like doing it a lot but the argument for playing a smaller pot OOP against an unknown is fair enough.
I"m not necessarily making a case for flatting over 3 betting Rob, the thing is though, our 3 bet here is a bluff against some 3 bet calling ranges and for value against others. If villain folds to 3b"s too often then his range for continuing has us crushed and we are not 3 betting for value.
I"m more interested in Brians rationale for choosing the 3b option.
My point is that by 3betting small, there is no incentive for him to fold, meaning we are guaranteeing his call, and are then going to have to play the rest of the hand out of position against an unknown random. It"s hard enough to play oop against someone when we have reads and known tendencies, but with no prior info, it"s pretty damned awkward.
So, is there really no merit in taking the hand down here and now with a larger 3bet??
If you want him to fold are you 3b bluffing? If you are bluffing, why do you think KQs should be part of your 3b bluffing range and do you have a flatting range in this spot?
Would rather play the hand OOP but with the lead then flatting. We"re just going to end up c/folding so many flops. I"m 3 bet folding against a random but actually don"t mind 3/5 betting against the right opponent
Tbh I see some merit in having the lead, but we have to consider other factors too. Depending on the buttons tendencies we may illicit various responses....
He folds, we take it down preflop, this can steal positional advantage and some equity from villain but he seldom folds better hands than ours.
He flats, we have initiative but villain has positional advantage and often a dominating range.
He 4 bets, we fold and burn our equity or we level ourselves.
Of course villain may call with hands that don"t fare well against our holding but then we are not really 3b"ing to have the iniative but to exploit his weak calling range and to maximise the value of our hand.
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is flatting an option ?
suited broadways make far better calling hands when out of position in spots/situations like this imho...
After flop should i lead out
as played leading out is the better option [have a think about what sort of bet sizing is best for manipulation] if villain 2bets the flop then at this sort of stack size close to the FT i"d 3bet jam, i wouldn"t expect a huge amount of folds from the villain BUT you wil get some folds from some random bluffs or some tight spewy nits with JJ maybe even QQ might find a fold :) u still have around 40% equity versus villains get it in flop range of sets and over pairs on this texture.. with a double up @ this stage u can coast to the FT and beyond ;D
if u call pre and this sort of low co-ordinated ish texture flops [or 864ccx for example etc] because many of a player will open a wide range from late position if u check and villain checks behind its not a flop texture that gets slowplayed very often, over pairs,two pair or a set will lead out as from his point of view this should be hitting a lot of your calling range in the BB.. [making a assumption here that down to the last 15 in a $30 MTT that villain is at least competent :)]
i suppose we are in the capped range theory area, check raise turn if villain bets out on most turn cards as he will very seldom have anything stronger than one pair and u can rep a missed check raise on the flop, this should be +ev imo and even if villain calls the re-raise a large river bet will get a hell of a lot of folds..
if we have to have a 3bet range oop versus a unknown opening from the button i think i"d prefer to be polarised....
all other scenarios i"ll leave out :) or it will be another essay... :o nice post btw, plenty of things to take/discuss from it...