Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Online Archive => Online Poker => National Online League => Topic started by: Des on March 11, 2012, 19:21:50 PM
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Woop!!!!
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Can we have a breakdown of numbers for each team please.....
no rush!
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Amazing, i reckon its because its on stars. Best softwear and decant structure. Gonna take a while to finish though.
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Congratulations to APAT, and the mangement team, along with Poker Stars
A great start to what will be an awesome series.
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Congrats!
What a great turn-out - Lets keep this figure up for the next 15 weeks!
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A big thank you to the members for an outstanding effort tonight.
525 players now with 13 minutes of registration left.
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Incredible showing for a non-freeroll event. Congrats to everyone here at APAT.
:)
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Des,
What the hope for Week 1?
Would be good to get some feedback from Stars too, on what they think about the numbers
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Final Numbers
547 Entrants
$5,470 in the prize pool
81 places paid
$1028.68 for the win.
4 am finish (probably).
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Incredible showing for a non-freeroll event. Congrats to everyone here at APAT.
:)
Many thanks Mike.
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Des,
What the hope for Week 1?
Would be good to get some feedback from Stars too, on what they think about the numbers
I believed we would get a record turnout Waz, but not 547 runners.
Perhaps not for PokerStars, but for every other major online operator in the UK, that would be an extremely good result. For a non operator to be able to produce those numbers, is exceptional.
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Don"t Think the 4am will appeal to a lot of people.
But awesome result.
WP APAT.
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Wish it was on every night and not every week. good structure. plzzzz dont change it when the inevitable people start having a whinge about finishing time etc.
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Wish it was on every night and not every week. good structure. plzzzz dont change it when the inevitable people start having a whinge about finishing time etc.
+1
the finishing time is terrible for me, but I"m out already tonight so its not a problem (as it will be for most people most nights) and I"m happy for a few (hopefully) bleary eyed days in work as a result of running deep.
You can"t argue with a 500+ turnout - wp APAT
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WP to all on recruiting and making this such a big number !
And most of all for registering !
Does that meann Des getting beer in for all players ?
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Wish it was on every night and not every week. good structure. plzzzz dont change it when the inevitable people start having a whinge about finishing time etc.
+2 and I"m up at 6am ffs. Really couldn"t care as well worth it. Been ages since I played a league game and glad I came back now.
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This can only look awesome from Stars" point of view, should bode well for the future of APAT :)
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WP to all on recruiting and making this such a big number !
And most of all for registering !
Does that meann Des getting beer in for all players ?
can just see Des spitting out his horlicks when he reads this
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Fantastic turnout and brilliant structure, I thoroughly enjoyed playing last night. WD guys
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Congratulation to all scorers and players in the money !
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Fantastic turnout and brilliant structure, I thoroughly enjoyed playing last night. WD guys
+1 from me!! It was great to be able to still play proper poker on the final table and glad it wasnt just an all in fest.
The 2.30am finish for me makes me slightly zzzzzz..... but 5th place makes me very happy this morning!
Cant wait to see you guys this Sunday also
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Felt like we were 7 handed for about an hour - it was a very even final table at the start - so plenty of play.
I think it was about 3.08am when the job was finally done!
7.45am alarm - pretty rude - though I know others up much earlier.
Great work - Scotland FTW.
L
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Well done on the win Honeybadg!
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Felt like we were 7 handed for about an hour - it was a very even final table at the start - so plenty of play.
I think it was about 3.08am when the job was finally done!
7.45am alarm - pretty rude - though I know others up much earlier.
Great work - Scotland FTW.
L
Well done Louis!!!
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Nice to dust off my Scotland boots and kick the ball in the net!
(Like the proverbial turnip in a bag of onions)
L
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I think that's what you call a successful night
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Good final table nice catch in the big blind Louis with the 2 for trips lol, not much I could do except all in :"(
Happy with 6th in the end after being lucky earlier on when all in with 10 10vs AA vs 99, 10 on river lol
Had a royal flush earlier on and only won 275 chips :P
Well done apat and all who cashed . See u next week!!!!
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Good final table nice catch in the big blind Louis with the 2 for trips lol, not much I could do except all in :"(
Happy with 6th in the end after being lucky earlier on when all in with 10 10vs AA vs 99, 10 on river lol
Had a royal flush earlier on and only won 275 chips :P
Well done apat and all who cashed . See u next week!!!!
I have a 2 in most of the hands that I play ...
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Played too slow for me, only thing that hapened on my tables was fold fold fold fold etc until there was a cooler or a beat.
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Played too slow for me, only thing that hapened on my tables was fold fold fold fold etc until there was a cooler or a beat.
You didn"t think to exploit the situation then?
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Amazing scope to play "every" hand in (or out of) position ... structure equates to about 24 hours of play at 45 mins levels ... if playing face to face ... a great two day event from a reclining chair ... smoking virtual cigars ...
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Hi All
Really good structured game, but maybe a 5PM start time would be better or have shorter blinds as finishing so late on monday morning may put people off in the future.
Either that or less chips/faster blind structure, but all in all really good tournie.
also is every league game NLH or are we gonna get to play any omaha or any mixed games.
Brendan
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Really Enjoyed last night was going on long nicely until Leigh (Im taking a break from poker wish he would go back to that now) Wiltshire decided to call my all in for all his chips and proceeded to knock my out with his aq v my ak ,but other than that trauma it was good but i do agree with the comments about the very late finish.
I dont think there needs to much adjustment maybe 4500 chips and 12 min blinds getting finished at 2 instead of 3 would be ideal and i think that structure would enable us to do that.
;D ;D
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what a great start to the league, congrats on the amount of runners. I think the structure is spot on and no changes needed. ;)
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Fantastic turnout and brilliant structure, I thoroughly enjoyed playing last night. WD guys
Brilliant turnout....great to see everyone supporting the never ending work of the APAT team. Really enjoyed it despite my early exit!
Big Congrats to Louis on the win and also our very own MattyD for his 2nd place!
Roll on Sunday!! :) :) :)
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5 PM start redic. Summers comming soon, and we will be in full swing when the nights are lighter because the clocks change soon. Most people do family stuff on sundays (not me personally but i reckon some people around do. BBQs Cricket, golf or whatever) when the weathers good and they wouldnt want to rush back home to play a $11 tourn.
As someone else said ITT, individuals are not gonna go deep often enough for it to be a regular occurance getting up for work early monday morning. Even the best players would be lucky to make more than 1 final table with 500 runners over a 15 week period. And i know that lots of Apaters play other sunday tournys on stars, such as the storm and big $11 anyway, these go on untill 9 AM.
I hope they dont alter the clock or starting stack either because it was perfect.
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As well as the good points just above me - all league"s have their numbers drop off. However hard the captains try this one will be no different - once the numbers fall it will towards a 2am finish anyway without touching this structure.
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Despite going out in the first 40 minutes, I had a great time playing and railing my fellow NW people :D Great tournament, great prizes and great turnout :)
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It will be interesting to see how much numbers do drop - going by last night - it should be super open.
I think elsewhere there were calls for more people to score points - I think top 27 is spot on.
Even with a giant team - you are pretty unlikely to have a lot of runners inside the top 27. (from 547 last night).
In terms of finishing time - took a long time from 7 runners down to a winner - so could have been earlier.
I could live with 12 min levels - would have made the event 90 mins shortly last night - but on balance it would have lost the depth of play possible.
Great work APAT in creating such a structure.
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I think its perfect. Like mentioned above, no one will reach every final table so its not a case of playing until 3am every week. Although, if like me, you need to watch one of your team members putting in a great performance you may still not get to bed until 3.20am!
Roll on next Sunday :)
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I think it was about 3.08am when the job was finally done!
Do you think you could you be a little more accurate, please? ::)
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Amazing scope to play "every" hand in (or out of) position ... structure equates to about 24 hours of play at 45 mins levels ... if playing face to face ... a great two day event from a reclining chair ... smoking virtual cigars ...
+1 -1 virtual cigar lol
Fantastic opening week, great play, great people (even the one who called me pathetic - fish will suffice, thanks ;) ) and hope for much more of the same. 3am wasn"t too bad a finish time, I lasted till about 2.30, railed for a little while longer, was in bed for 3am and still no probs getting up at 6.30 for work. Don"t mess with the structure, why would you after such an emphatic "Yesssss" from the faithful?
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... Don"t mess with the structure, why would you after such an emphatic "Yesssss" from the faithful?
Exactly
If only 200 play the next one it might require a re-think though :D
I don"t think that"s too likely though - the fact that so many people played when everybody knew the structure, and the likely implication of that, is pretty good evidence to keep it as it is.
How many people played the first few legs of the last league?
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+1 for no changes. As many have said, you will not make it past midnight many times, especially if the numbers drop off. The structure gave us the chance to play proper poker.
I really enjoyed it last night, although running into AA twice in five minutes was a bit painful! Also, coming 25th but my points not counting for the team! I suppose that"s why we won.
Roll on next week!
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+1 for no changes. As many have said, you will not make it past midnight many times, especially if the numbers drop off. The structure gave us the chance to play proper poker.
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Well on this thread and other regional ones I count about a 5 to 1 majority in favour of the current structure from the players themselves.
I would hope this consensus was taken into account before any decision was made.
EDIT: I think "some" people are getting unduly concerned about the finishing time for this particular leg - the numbers will fall, the end time will get earlier without the structure having to be weakened and the final summary point is as mentioned that the final end time of the tournament is only going to apply to a few people - and they"ll be different people every week.
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Just before we get into the emphatic yes...
can we just spare a thought for people like me who have to work the next day? I also have to stay up until the end of the tournament in order to get the results out. I cannot sustain 3am finishes because I need to function the next day but I also don"t want to have to give up my volunteered support for APAT either.
As much as I appreciate a good tournament, it does not need to go on until 3am as it is a series of tournaments and should cut down variance and good players should come to the top over the series. 12 min blinds & 5k starting stack is about 1.30am finish and is just as good imo.
Aside: Jon how many people are in your 5:1 ratio?
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Just before we get into the emphatic yes...
can we just spare a thought for people like me who have to work the next day? I also have to stay up until the end of the tournament in order to get the results out. I cannot sustain 3am finishes because I need to function the next day but I also don"t want to have to give up my volunteered support for APAT either.
As much as I appreciate a good tournament, it does not need to go on until 3am as it is a series of tournaments and should cut down variance and good players should come to the top over the series. 12 min blinds & 5k starting stack is about 1.30am finish and is just as good imo.
Aside: Jon how many people are in your 5:1 ratio?
6? :P
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Just before we get into the emphatic yes...
can we just spare a thought for people like me who have to work the next day? I also have to stay up until the end of the tournament in order to get the results out. I cannot sustain 3am finishes because I need to function the next day but I also don"t want to have to give up my volunteered support for APAT either.
As much as I appreciate a good tournament, it does not need to go on until 3am as it is a series of tournaments and should cut down variance and good players should come to the top over the series. 12 min blinds & 5k starting stack is about 1.30am finish and is just as good imo.
Aside: Jon how many people are in your 5:1 ratio?
Why do you need to stay up and watch it? The results are usually available for 24hrs or just leave the tournament window open on your pc. If you also open up the last few tables then you can look at all the hand histories you want the next day. With such late finishes I don"t think anyone"s going to complain if the official result isn"t available as soon as it"s finished!
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Just before we get into the emphatic yes...
can we just spare a thought for people like me who have to work the next day? I also have to stay up until the end of the tournament in order to get the results out. I cannot sustain 3am finishes because I need to function the next day but I also don"t want to have to give up my volunteered support for APAT either.
As much as I appreciate a good tournament, it does not need to go on until 3am as it is a series of tournaments and should cut down variance and good players should come to the top over the series. 12 min blinds & 5k starting stack is about 1.30am finish and is just as good imo.
Aside: Jon how many people are in your 5:1 ratio?
Why do you need to stay up and watch it? The results are usually available for 24hrs or just leave the tournament window open on your pc. If you also open up the last few tables then you can look at all the hand histories you want the next day. With such late finishes I don"t think anyone"s going to complain if the official result isn"t available as soon as it"s finished!
Yep we can do that but there is a desire to have a "match report" from each leg to be used in promoting the league further and giving further opportunity of exposure for Stars
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Your line doesnt make sense JB. Stars need any more exposure? Yeah right, most people (i would take a bet on about 90%) playing in this league would have a stars account already.
And why is there a desire to promote the league even more. We just got 547 runners baby........ and anyway, isint this is a bit contradicting then. If if gets promoted even more, then we get more runners so the finishing time will be even later?
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Just before we get into the emphatic yes...
can we just spare a thought for people like me who have to work the next day? I also have to stay up until the end of the tournament in order to get the results out. I cannot sustain 3am finishes because I need to function the next day but I also don"t want to have to give up my volunteered support for APAT either.
As much as I appreciate a good tournament, it does not need to go on until 3am as it is a series of tournaments and should cut down variance and good players should come to the top over the series. 12 min blinds & 5k starting stack is about 1.30am finish and is just as good imo.
Aside: Jon how many people are in your 5:1 ratio?
Oh yeah, completely irrelevant sample size - but the total sum of anyone expressing an opinion on any thread is trivial compared to the total number of players, just thought it was worth emphasising that the subset of those in a more "influential" position such as yourself are an even smaller group of opinions and a feel for how one-sided an argument is can easily get lost over the course of an extended debate such as this one.
And even though the team captains et al might feel like it is their "duty" to stay up until the end of the tournament (but they don"t want to stay up til 3am) - it isn"t necessary for them to do so.
Plus it"s already been mentioned that even with this structure - the league numbers will fall, so the end time will get earlier by itself.
NB: "can we just spare a thought for people like me who have to work the next day?" - I"m pretty sure the vast majority of APAT players have to work the next day.
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Yeah gonna struggle to play these on a regular basis with that finishing time, great tournament that it is.
Probably a couple of early levels are a bit unnecessary with 5k starting (ie 10/20) but can understand why you wouldn"t want to change it.
I stopped playing Sundays for quite a while due to field sizes and late nights when I am usually stacked at work on a Monday.
Will try and support it as much as I can though
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As much as I appreciate a good tournament, it does not need to go on until 3am as it is a series of tournaments and should cut down variance and good players should come to the top over the series. 12 min blinds & 5k starting stack is about 1.30am finish and is just as good imo.
^^This
For the weekly $11 online league, an 8 hour tournament feels like a bit of overkill. imo 3k/15 might be more appropriate (same as the Big 55).
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If the blinds were reduced to 12 mins the timings would be thus:- (last weeks comparible times in brackets)
19.00-19.12 10/20 (19.00-19.15)
19.12-19.24 15/30 (19.15-19.30)
19.24-19.36 25/50 (19.30-19.45)
19.36-19.48 50/100 (19.45-20.05)
19.48-20.05 75/150 (20.05-20.20)
20.05-20.17 100/200 (20.20-20.35)
20.17-20.29 125/250/25 (20.35-20.50)
20.41-20.53 150/300/25 (20.50-21.10)
20.53-21.10 200/400/50 (21.10-21.25)
21.10-21.22 300/600/50 (21.25-21.40)
21.22-21.34 400/800/75 (21.40-21.55)
21.34-21.46 500/1000/100 (22.00-22.15)
21.46-22.03 600/1200/125 (22.15-22.30)
22.03-22.15 800/1600/150 (22.30-22.45)
22.15-22.27 1k/2k/200 (22.45-23.05)
22.27-22.39 1250/2500/250 (23.05-23.20)
22.39-22.51 1.5k/3k/300 (23.20-23.35)
22.51-23.08 2k/4k/400 (23.35-23.50)
23.08-23.20 2.5k/5k/500 (23.50-00.10)
23.20-23.32 3k/6k/600 (00.10-00.25)
23.32-23.44 3.5k/7k/700 (00.25-00.40)
23.44-00.01 4k/8k/800 (00.40-01.00)
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Your line doesnt make sense JB. Stars need any more exposure? Yeah right, most people (i would take a bet on about 90%) playing in this league would have a stars account already.
And why is there a desire to promote the league even more. We just got 547 runners baby........ and anyway, isint this is a bit contradicting then. If if gets promoted even more, then we get more runners so the finishing time will be even later?
Well not really, Stars didn"t partner with APAT to lose money, they did it to increase exposure and as a form of promotion to get more players playing on the site, which they have achieved and of course they would always want to see more.
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Summary of negative points regarding structure in this thread
samson
Played too slow for me, only thing that hapened on my tables was fold fold fold fold etc until there was a cooler or a beat.
Brendoni
maybe a 5PM start time . or less chips/faster blind structure
smasher37
i do agree with the comments about the very late finish.
deanp27
Yeah gonna struggle to play these on a regular basis with that finishing time, great tournament that it is.
AMRN
For the weekly $11 online league, an 8 hour tournament feels like a bit of overkill.
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Summary of positive points regarding structure in this thread
WYoung83
Wish it was on every night and not every week. good structure. plzzzz dont change it when the inevitable people start having a whinge about finishing time etc.
Swinebag22
+1
Sharplea
+2
xxxMairxxx
Fantastic turnout and brilliant structure
WH1TEHORSE
+1 from me!! It was great to be able to still play proper poker on the final table and glad it wasnt just an all in fest.
Honeybadge
Amazing scope to play "every" hand in (or out of) position
Brendoni
Really good structured game
WYoung83
I hope they dont alter the clock or starting stack either because it was perfect.
Jon MW
once the numbers fall it will towards a 2am finish anyway without touching this structure.
Honeybadge
I could live with 12 min levels - would have made the event 90 mins shortly last night - but on balance it would have lost the depth of play possible.
Great work APAT in creating such a structure.
Thinsy147
I think its perfect. Like mentioned above, no one will reach every final table so its not a case of playing until 3am every week
Santino67
Don"t mess with the structure, why would you after such an emphatic "Yesssss" from the faithful?
Joker161
+1 for no changes. As many have said, you will not make it past midnight many times, especially if the numbers drop off. The structure gave us the chance to play proper poker.
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... I cannot understand how people think that an 8 hr format suits such a small field. ...
A similar comment has been made about the $10 buy in
But I would have thought it would be the same logic that suggests a live 2 day deep stack tournament for £75 buy in is a good idea
People seemed happy to accept this structure when it was suggested it might get 250 runners and end at half two - it"s clearly a quicker structure than was expected there as 547 runners finished before half 3. So why does that then make it the wrong structure?
Does it mean that if the first game of the next league attracts even more runners - the structure gets cut again?
And if the first league game of next season attracts even more - 5 minute blinds?
Shouldn"t the structure be in place because it"s a good structure? And if that attracts enough people to make it a very late finish - then that means people like playing a good structure?
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Its already been put back 1 hour. It was supposed to start at 8 when season was first announced. And Web1, how can you say the format suits weaker players? Its the exact opposite actually. Fact- good players prefer deep structure less variance etc.
Lets see numbers this comming sunday, i have a feeling it will be quite high again.
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Can we start at 1pm Wk 3 & 4, I"m in Sri Lanka 5 and a half hours ahead, 8am sunny and 77 degrees at the mo ;D
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As much as I appreciate a good tournament, it does not need to go on until 3am as it is a series of tournaments and should cut down variance and good players should come to the top over the series. 12 min blinds & 5k starting stack is about 1.30am finish and is just as good imo.
^^This
For the weekly $11 online league, an 8 hour tournament feels like a bit of overkill. imo 3k/15 might be more appropriate (same as the Big 55).
Completely agree with this. For a $11 weekly league, we have got to be looking at a structure that gives 5-6 hours play. Obviously it"s very difficult to get the balance right when you have an unexpectedly large turnout, but actually, player numbers is the one variable that makes least difference to finish time, when compared to starting stack, length of levels, and level structure.
I think that a 12 minute structure with 4k starting stack would still leave plenty of play , whilst bringing the finishing time into a more manageable position for all those playing on the final table, along with the many team mates that want to rail and support those players from their region. (After all, this is a community league ;) )
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Great poker players have bundles of aggression. Weak poker players have hardly any aggression and rely on the luck of the dealer. ...
I think you"re mixing up "weak" with "passive".
There are plenty of very bad poker players with bundles of aggression.
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Post aimed at web1. Jon MW got there first.
You are wrong (imo). Im gonna say good players dont have bundles of agression, they have caculated agression. And weak players make to many mistakes (sometimes beign too agressive at the wrong time is a mistake).
Long structure suits better players. Pretty simple to understand. Weak or fishy players should try and gamble more because they cannont play well after the flop, so they have to take margional situations and try to win more flips or 60-40s.
"5 min blinds bring out the best in players". Dont agree with that at all sorry. It just suits the players who are getting the most hands.
Thread may have gone off track slightly, soz for that.
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Just re-read your post web1. Im already tilted from the poker tonight and your post is tilting me even more.. lol
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sitting there 2 hours running back and forward to the kettle every 5 minutes.
then running to the bathroom every 10 minutes :P
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It"s a fact - a better player will usually beat a weaker player in a deeper slower tournament where the clock and structure have less of an impact. In a fast or shallow tourney, there is less room for play, and luck plays a bigger part.
Interesting angle to say that a turbo tourney benefits the better player...... it"s just a series of coin flips, and the luckiest player will win.
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Not wishing to get the last word in, but here"s a couple of quotes from web1 on the night of matchday 1.
Struggling 5k chips. Suffered couple bad beats and getting dealt nothing over 8d. Had to recover and dealer not helping matters.
Out. 44 on button raises me and I call with AJ all in 3k. Once again Jokerstars bs flops a 4.
I get the feeling that you rely a bit too much on the dealer being kind to you. This would backup your theory that weaker players rely on good starting hands, therefore a quicker structure would mean that players see less hands before there is a need to call off your stack with potentially dominated hands like AJ, where at best you are flipping.
The quicker structure will benefit those players who are able to provide controlled aggression and the ability to squeeze and bluff certain positions, but variance will bite you even harder with these strutures.
In a deep stack event, I would take a skilled, experienced, good player over a luckbox fish any day of the week.
And if you were wondering, I am the latter in that choice.
It"s an interesting discussion whichever way you look at it, and life would be boring if everyone thought the same. And sometimes, there is not a right or wrong answer, just good to discuss. ;D
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"In a deep stack event, I would take a skilled, experienced, good player over a luckbox fish any day of the week".
Me too, unless its a guy called Rastafish.
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There has been a great deal of discussion on the structure; particularly on the Captains board, following last weekend"s opening match in the National Online League.
As a result APAT and the Captains have agreed to test a slightly reduced structure for match 2. This will consist of 4,000 starting chips and 12 minute blinds - a structure which is still deeper than PokerStars own deep stack structure. These changes should see the final table completing around 12.30am.
We look forward to seeing you all ahead of match 2 and as always, we will listen to your feedback following that match also - but hope the changes we"ve made will allow an even greater number of players to enjoy the PokerStars.com National Online League.
Captains please inform your players of these changes.
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Nice one guys! I think 4k/12 will prove to be a much more appropriate structure for this league.
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Will go with the majority but personally don,t see the need to change ,
Not many will make final table every week but heh hoo let"s dee how it goes" :-\
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was happy with the previous structure, but admittedly was a bit too deep for a $11 team game, so am happy with this change
Me and Mrs S will be anteing up this weekend
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Dissapointed.
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It"s totally sensible but totally disappointing - although I will remain the champion of the "pure game" - until it is re-instated!?! :o (I think that is the first smiley I have ever used - I don"t really understand this one - I think it means I"ve just seen a snake.)
L
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Seems sensible to me. I like a good structure as much as the next man, but being a league comp it needs to be as inclusive as possible to make it work to it"s fullest potential over the league period.
It"s still a good structure in my opinion.
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The problem was not the starting stack, but people seemed to lock up a bit on the final imo. I didnt watch it all, but from what i seen they were 7 handed for 50 mins. And the next final table and the next after that will be just the same.
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Sensible, especially with the European team and the different time zones.
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Sensible, especially with the European team and the different time zones.
+1
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The problem was not the starting stack, but people seemed to lock up a bit on the final imo. I didnt watch it all, but from what i seen they were 7 handed for 50 mins. And the next final table and the next after that will be just the same.
I think my chip stack went up 50% in those 50 mins despite never having a hand ... gimme gimme ...
L
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The problem was not the starting stack, but people seemed to lock up a bit on the final imo. I didnt watch it all, but from what i seen they were 7 handed for 50 mins. And the next final table and the next after that will be just the same.
Well I went out 18th and from memory it was still pretty late.
People lock up on final tables in most tournaments, it"s just natural.
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... This will consist of 4,000 starting chips and 12 minute blinds - a structure which is still deeper than PokerStars own deep stack structure. ...
I"ll readily admit it"s not important - but what Pokerstars tournament are you referring to?
The Pokerstars deep stack structure is 5k starting chips and 30 minute blinds. Isn"t it?
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Seems sensible to me. I like a good structure as much as the next man, but being a league comp it needs to be as inclusive as possible to make it work to it"s fullest potential over the league period.
It"s still a good structure in my opinion.
^^This
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Seems sensible to me. I like a good structure as much as the next man, but being a league comp it needs to be as inclusive as possible to make it work to it"s fullest potential over the league period.
It"s still a good structure in my opinion.
^^This
This +1
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Still look foward to it and try and play every leg that i can obviously. Just think its a bit of a shame thats all.
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I think it is a pity that you have decided to change after only one competition.
The first week was excellent, and as previously quoted, the same players will probably not reach the final table.
Would much rather seen an hour taken off the start time, than quickening the clock.
Poor players love crapshoots. the better player will suceed more times with a slower structure that allows more play
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I was a massive fan of the structure last week and was kind of hoping the structure would remain for the rest of the season. However if these changes benefit the league and convince players to stay on and keep the numbers to remain over 500+, I will continue to support.
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... This will consist of 4,000 starting chips and 12 minute blinds - a structure which is still deeper than PokerStars own deep stack structure. ...
I"ll readily admit it"s not important - but what Pokerstars tournament are you referring to?
The Pokerstars deep stack structure is 5k starting chips and 30 minute blinds. Isn"t it?
Oh the joys of playing for 6 hours and min cashing for $20 ;D ;D ;D
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A couple of points to add.
The new structure will be far from a crapshoot. It remains an excellent structure which will offer a close to six hour tournament.
The second point is that part of what makes this league special is the railing and atmosphere created by team mates. This isn"t just about the players who reach the final table. It"s about a whole lot of others who would like to rail their team mates as the final result is being determined. The final table will not get that level of support at 3am but it may at midnight.
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A couple of points to add.
The new structure will be far from a crapshoot. It remains an excellent structure which will offer a close to six hour tournament.
The second point is that part of what makes this league special is the railing and atmosphere created by team mates. This isn"t just about the players who reach the final table. It"s about a whole lot of others who would like to rail their team mates as the final result is being determined. The final table will not get that level of support at 3am but it may at midnight.
Spot on
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The second point is that part of what makes this league special is the railing and atmosphere created by team mates. This isn"t just about the players who reach the final table. It"s about a whole lot of others who would like to rail their team mates as the final result is being determined. The final table will not get that level of support at 3am but it may at midnight.
Massive +1 for me on this point, as i like to rail my team-mates and genuinely felt bad not railing Matt right until the end.
The new structure gives this aspect a much better chance of adding to the community involvement of the closing stages of the league game
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Would"ve liked another week of the original structure. But totally understand and support the reasons behind changing - especially for Team Europe.
I can just 3jam earlier :D
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The second point is that part of what makes this league special is the railing and atmosphere created by team mates. This isn"t just about the players who reach the final table. It"s about a whole lot of others who would like to rail their team mates as the final result is being determined. The final table will not get that level of support at 3am but it may at midnight.
Massive +1 for me on this point, as i like to rail my team-mates and genuinely felt bad not railing Matt right until the end.
The new structure gives this aspect a much better chance of adding to the community involvement of the closing stages of the league game
Definitely this...surely it can only enhance the team aspect! :)
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Haha you lot are like a bunch of house wives. Always going to disagree and have the last word. It is just a difference of opinion, like I said. If you tilt by just reading a message then you should maybe take up Volleyball? :))
Good luck at the tables on Sunday. Unless you are not Yorkshire & Humber of course.
Yep, like you said it"s just a difference of opinion and that"s why the APAT forum is the best place to discuss these things. Nobody"s tilting though, and calling people a bunch of housewives isn"t particularly productive. Just accept the fact that we all have our opinions and we"re all entitled to air them. It"s good healthy discussion that should improve our game and understanding, I"d like to think listening to these guys & girls on here (whether I agree or disgree) has added loads to my game and i can"t speak highly enough about most of the members of APAT & this forum.
Good luck also on Sunday Web. FWIW I much prefer the slower deepstack structures and hate turbos so will be interesting to meet you on the table with our different views.
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Great poker players have bundles of aggression. Weak poker players have hardly any aggression and rely on the luck of the dealer. ...
I think you"re mixing up "weak" with "passive".
There are plenty of very bad poker players with bundles of aggression.
And some of us are very bad poker players with bundles of passiveness
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good decision Des
The more players that continue to play the better for the league. i think this decision answers the concerns of some people but still gives a deep structure. a win win situation.
Maybe you could organise an over 50s league with an early start and shorter structure for those of us that need an early bed time.
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We look forward to seeing you all ahead of match 2 and as always, we will listen to your feedback following that match also - but hope the changes we"ve made will allow an even greater number of players to enjoy the PokerStars.com National Online League.
APAT proves once again why it"s the best tour out there
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If you know your a bad player, then its actually better to be agressive. You give yourself two chances to win pots, either win by bluffing, or by getting there. If your bad passive then you have to just catch cards.
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good decision Des
The more players that continue to play the better for the league. i think this decision answers the concerns of some people but still gives a deep structure. a win win situation.
Maybe you could organise an over 50s league with an early start and shorter structure for those of us that need an early bed time.
Shug,
It has to be over 60s for you lol.
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"The more players that continue to play the better for the league". (cant do quote boxes sorry)
I agree with this of course. But i dont think too many people would of dropped out if structure stays the same. Its more likely that people will drop out if they dont collect individual points during the 1st few legs, or if their team are doing poor.
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What is the thinking behind moving from 5000 chips to 4000 chips.
If you assume 500 runners.
Old version : 2,500,000 chips in play
New version : 2,000,000 chips in play
9 player Final Table
Averages chips - 278k vs 222k - say average player will have 20BB at final table point.
So estimated level to reach final table - BB @ c14k or c11k i.e. mid level 24 vs mid level 23 - so having 4000 chips to start might save you 12 minutes to get to the Final Table.
It might take a few more minutes to play out the final table - but again the blinds grow so quickly - only a level to deal with the 25% more chips in play ...
12 minutes great - but can we have our starting stacks back to 5,000 (next week)?
The rationale for having the extra chips at the start is that it delays the part of the tournament where people need to shove in order to double up or die - the more time you have to build your stack to avoid this the better the poker is.
Louis
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What is the thinking behind moving from 5000 chips to 4000 chips.
If you assume 500 runners.
Old version : 2,500,000 chips in play
New version : 2,000,000 chips in play
9 player Final Table
Averages chips - 278k vs 222k - say average player will have 20BB at final table point.
So estimated level to reach final table - BB @ c14k or c11k i.e. mid level 24 vs mid level 23 - so having 4000 chips to start might save you 12 minutes to get to the Final Table.
It might take a few more minutes to play out the final table - but again the blinds grow so quickly - only a level to deal with the 25% more chips in play ...
12 minutes great - but can we have our starting stacks back to 5,000 (next week)?
The rationale for having the extra chips at the start is that it delays the part of the tournament where people need to shove in order to double up or die - the more time you have to build your stack to avoid this the better the poker is.
Louis
I am in total agreement with this post.
It also allows for looser play during the earlier levels with a proportion of your starting stack, which obviously is lessened by the reduction to 4k
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What is the thinking behind moving from 5000 chips to 4000 chips.
If you assume 500 runners.
Old version : 2,500,000 chips in play
New version : 2,000,000 chips in play
9 player Final Table
Averages chips - 278k vs 222k - say average player will have 20BB at final table point.
So estimated level to reach final table - BB @ c14k or c11k i.e. mid level 24 vs mid level 23 - so having 4000 chips to start might save you 12 minutes to get to the Final Table.
It might take a few more minutes to play out the final table - but again the blinds grow so quickly - only a level to deal with the 25% more chips in play ...
12 minutes great - but can we have our starting stacks back to 5,000 (next week)?
The rationale for having the extra chips at the start is that it delays the part of the tournament where people need to shove in order to double up or die - the more time you have to build your stack to avoid this the better the poker is.
Louis
My thoughts exactly.
Maybe we could have tried reducing one or the other to see what effect it had on the finishing time ?
Slicing 20% off the starting stack and also 20% off the clock after only one game seems a bit severe. Just my tuppence worth.
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There has been a great deal of discussion on the structure; particularly on the Captains board, following last weekend"s opening match in the National Online League.
As a result APAT and the Captains have agreed to test a slightly reduced structure for match 2. This will consist of 4,000 starting chips and 12 minute blinds - a structure which is still deeper than PokerStars own deep stack structure. These changes should see the final table completing around 12.30am.
We look forward to seeing you all ahead of match 2 and as always, we will listen to your feedback following that match also - but hope the changes we"ve made will allow an even greater number of players to enjoy the PokerStars.com National Online League.
Captains please inform your players of these changes.
Everyone has a valid point but why don"t we w8 and see what happens...........as Des has pointed out, we will look at the feedback after this evening, let"s get behind the guys instead of complaining, just my opinion!
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What is the thinking behind moving from 5000 chips to 4000 chips.
If you assume 500 runners.
Old version : 2,500,000 chips in play
New version : 2,000,000 chips in play
9 player Final Table
Averages chips - 278k vs 222k - say average player will have 20BB at final table point.
So estimated level to reach final table - BB @ c14k or c11k i.e. mid level 24 vs mid level 23 - so having 4000 chips to start might save you 12 minutes to get to the Final Table.
It might take a few more minutes to play out the final table - but again the blinds grow so quickly - only a level to deal with the 25% more chips in play ...
12 minutes great - but can we have our starting stacks back to 5,000 (next week)?
The rationale for having the extra chips at the start is that it delays the part of the tournament where people need to shove in order to double up or die - the more time you have to build your stack to avoid this the better the poker is.
Louis
^^^^^^ this +1
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There is no complaint - just wanted to set down why there is no/little need to alter the starting stack.
APAT have done a tremendous job in setting up this event - structure was brilliant (albeit maybe levels a bit too long to get things finished - given the field size).
L
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I"m not complaining either - I realise it"s a done deal. Just expressing an opinion ;)
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Great decision imo.
The reality is the vast majority of us have to be up for an early start on Monday morning (it"s usually an 8am start for me so I have to be up at around 7). The thought of playing poker until 3am is not that appealing to be honest. Playing until midnight is another matter entirely. I will probably be playing all of these now.
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3 mins to go and 325 plus players entered soo far
still and hour late reg but maybe not the highs of the 1st week,,
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3 mins to go and 325 plus players entered soo far
still and hour late reg but maybe not the highs of the 1st week,,
385 with 45 mins left, not week 1, but another fantastic turnout.
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First impressions of new structure are that I don"t like it.
36 mins in and I"ve gone through the blinds 3-4 times, and lost one hand where I raised 3x, c-bet 60% of the pot and had to fold.
I now have 30bb"s at the start of level 4 which is 50/100. Just feels too fast. Either have 15 min blinds or 5k stack would be my choice.
ETA: Start of level 5 anyone who has 3k now has 20bbs which is a believable stack. Now people are already in shove/fold mode before the first break. Not worth it imo.
ETA 2: I"m not just gonna moan, another suggestion I would make would be to go to 4k chips and 10 minute BUT for us to use the structure used in tonight"s Bigger 11, which has more levels all the way through.
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personally not liking new structure. For same reasons above. Think its too much of a shoot to early. Shame, people gotta be up in 10 hours though, hope they are not too tired.
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way way way too fast.
200 players out in 90 mins is crazy. Seems the levels are not only shorter but there are less of them??
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Have to agree new structure is way too fast.
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way way way too fast.
200 players out in 90 mins is crazy. Seems the levels are not only shorter but there are less of them??
^^^^......absolute shove fest.....half field gone in less than 2 hours is just ridiculous.......back to 5k starting and 12mins with same lvls as last week seems way fwd oterwise going to lose quite few players it looks like.
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Absolute disaster APAT.
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People will play the league because of the added value, and people will play the league out of loyalty.
But first and foremost people will play the league because it"s enjoyable poker.
Given the choice between that or having their team mates rail them on the final table - I don"t think many people would be too fussed about the rail; however much of a team game it is.
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Don"t worry guys - APAT will listen like last time! I"m sure it will be tweaked again.
Week 1 was a beautiful structure, but the last 70 or so players took hours to get rid of.
The structure does not need to be uniform - tonight"s structure would be great if there were more levels early on before everyone got down to 20 BBs (which took an hour tonight). I would insert more levels early, give everyone who doesn"t double up an extra 30-60 minutes play. Allow stacks to diverge which should assist with the eliminating of players.
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I assume all those complaining are out.
I"ll blame myself or the dealer for my exit.
The structure was spot on for a $11 team game
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I assume all those complaining are out.
I"ll blame myself or the dealer for my exit.
The structure was spot on for a $11 team game
Well I wasn"t when I posted (am now).
But disagree, I think the structure does need a tweak - how can APAT attract casual players if after an hour it"s shove, shove, shove?
I and most other regulars will play regardless, but plenty of people don"t enjoy shove/fold poker and will be turned off if the perception is that the tournament is a crapshoot too soon.
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...
The structure was spot on for a $11 team game
As I alluded to last week - if you think the buy in should affect the structure - you"d never get a 2 day deepstack live tournament for £75.
People will play because of the reasons I"ve said - and also in light of your comment, possibly also because they think it"s only a tenner so it doesn"t matter - but I don"t think it really reflects well on APAT if it stays like this.
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not sure its necessarily the 12m 4k stack. It just seems that some levels were taken out?
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I assume all those complaining are out.
I"ll blame myself or the dealer for my exit.
The structure was spot on for a $11 team game
Well I wasn"t when I posted (am now).
But disagree, I think the structure does need a tweak - how can APAT attract casual players if after an hour it"s shove, shove, shove?
I and most other regulars will play regardless, but plenty of people don"t enjoy shove/fold poker and will be turned off if the perception is that the tournament is a crapshoot too soon.
new to APAT so have to agree with this......I dont really want to play in a tourney where Im in trouble if 1 mistake or outdraw is made within the first 20-30 mins......much rather be playing a Stars gtd tourney for same buy in.
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not sure its necessarily the 12m 4k stack. It just seems that some levels were taken out?
Was that the case? I don"t remember last week"s structure, but I certainly had the same feeling that some levels were missing.
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not sure its necessarily the 12m 4k stack. It just seems that some levels were taken out?
think Stars have different structures for 12m & 15m tourneys so unless stated in the set up by Des we would have just been put on the normal 12m structure
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not sure its necessarily the 12m 4k stack. It just seems that some levels were taken out?
Was that the case? I don"t remember last week"s structure, but I certainly had the same feeling that some levels were missing.
seems to be that to me. Can"t quite recall that structure either but thought there was 40/80 500/1000 etc last week
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The structure was spot on for a $11 team game
As I alluded to last week - if you think the buy in should affect the structure - you"d never get a 2 day deepstack live tournament for £75.
People will play because of the reasons I"ve said - and also in light of your comment, possibly also because they think it"s only a tenner so it doesn"t matter - but I don"t think it really reflects well on APAT if it stays like this.
good points - take out the $11 from my comment but I"ll leave the rest in.
Still a better structure than most stars tourneys. its more 90 mins than 1 hour before shove mode (unless you have an early accident or you like 4 bet jam bluffing)
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Still a better structure than most stars tourneys....
Really?
I just took a random sample (of, errr 1, the first NLHE I saw in the microtab)
For $4.40 buy in - 10 min levels, but after 2 hours of play (so level 12) the blinds are: 150/300 a40
In this $11 game - 12 min levels - so 2 hours of play (level 10) the blinds are: 300/600 a50
(I put my working out there because I"m not ruling out that I might have missed something)
That"s quite a difference isn"t it?
I don"t pay too much attention to structure - but I do play a fair bit on stars, this "seemed" a lot quicker than the average non-turbo.
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We"ll definitely take a look at this before match 3. APAT didn"t brief any level removals, so we"ll look at that carefully also. Essentially we can have whatever tweaks that we want so let"s see how the event plays out tonight and take it from there. However do all remember that our online Championship events will be played out monthly on Saturday nights with a 5k stack and 15m blinds, so we will be catering for the true deep stack aficionados also.
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Its so hard to please everyone and find a balance inbetween. The final table last week was 7 handed for nearly 50 mins. This is way tighter than normal Every final table is different obv but id take last weeks structure over this one for sure.
How aout 15 min clock (exactly same as last week) but 4k stack then instead of 5K?
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We"ll definitely take a look at this before match 3. APAT didn"t brief any level removals, so we"ll look at that carefully also. Essentially we can have whatever tweaks that we want so let"s see how the event plays out tonight and take it from there. However do all remember that our online Championship events will be played out monthly on Saturday nights with a 5k stack and 15m blinds, so we will be catering for the true deep stack aficionados also.
Just checked my HEM - looks like levels were the same.
Perception is a strange thing...
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All I have heard was complaints. If it was going to be changed it should have been done at the end of the season.
Tonight was a turbo.
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Its so hard to please everyone and find a balance inbetween. The final table last week was 7 handed for nearly 50 mins. This is way tighter than normal Every final table is different obv but id take last weeks structure over this one for sure.
How aout 15 min clock (exactly same as last week) but 4k stack then instead of 5K?
Ultimately we need to finish around 1am, so we might be able to add more play early, but it"s going to squeeze somewhere....
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Still a better structure than most stars tourneys....
Really?
I just took a random sample (of, errr 1, the first NLHE I saw in the microtab)
For $4.40 buy in - 10 min levels, but after 2 hours of play (so level 12) the blinds are: 150/300 a40
In this $11 game - 12 min levels - so 2 hours of play (level 10) the blinds are: 300/600 a50
(I put my working out there because I"m not ruling out that I might have missed something)
That"s quite a difference isn"t it?
I don"t pay too much attention to structure - but I do play a fair bit on stars, this "seemed" a lot quicker than the average non-turbo.
those 10 min level tourneys do have super smooth structures (10/20 then 15/30 then 20/40 then 30/60...). I picked a $2.75 and a $11 with 15 min levels and with 3K starting stacks you were in 20 BB territory after an hour which are worse than the APAT game.
I will ammend my "better than most stars structures" to "compares favourably with most stars structures"
either way - I still think the current structure is fine. I did post my disappointment about the last structure being changed, but accept the reasons for the new one.
I see that we are now down to 46 players with average stacks of just >20BB. This will probably come down by points time and the tourney should be finished well before 12, so it does appear that we may be in need of a bit of a tweak. I reckon the 10 min level structure could be awesome (not 10 mins with this structure though)
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We"ll definitely take a look at this before match 3. APAT didn"t brief any level removals, so we"ll look at that carefully also. Essentially we can have whatever tweaks that we want so let"s see how the event plays out tonight and take it from there. However do all remember that our online Championship events will be played out monthly on Saturday nights with a 5k stack and 15m blinds, so we will be catering for the true deep stack aficionados also.
I thought the Online Champs events were 10k starting stacks...??
Quote from the relevant thread.... "The event will feature a £30 + £3 buy in and players will start with 10,000 chips on a 15 minute clock"
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We"ll definitely take a look at this before match 3. APAT didn"t brief any level removals, so we"ll look at that carefully also. Essentially we can have whatever tweaks that we want so let"s see how the event plays out tonight and take it from there. However do all remember that our online Championship events will be played out monthly on Saturday nights with a 5k stack and 15m blinds, so we will be catering for the true deep stack aficionados also.
I thought the Online Champs events were 10k starting stacks...??
Quote from the relevant thread.... "The event will feature a £30 + £3 buy in and players will start with 10,000 chips on a 15 minute clock"
My mistake, defo they have 10k...
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Still a better structure than most stars tourneys....
Really?
I just took a random sample (of, errr 1, the first NLHE I saw in the microtab)
For $4.40 buy in - 10 min levels, but after 2 hours of play (so level 12) the blinds are: 150/300 a40
In this $11 game - 12 min levels - so 2 hours of play (level 10) the blinds are: 300/600 a50
(I put my working out there because I"m not ruling out that I might have missed something)
That"s quite a difference isn"t it?
I don"t pay too much attention to structure - but I do play a fair bit on stars, this "seemed" a lot quicker than the average non-turbo.
Agree with this. I was playing live cash so not able to devote total attention to tourney (so I could have missed something), but it felt like one minute I had a well above average stack and the next it was shove/fold. Certainly didn"t feel the same as normal stars tourneys and felt very turboish. Was there a level missing or something????
I enjoyed last weeks structure and considered giving up my cash game for it. So glad I didn"t. Disappointed to get a message so late about the structure change too, but maybe that was me not checking emails. Personally think the structure should revert (like u say, not many will multiple FT...plus whats the harm in a late night when u have a nice bink??) or go somewhere in the middle.
Personally if it stays so turboey it kinda puts unwanted pressure on me when playing live, so I"d give it up. Horses for courses though I guess.
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We"ll definitely take a look at this before match 3. APAT didn"t brief any level removals, so we"ll look at that carefully also. Essentially we can have whatever tweaks that we want so let"s see how the event plays out tonight and take it from there. However do all remember that our online Championship events will be played out monthly on Saturday nights with a 5k stack and 15m blinds, so we will be catering for the true deep stack aficionados also.
I thought the Online Champs events were 10k starting stacks...??
Quote from the relevant thread.... "The event will feature a £30 + £3 buy in and players will start with 10,000 chips on a 15 minute clock"
My mistake, defo they have 10k...
Can"t wait for that one - the iPoker MTT structure has improved so much lately, and 10k/15 will make for a great tourney. And imo that is the right occasion for a proper deepstack tourney - the 4k/12 structure is fine for the weekly league event.
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Perhaps the answer would be to use the same structure as the 500 Cap tourneys?
3000 chips, 10 min levels (yup sounds turboey at first) - but with a smoother transition between the levels
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Perhaps the answer would be to use the same structure as the 500 Cap tourneys?
3000 chips, 10 min levels (yup sounds turboey at first) - but with a smoother transition between the levels
this was the one I meant
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Whatever else - great for railing ... finished 15 mins early!
Scotland on fire.
L
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Whatever else - great for railing ... finished 15 mins early!
Scotland on fire.
L
That should never be forgotten, makes a big difference to the feel of the tournament when there"s a decent rail right to the end.
With 454 runners it finished just before 1am, which I think is as late as we"d want it to go. So, without wanting to start any earlier than 7pm, then I would suggest the 4k and 12 min levels structure is just about right.
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Whatever else - great for railing ... finished 15 mins early!
Scotland on fire.
L
That should never be forgotten, makes a big difference to the feel of the tournament when there"s a decent rail right to the end.
With 454 runners it finished just before 1am, which I think is as late as we"d want it to go. So, without wanting to start any earlier than 7pm, then I would suggest the 4k and 12 min levels structure is just about right.
Echo that. Saw a lot of people moaning early on that it was too turbo.... but these were generally people that were out already - suspect most of those would not moan if they were on the right side of those early flips. For a weekly $11 league tournament, it was spot on, imo. There will always be a pinch point in a tournament - in this one, the pinch seemed to be around 75 minutes.... people will just have to learn from that and adjust so that they are not reduced to shove/fold at that point. Just cos we can"t nit it up for three hours before going for a flip doesn"t mean the structure is wrong or bad.
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Echo that. Saw a lot of people moaning early on that it was too turbo.... but these were generally people that were out already - suspect most of those would not moan if they were on the right side of those early flips. For a weekly $11 league tournament, it was spot on, imo. There will always be a pinch point in a tournament - in this one, the pinch seemed to be around 75 minutes.... people will just have to learn from that and adjust so that they are not reduced to shove/fold at that point. Just cos we can"t nit it up for three hours before going for a flip doesn"t mean the structure is wrong or bad.
No I think the fact that the average stack was around 20 bb - and hence shove/fold mode - for most of the tournament is what makes it bad.
I look at it the other way around - I"m happy to play the occasional turbo tournament, but if I"m going to invest money week in week out to a league then I"d want it to be a good enough structure that you can afford to play creatively and recover if it doesn"t pan out (like week 1).
I don"t know how many people are results orientated in their analysis of structure - but there are plenty of statistics to work out what"s good and what isn"t, so they don"t have to be.
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Echo that. Saw a lot of people moaning early on that it was too turbo.... but these were generally people that were out already - suspect most of those would not moan if they were on the right side of those early flips. For a weekly $11 league tournament, it was spot on, imo. There will always be a pinch point in a tournament - in this one, the pinch seemed to be around 75 minutes.... people will just have to learn from that and adjust so that they are not reduced to shove/fold at that point. Just cos we can"t nit it up for three hours before going for a flip doesn"t mean the structure is wrong or bad.
No I think the fact that the average stack was around 20 bb - and hence shove/fold mode - for most of the tournament is what makes it bad.
I look at it the other way around - I"m happy to play the occasional turbo tournament, but if I"m going to invest money week in week out to a league then I"d want it to be a good enough structure that you can afford to play creatively and recover if it doesn"t pan out (like week 1).
I don"t know how many people are results orientated in their analysis of structure - but there are plenty of statistics to work out what"s good and what isn"t, so they don"t have to be.
That is a ridiculous comment to make. How is this structure anything like a turbo tournament. Stars turbos have 5 minute levels.
Perhaps those players that are "results orientated" in the analysis of structure and choice of tournaments might be taking this slightly more seriously than others.
I agree with you that it is a decent commitment with it being a 15 week league, and to play them all sees you shell out $165 in total, but I"m not quite sure what sort of structure people want for their money ?
There has got to be a balance here, and the best APAT can do is find a balance that ticks as many boxes for as many members as possible. Clearly a difficult task, but achievable. ;D
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I assume all those complaining are out.
I"ll blame myself or the dealer for my exit.
The structure was spot on for a $11 team game
+1
I"d want it to be a good enough structure that you can afford to play creatively and recover if it doesn"t pan out (like week 1).
I lost pretty much half my stack first orbit with AK, managed to recover and end up 37th... run better Jon x
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There will always be a pinch point in a tournament - in this one, the pinch seemed to be around 75 minutes
But if you take advantage of the late registration then this comes after 15 minutes. Surely not what an APAT tournament should come across as, especially for new recruits.
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There will always be a pinch point in a tournament - in this one, the pinch seemed to be around 75 minutes
But if you take advantage of the late registration then this comes after 15 minutes. Surely not what an APAT tournament should come across as, especially for new recruits.
Sorry, but defining a structure to allow those that join at the end of the late reg period is a flawed approach. If you late reg, you have to accept that you will be short stacked very early. If you join at the start, you have a 200xBB stack!
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Whatever else - great for railing ... finished 15 mins early!
Scotland on fire.
L
That should never be forgotten, makes a big difference to the feel of the tournament when there"s a decent rail right to the end.
With 454 runners it finished just before 1am, which I think is as late as we"d want it to go. So, without wanting to start any earlier than 7pm, then I would suggest the 4k and 12 min levels structure is just about right.
It was "just about right" - just 5k and 12 mins would only last about 20 minutes longer - but delay the pinch point.
I watched it all - out in about 97th having lost two races - no big deal there - I was lucky earlier.
It felt that there were two pinch points one about 75-90 mins in and one about 3 hours in - most of the exits were pretty standard I"ve got a good hand shove vs I have a good hand call ... flip a coin ... felt a bit too flippy for me ...
Right result though!
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The structure MUST be changed again.
Week 1 was far too slow, took forever etc etc
Week 2 was too quick, flipaments etc etc.
And in both weeks Scotland scored big points. Simply must not be allowed to happen again...CHANGE IT! ;)
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This is a $11 weekly tournament, for it to go on till 3am is a no go for me and I would assume also for a lot of people who have to work on Monday morning. Also support on the rail is important within the team aspect of the game.
The current structure is perfect for a reasonable amount of play and to finish at a reasonable time
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This is a $11 weekly tournament, for it to go on till 3am is a no go for me and I would assume also for a lot of people who have to work on Monday morning. Also support on the rail is important within the team aspect of the game.
The current structure is perfect for a reasonable amount of play and to finish at a reasonable time
+1
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Doubt that i will be commited to playing all 15 legs if it remains the same as last night, i understand its better than a reg mtt that stars throw out, but u can fire up and grind 100s of these a week and reduce the flip variance etc, so i dont know why people are comparing the structures because its a different animal. This is a league where we want to gain points over 15 weeks. And in reg mtts we play for ourselves and dont have to worry about busting a team mate. maybe others think the same maybe they dont.
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Just adjust to the structure. Thats what good players do whether its 100k stack and a 2 hour clock or a 1k stack with a 3 min clock
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Just adjust to the structure. Thats what good players do whether its 100k stack and a 2 hour clock or a 1k stack with a 3 min clock
OMG I agree with George - scary!!
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There has got to be a balance here, and the best APAT can do is find a balance that ticks as many boxes for as many members as possible. Clearly a difficult task, but achievable. ;D
Point well made and highlights the dilemma, "how to continue to keep em all happy"
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If this structure stays then week one and all the points scored should be wiped out and the game replayed......how can you move the goalposts after the game has started?
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Just adjust to the structure. Thats what good players do whether its 100k stack and a 2 hour clock or a 1k stack with a 3 min clock
OMG I agree with George - scary!!
Adjust to the structure is a self evident truism.
But I don"t see how it"s relevant to how good or bad the structure is.
If it has to stay like this then people just have to decide whether it"s worth playing or not - simple as.
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Just adjust to the structure. Thats what good players do whether its 100k stack and a 2 hour clock or a 1k stack with a 3 min clock
Exactly this.
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If this structure stays then week one and all the points scored should be wiped out and the game replayed......how can you move the goalposts after the game has started?
Lol so if a rd decides to play 9 levels instead of 8 in a live comp it should be cancelled and restarted?
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Just adjust to the structure. Thats what good players do whether its 100k stack and a 2 hour clock or a 1k stack with a 3 min clock
OMG I agree with George - scary!!
Adjust to the structure is a self evident truism.
But I don"t see how it"s relevant to how good or bad the structure is.
If it has to stay like this then people just have to decide whether it"s worth playing or not - simple as.
Think we would lose more players with a 4am finish every week
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If this structure stays then week one and all the points scored should be wiped out and the game replayed......how can you move the goalposts after the game has started?
Not sure if serious
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If this structure stays then week one and all the points scored should be wiped out and the game replayed......how can you move the goalposts after the game has started?
Not sure if serious
Not serious. He"d have typed it in capitals if he was serious. ;)
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LOL LEIGH.....my point is that we were told at the start what was happening, costs,structure, points, etc.....then one week in it is changed.
If the week one set up wasn"t different to week 2, then why was it changed?
If it (obviously) was different, then the week one game should not count IMO as it was played under a different set of rules.
Match one of Cricket"s World Cup is over 50 overs but the West Indies need to be up early in week 2 so it is changed to a 20-over comp from then on in. Are those two games the same??...of course not, and neither is this.
If you set up a League you should stick to the rules you made at the start. If people didn"t like them then why did they sign up to play?
The only way you should change them is with TOTAL agreement to do so.
IMO.
And the set up as it stands is rubbish. End Of.
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End Of.
I doubt it.
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This thread reminded me of This (http://quotations.about.com/od/changequotes/Change_Quotes_Motivating_Change_Quotes.htm)
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;D
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First week was an excellent competition.Last night was not to the same standard. My suggestion would be to keep the initial stacks and clock, and do not fiddle with it anymore.
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The only way you should change them is with TOTAL agreement to do so.
IMO.
And the set up as it stands is rubbish. End Of.
Never going to get total agreement.
I think the right decision was made, and quickly which is good (I personally advocated giving it a few weeks but was effectively outvoted, which is fine)
All the captains were asked for opinions, and to consult with their teammates. Once views came back, there was a clear preference for a shorter game
You are a captain, you had the opportunity to feed into that process
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.
If you set up a League you should stick to the rules you made at the start. If people didn"t like them then why did they sign up to play?
No one anticipated 547 runners, and I do not think people were signing up to an 8 hour plus event.
Given that, and the difficulties a 3am finish caused to a lot of people whether they made the final or wanted to rail, I think a change is perfectly understandable
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I was in Spain.
If I had known, I would have said the same.
But I understand that. The APAT National Online Turbo League it is then !
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I was in Spain.
If I had known, I would have said the same.
But I understand that. The APAT National Online Turbo League it is then !
Shame you were away. (shoul have guessed!)
I don"t think 4k/12 is a turbo
The pinch points come sooner, but it isn"t a turbo
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I was in Spain.
If I had known, I would have said the same.
But I understand that. The APAT National Online Turbo League it is then !
Previous leagues have been a 3k starting stack with 12/13 minute levels. Difficult to be able to compare the structures exactly, but I don"t recall many claiming it to be a turbo league then ?
Obviously the dealers on Pokerstars are a bit quicker than those on 888 were, but that"s the same for everyone. ;D
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One minor gripe, and by all means tell me this is not unusual
but it feels more turbo because many take so long to make action
When you have people timebanking in Levels 1-3 it was quite regularly that you"d get no more than 1-1.5 orbits per level
Timebanking I assume is people multi-tabling, making a cuppa etc
One hand was 5 bet pre-flop. Each raise went to timebank.
it played like molasses on my table
Act quicker=more hands=more opportunities
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...
Previous leagues have been a 3k starting stack with 12/13 minute levels. Difficult to be able to compare the structures exactly, but I don"t recall many claiming it to be a turbo league then ?
...
People may have higher expectations of a Stars tournament
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It didn"t feel that players were taking longer than expected on my table last night.
Just an observation though:
Last week the structure was 5k chips/15 min blinds. A few people complained but most were happy. APAT decided to discuss with the team captains. Understandable, but it is unofficially expected that the team captains rail to the end from what I read. Ergo, these people are slightly biased to the shorter clock, hence the change.
This week the clock was 4k/12m. Lots of people complained and a few are happy, most notably from the European team, team captains and a few who have an early start. Numbers also dropped by approximately 10-15%.
APAT are never going to be able to please everybody - but I have an idea.
Week 1 was 5k/15m
Week 2 was 4k/12m
Week 3 could be 5k/12m
Week 4 could be 4k/15m
Week 5 could be 3k/10m with the other structure proposed (this is assuming that 1. people are still complaining, and 2. APAT are still looking to make everyone happy)
Announce this now so people like Brian Yates (no offence against you personally Brian, but it"s your major point) know exactly what the structure is and what week is what.
Then, after Week 5, put a poll up for EVERYBODY. Not just captains, not just a select few, EVERYBODY. Spam it on the email"s/PM"s and get as many people in as possible to vote. 1 vote per forum account. Results not to be seen until the day before.
The winning structure is the one used for the remaining 10 weeks.
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It didn"t feel that players were taking longer than expected on my table last night.
Just an observation though:
Last week the structure was 5k chips/15 min blinds. A few people complained but most were happy. APAT decided to discuss with the team captains. Understandable, but it is unofficially expected that the team captains rail to the end from what I read. Ergo, these people are slightly biased to the shorter clock, hence the change.
This week the clock was 4k/12m. Lots of people complained and a few are happy, most notably from the European team, team captains and a few who have an early start. Numbers also dropped by approximately 10-15%.
APAT are never going to be able to please everybody - but I have an idea.
Week 1 was 5k/15m
Week 2 was 4k/12m
Week 3 could be 5k/12m
Week 4 could be 4k/15m
Week 5 could be 3k/10m with the other structure proposed (this is assuming that 1. people are still complaining, and 2. APAT are still looking to make everyone happy)
Announce this now so people like Brian Yates (no offence against you personally Brian, but it"s your major point) know exactly what the structure is and what week is what.
Then, after Week 5, put a poll up for EVERYBODY. Not just captains, not just a select few, EVERYBODY. Spam it on the email"s/PM"s and get as many people in as possible to vote. 1 vote per forum account. Results not to be seen until the day before.
The winning structure is the one used for the remaining 10 weeks.
+1 good idea only prob I see is players forgetting which structure was what week or the like and possibly bias towards if they did well in a specific week
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I would go along with that idea as being better than what is happening at the minute (If things HAVE to be changed that is)
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Or just keep it as it is.
Calling it a turbo is pretty ridiculous
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I don"t understand all the fuss, and don"t think it"s necessarily warranted. $11 for a regular tourney with a 4k stack and 12 minute clock is pretty damned good. It runs for 6 hours, and that is about as long as it needs to be for the sake of the league format.
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It didn"t feel that players were taking longer than expected on my table last night.
Just an observation though:
Last week the structure was 5k chips/15 min blinds. A few people complained but most were happy. APAT decided to discuss with the team captains. Understandable, but it is unofficially expected that the team captains rail to the end from what I read. Ergo, these people are slightly biased to the shorter clock, hence the change.
This week the clock was 4k/12m. Lots of people complained and a few are happy, most notably from the European team, team captains and a few who have an early start. Numbers also dropped by approximately 10-15%.
APAT are never going to be able to please everybody - but I have an idea.
Week 1 was 5k/15m
Week 2 was 4k/12m
Week 3 could be 5k/12m
Week 4 could be 4k/15m
Week 5 could be 3k/10m with the other structure proposed (this is assuming that 1. people are still complaining, and 2. APAT are still looking to make everyone happy)
Announce this now so people like Brian Yates (no offence against you personally Brian, but it"s your major point) know exactly what the structure is and what week is what.
Then, after Week 5, put a poll up for EVERYBODY. Not just captains, not just a select few, EVERYBODY. Spam it on the email"s/PM"s and get as many people in as possible to vote. 1 vote per forum account. Results not to be seen until the day before.
The winning structure is the one used for the remaining 10 weeks.
Well us "select few" and "slightly biased people" agreed as far as I can see, on our secretive captains board, to my proposal of 5k/12mins. There was a proposal, and support for 4k/12mins, but Des asked for agreement on 5k/12mins, which most accepted.
"Ergo", I can"t quite see how or why we played a 4k/12min game, as it plainly wasn"t the majority of captains preference.
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Super interesting - given numbers are likely to fall 5k/12mins looks like a gimme format to me ... amazing structure ... allowing maximum play ... finish at 1am ...
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Obviously we all know the structure was not as good as week one, but on balance i preferred it simply due to the fact i knew i would not be there till 3AM when i have to be up at 6AM.
Although i think the starting stack being raised back up to 5K would be a good idea. ( i think the clock normally has the biggest impact on finishing time ) the 5K would give people the chance to play more small ball earlier/recover from a bad beat etc etc.
As for the comments such as you won"t run deep every week - the point is when you sit down to play a tournie you must plan to go deep every time, other wise whats the point and if the game doesn"t finish until 3am then you probably won"t play at all... unless ur a degen like myself and can"t resist even with a 6AM rise on monday morning.
But fair play to APAT, still a great tourny and i will definately play on regardless even though the northwest just keep on getting beat after beat, the amount of 2 outers was crazy.
Oh and definately nowhere near a turbo, i still found plenty of play and i late regged after 40 mins.
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It didn"t feel that players were taking longer than expected on my table last night.
Just an observation though:
Last week the structure was 5k chips/15 min blinds. A few people complained but most were happy. APAT decided to discuss with the team captains. Understandable, but it is unofficially expected that the team captains rail to the end from what I read. Ergo, these people are slightly biased to the shorter clock, hence the change.
This week the clock was 4k/12m. Lots of people complained and a few are happy, most notably from the European team, team captains and a few who have an early start. Numbers also dropped by approximately 10-15%.
APAT are never going to be able to please everybody - but I have an idea.
Week 1 was 5k/15m
Week 2 was 4k/12m
Week 3 could be 5k/12m
Week 4 could be 4k/15m
Week 5 could be 3k/10m with the other structure proposed (this is assuming that 1. people are still complaining, and 2. APAT are still looking to make everyone happy)
Announce this now so people like Brian Yates (no offence against you personally Brian, but it"s your major point) know exactly what the structure is and what week is what.
Then, after Week 5, put a poll up for EVERYBODY. Not just captains, not just a select few, EVERYBODY. Spam it on the email"s/PM"s and get as many people in as possible to vote. 1 vote per forum account. Results not to be seen until the day before.
The winning structure is the one used for the remaining 10 weeks.
Well us "select few" and "slightly biased people" agreed as far as I can see, on our secretive captains board, to my proposal of 5k/12mins. There was a proposal, and support for 4k/12mins, but Des asked for agreement on 5k/12mins, which most accepted.
"Ergo", I can"t quite see how or why we played a 4k/12min game, as it plainly wasn"t the majority of captains preference.
Thanks for informing us of that Rich - and I hope I haven"t pissed you off as that definitely wasn"t my intention to come across that way.
I just feel that a public poll (which we know APAT can do well through the awards) should be better and fairer than just the captains voting. It doesn"t take long to set up.
I"ve been reading on the blog board and the various regional boards - and I would say the majority of views are that the structure was too fast. This may have been because by the first break (end of late reg, pretty much) BB/Starting Stack ratio was 1:20. Over half the field was gone by the second break - that"s only 1h 50m of play. Yes, the tournament took 5h 45m to complete total, but for those who did not cash, their evening was pretty much over by 10pm.
Again, people see 6hrs total as a tournament and are happy. It is only about 20 people that play longer than 4hrs I would reckon. I would be interested to know how many people made the final 3 tables both weeks, and would be surprised if it was more than 3, if any at all.
I"ve just loaded up my HEM as I finished in 125th place (so in the top 20%) in the first week (5k/15m). My finishing time was 9.57pm. I assume from this that the money was made before 11pm and that the last 3 tables before midnight.
Tournaments always run slower at the end. The average BB goes up and people always take more time as every hand means more. This affects the few. It just seems that we"re alienating the many for the few! Yeah, I have to get up for work at 6.30am every day, including a Monday. If I get less sleep cos I"ve made the final table - that"s a balance I have to deal with. It"s one of the few bad points about playing the league. If you don"t like it, don"t play.
My viewpoint is that keeping this structure will cost more players than losing players who feel they can"t play because they might make the final table, and as we"re trying to keep numbers up - go back to the 1st week"s structure please.
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Alternating weeks between deep and shallow is a bit silly. Never gonna find anything that suits everyone, if it isnt broke then dont fix it, and for me personally it wasnt broke on week 1.
May aswell give up and keep as is. If im home ill play, if not then what ever.
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One minor gripe, and by all means tell me this is not unusual
but it feels more turbo because many take so long to make action
When you have people timebanking in Levels 1-3 it was quite regularly that you"d get no more than 1-1.5 orbits per level
Timebanking I assume is people multi-tabling, making a cuppa etc
One hand was 5 bet pre-flop. Each raise went to timebank.
it played like molasses on my table
Act quicker=more hands=more opportunities
Can we fiddle with the timers Richard? I personally don"t think there"s that many situations where you need more than 15 seconds to act. When required I agree a timebank is useful but fully agree there was more used than needed. Some may use their timer to try tilt people, which is fair enough, but make it shorter and it should mean more hands per level for everyone.
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lol at the turbo references.
I really can"t see the problem.
Needs to finish at 1am?
5k/12m. Simple isn"t it?
All this verbiage. Hurts my brain.
ps. I won"t be playing Sunday as its my birthday. Good luck everyone. I"ll be smashed and maybe briefly think of you all x
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One minor gripe, and by all means tell me this is not unusual
but it feels more turbo because many take so long to make action
When you have people timebanking in Levels 1-3 it was quite regularly that you"d get no more than 1-1.5 orbits per level
Timebanking I assume is people multi-tabling, making a cuppa etc
One hand was 5 bet pre-flop. Each raise went to timebank.
it played like molasses on my table
Act quicker=more hands=more opportunities
Can we fiddle with the timers Richard? I personally don"t think there"s that many situations where you need more than 15 seconds to act. When required I agree a timebank is useful but fully agree there was more used than needed. Some may use their timer to try tilt people, which is fair enough, but make it shorter and it should mean more hands per level for everyone.
+1
sitting and waiting for someone to play and then they fold after 60 seconds
very frustrating
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lol at the turbo references.
I really can"t see the problem.
Needs to finish at 1am?
5k/12m. Simple isn"t it?
All this verbiage. Hurts my brain.
ps. I won"t be playing Sunday as its my birthday. Good luck everyone. I"ll be smashed and maybe briefly think of you all x
Blatant Birthday Brag obv., fishing for good wishes and presents, (preferably both) and can"t believe you didn"t post your address to ensure cards arrive on time. ;) ;) ;)
p.s. Happy Birthday {{{{{buddy}}}}}, card in post xx :-* :-*
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Sigh ,are we going to have weekly moan thread , as since this league began thats all I seem to read.
Structure in my not so expert opinion is fine , was happy enough with week 1 as I had a feeeling numbers would drop off, and the final table when formed was very even and yes i was railing till 3am , but also fine with week 2.
But now we are complaining about the timebank- what ??????
Guys I think we need to let this run a few weeks before demanding a re-think at least give it a chance to settle.
But I can seem that no matter what happens APAT can"t please everyone , an impossible task but thats life.
Guys its time to move on lets play this legue in the APAT spirit and see how it settles
Oh and come on the Scotland :P :P
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Gerry...I believe "Letting it run" shouldv"e applied for the initial structure for longer than 1 week don"t you think?
Also, could we have an official response to Richard"s quote that he was under the impression it would be changing to 5k/12 mins...or have I got that one wrong?
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Gerry...I believe "Letting it run" shouldv"e applied for the initial structure for longer than 1 week don"t you think?
Also, could we have an official response to Richard"s quote that he was under the impression it would be changing to 5k/12 mins...or have I got that one wrong?
No, letting it run quickly became a non option when the event was still going on past 3am.
Several opinions were offered by the captains on what the reduced structure should be, but none was agreed by all. Pokerstars advised 4k and 12m should see the tournament finish by 1am (or 2am for our Eoropean members) and that is why the reduced structure ended up being that. We can cut the structure a number of ways, but the event should not go on beyond 1am.
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lol at the turbo references.
I really can"t see the problem.
Needs to finish at 1am?
5k/12m. Simple isn"t it?
All this verbiage. Hurts my brain.
ps. I won"t be playing Sunday as its my birthday. Good luck everyone. I"ll be smashed and maybe briefly think of you all x
Happy 50th for Sunday :-* and perhaps you should play whilst very intoxicated as your game will obviously improve ;D
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OK here"s my 2 cents..... I didn"t like the structure at all on sunday, no room for play with a 4k stack IMO... that said To call it a turbo or to shout for week ones game to be scrapped and replayed is ludicrous. There were complaints about week 1 so they tried something else to keep you all happy, week 2 you didn"t like it so they will probably try something else to keep you all happy.
The constant complaints are getting boring if i"m honest. ::)
Personally i loved the week 1 structure but as it turns out it"s no good for the finish time most want/need, 12 minute blinds I don"t mind too much but has to be a 5k stack IMO..... even worst case scenario 12 min, 5k, 6.30pm start time with hour late reg. would see a decent finish time.
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Des
thanks for setting the league up and attracting a sponsor.
thanks for listening to the concerns of some of the APAT members after week one and trying to find a solution to those concerns
unfortunately you are never going to find a structure that makes everyone happy.
I know you are too polite to respond to all the criticism, moaning and sniping that is going on... so let me.....
Lets just play league poker on a Sunday night and enjoy it.
Its a good way to finish the weekend by spending $11
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Des
thanks for setting the league up and attracting a sponsor.
thanks for listening to the concerns of some of the APAT members after week one and trying to find a solution to those concerns
unfortunately you are never going to find a structure that makes everyone happy.
I know you are too polite to respond to all the criticism, moaning and sniping that is going on... so let me.....
Lets just play league poker on a Sunday night and enjoy it.
Its a good way to finish the weekend by spending $11
Seconded
Geo
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Des
thanks for setting the league up and attracting a sponsor.
thanks for listening to the concerns of some of the APAT members after week one and trying to find a solution to those concerns
unfortunately you are never going to find a structure that makes everyone happy.
I know you are too polite to respond to all the criticism, moaning and sniping that is going on... so let me.....
Lets just play league poker on a Sunday night and enjoy it.
Its a good way to finish the weekend by spending $11
+2
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Agree with some of what u are saying. Well done to Apat for attracting stars for us to play this etc, but its not just about spending $11 is it?
It runs 15 legs, so to play them all which most people will do i think, and to make it worth while and have a proper crack at getting some points on the board its more of an advantade to play everyone from the start. So its an outlay of $165 ( still not very much at all i know). But to say its just $11 at the end of the week is a bit irrelevant dont you think? Its not like its a one off home game where people are dicking around is it?
And imo we are very lucky to have it on the best poker site out there and hope it stays on stars for future seasons. So i think its a bit of a shame that we havent found somthing that suites everyone. But im sure they are working on it.
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OK, my turn...
I though the first week was excellent, but agree that the very late finish was not ideal. I found the second week"s structure surprisingly quick (I don"t know why, but I thought the change wouldn"t make too much difference), but only relative to the previous week; it was still a pretty slow tournament. As many have said, it still lasted six hours.
To be honest, I don"t mind what we go for, I"ll try and play whenever I can. Although I haven"t read all the comments, has anyone said how much better it is that last year"s set up? I"m loving the fact that we are all playing in one big tournament rather than lots of smaller ones!
Looking forward to Sunday! Keep up the good work, APAT!
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At last some sensible reasoned posts. some of the stuff a few pages ago was way over the top and I am afraid doesn"t reflect well.
I enjoy playing these games and you obviously can"t please everyone so a sensible structure needed to be found. I"d love to be able to play for 8hrs+ on a Sunday but I can"t (certainly not on a regular basis anyway). I think the last game was ok, but I can"t think of a much better alternative without starting the game earlier. All tournaments have inflection points where there are periods of lolflipaments (even APAT live 2 dayers have certain points where there is just loads of preflop flips around the 300/600 400/800 level for example - cant expand further as I am usually at the bar by then) so people just need to manage their stack and play better IMO.
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I believe it"s fair to assume that people posting in this thread are more likely to be on the more serious side about poker than the average. Adapting to the structure, no problem for me or the majority of you lot. But APAT prides itself on offering player friendly structures, and I don"t believe either week 1 or week 2 got it quite right. There will be (relatively speaking) novice players who are spending more on a poker tournament than they usually do and I strongly believe they need to get some bang for their buck. Surely these are the players we need to attract and keep? Someone correct me if I"m wrong.
An hour before the maths freaks (guilty) start open jamming their 20BB stacks isn"t enough for the casual player - most people do not enjoy jam/fold poker, they want to play poker and that"s more than fair enough! (I"m basing this statement on my experience at the local casino and in the past running the biggest student poker society in the UK - 150 players, 5 hours and trying to design a structure to match).
Adding 1,000 chips to stacks and keeping the same structure will not make any significant difference to the tournament. You might get 10 minutes longer before hitting shove/fold.
Current structure is:
10/20 (30)
15/30 (45)
25/50 (75)
50/100 (150)
75/150 (225)
100/200 (300)
125/250/25 (600)
150/300/25 (675)
200/400/50 (1050)
300/600/50 (1350)
400/800/75 (1875)
500/1000/100 (2400) etc
As Dean said, there are inflection points in every tournament (mainly when the starting stacks who"ve dribbled down hit short stack mode, however I think it occurs at the wrong time. There"s a big jump from level 6 to level 7 when antes come in, right at the point where starting stacks suddenly hit 20BBs. However, I don"t think it"s far away from being as good as it can be in the time allowed. I"d personally suggest a 100/200/25 level instead of 125/250/25, and perhaps an extra level or two inserted in the first 3 or 4, losing a later level if necessary. Should be possible to eek out an extra 30 minutes of play before shove-shove-shove, which should allow more time for stacks to diverge and ease the path of eliminations. All without affecting the finish time.
I will of course support APAT regardless of whatever decisions made, and recognise Des, Tighty et al do a great job given the balancing act of a number of different opinions floating around. There"s always room for constructive comments - hope this is seen as such. Good luck ;)
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Good post. Although id rather see the clock changed back to 15 mins rather than changing the blind structure ( i actually think blind structure is fine) and i think that we should start with only a 15 sec time bank (not sure what its at now) and once past 2nd break or itm then add more seconds to the bank.
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Whether the starting stack is 4k or 5k, the usual nit players will hit the wall at some point, and the time difference won"t be that great. 4k is 200xBB - and with 12 minute blinds, that should be ample early wiggle room for most, and as Dean says, just make sure you adapt. We could start with 20k, and the nits would still hit the wall, just much later - but that doesn"t mean it"s a "better" tourney, just a "slower" tourney.
imo 4k/12 is fine..... although, if you look at many of the Stars Big tourneys, they run with 3k/15, and seem to be a little smoother than pour week 2 was. I wonder if the transitions are a little shallower in these tourneys.
Understand the clock and blind structure before the game starts, and then play to suit. 4k/12 is hardly a short-stacked turbo ffs!
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As I understand it.
Most people who expressed a perference loved week 1 - (want a deeper structure if possible)
Most people who expressed a perference disliked week 2 - (It became a shovefest to soon)
Most (but not all) of the captains wanted 5K,12 mins for week 2
The key constraint is that the tournament finishes by c1am - which it very likely would with either 4k, 12 mins or 5k, 12 mins.
The change to 5k, would only give those players who want to be active an extra 10/15 mins to accrue chips - seems a small price to pay in that the tournament might finish 15 mins later.
It"s true no structure can ever stop a true and pure nitfest getting to all-in/fold territory - but better to give people as much time as possible to play and have the chance to avoid this.
One of the few weaknesses of the APAT is the nitty play in the tournaments. It"s brilliant fun to play against but you need as much time as possible before the first pinch in the tournament.
As others have said - great play in setting up the 400/500 runner format for a Sunday night - tremendous event - a great chance to play as part of a team - is there a final tweak to make it an even better event?
L
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As I understand it.
Most people who expressed a perference loved week 1 - (want a deeper structure if possible)
Most people who expressed a perference disliked week 2 - (It became a shovefest to soon)
Most (but not all) of the captains wanted 5K,12 mins for week 2
The key constraint is that the tournament finishes by c1am - which it very likely would with either 4k, 12 mins or 5k, 12 mins.
The change to 5k, would only give those players who want to be active an extra 10/15 mins to accrue chips - seems a small price to pay in that the tournament might finish 15 mins later.
It"s true no structure can ever stop a true and pure nitfest getting to all-in/fold territory - but better to give people as much time as possible to play and have the chance to avoid this.
One of the few weaknesses of the APAT is the nitty play in the tournaments. It"s brilliant fun to play against but you need as much time as possible before the first pinch in the tournament.
As others have said - great play in setting up the 400/500 runner format for a Sunday night - tremendous event - a great chance to play as part of a team - is there a final tweak to make it an even better event?
L
Agree 100% with this.
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I was in two minds about how last week went.... I am not too maths minded to work out structures and levels and estimated times so I normally just judge on how long I stay in.. It was Mothers Day and after spending some time with mothers and other various female members celebrating this day I had to take advantage of the late reg. I think that I set out a bit too quick as I felt I had to catch up in some way. It did feel as if things were quicker than the week before but I put it down to joining in at higher blinds. With that in mind the "pinch point" came for me earlier than 75 minutes but I more than doubled up with a 3 handed all-in call. Patience is what kills me, or more the lack of it. When the small stacks were trying their luck with shoves then that is when I lacked patience and fell one or two places before the pennies. I think I am drawn to week twos structure but maybe thats because I went deeper. I look forward to my weekly League Game and to be honest any structure that is not Turbo, which this certainly was not in my view, is good for me... Cheers..
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Wel I don"t really care if it"s anything between a 2 day grind or a 1 chip flip to be honest I just like playing in it, already regd and waiting for Sunday .....go south east..
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IMO I think the League should have been left as it was first place.
The fact that many people have already correctly stated "you cant keep everyone happy" actually means once you open this topic up for feedback you are indeed going to make some people unhappy.
I joined APAT in the June of S4 and have played all the Online Nationals* since then. I played the National League once in S4 and once in S5, if I remember correctly there was nothing like 500 entrants in either season, so I dont understand why we should need feedback when 547 runners played in the first week. If it aint broke - dont fix it. Surely the numbers of entries are the only feedback you need.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the reason there is a large number of players this year has got nothing to do with the structure but is actually down to two simple factors:
1. Its on Pokerstars
2. Identity with a team. ( if you live 20 miles from Newcastle do you really feel part of a Newcastle team or would you prefer a NE team).
Most of these type of threads end up the way - someone says black, someone says white, someone posts thinking they are an authority on the matter, then someone posts using great diplomacy.
People spend a lot of time and effort setting up an APAT season, if you dont agree with some aspects of it - get over it.
Online Nats - I"ve played them all since mid s4- avg turnout 70 -150 plys. If APAT had announced S6 Nats were going to be turbos and you got 400 entrants, who am I to complain.
The numbers tell the real story
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The first paragrpah is like reading my mind. Only i struggled to put it into words.
My fav post in this thread.
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My favourite post is this one...
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That is a very good post galo. But I"d still prefer week 1"s structure with 12 min levels :)
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^ so basically week 2 then? Because i thought the blind structures exactly the same.
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Obviously 500+ runners in Week One were all unhappy!
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^ so basically week 2 then? Because i thought the blind structures exactly the same.
No, we had 5k chips in week 1 and, though I wasn"t in long enough to notice, I"m told some levels went missing too.
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Answering points above
Week 3 is exactly the same as Week 2, and it is anticipated that will continue
No blind levels were missing Week 2 versus Week 1
Brian, for every player happy with Week 1, there was one unhappy at how long it went on. The European team also probably folds if we continued with the Week 1 structure, which would have been most undesirable not just for the legaue but for APAT in general, looking ahead.
It"s impossible to please everyone on this
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It"s impossible to please everyone on this
^^This!!
As it stands, it is suitable all round imo. Deep and slow enough to not be a turbo, but not so deep and slow that it lasts til ridiculous-o-clock.
For late night deep stack action, get onto William Hill tonight at 8pm ffs!!
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Yeh fair enough, can never please everyone. debate has been fun though.
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Des,
What the hope for Week 1?
Would be good to get some feedback from Stars too, on what they think about the numbers
I believed we would get a record turnout Waz, but not 547 runners.
Perhaps not for PokerStars, but for every other major online operator in the UK, that would be an extremely good result. For a non operator to be able to produce those numbers, is exceptional.
If its an extremely good result, why on earth would you want to change it
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Answering points above
Week 3 is exactly the same as Week 2, and it is anticipated that will continue
No blind levels were missing Week 2 versus Week 1
Brian, for every player happy with Week 1, there was one unhappy at how long it went on. The European team also probably folds if we continued with the Week 1 structure, which would have been most undesirable not just for the legaue but for APAT in general, looking ahead.
It"s impossible to please everyone on this
I"m not entirely sure what APAT actually is, is it about the Forum or is it about the guys who play the tournaments? (genuine question). If its the latter, then I find the following statement hard to believe - 547 runners and "for everyone that was happy there was one unhappy", sorry, I do not question your integrity at all but this is a rash statement with no facts to back it up. It seems to me that APAT does indeed like to listen to its members, depending on what member you are. Having said that, if APAT is indeed about the guys who post on this forum then please
ignore this post.
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Didnt play last night but how many runners were there?
Was it more than 547 or less?
....and it if it was a lot less, how delighted are the sponsors??
Also, if there really were as many happy as there were unhappy with the opening structure, why was it changed at all then???
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Didnt play last night but how many runners were there?
Was it more than 547 or less?
....and it if it was a lot less, how delighted are the sponsors??
Also, if there really were as many happy as there were unhappy with the opening structure, why was it changed at all then???
Because the captains, of which you are one, wanted it. Des has responded to everyone that has asked that APAT were happy to leave it as was but it was pressure from the captains that brought about the change.
Whether the captains wanted such a drastic change seems less clear cut, but you should at least be able to read the relevant thread on your private board to find out!
It appears that only pressure from the captains will lead to any (further) change.
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Didnt play last night but how many runners were there?
Was it more than 547 or less?
....and it if it was a lot less, how delighted are the sponsors??
Also, if there really were as many happy as there were unhappy with the opening structure, why was it changed at all then???
ummmm did nobody notice that in week 1 with the 5k/15 structure there were 547 runners..... and in week 2 that had reduced to around 420(can"t remember actual number). That"s a huge drop off after one week, and perhaps an indication of what many people thought about the 3.30am finish? Can"t blame the new structure for that drop off as the new structure hadn"t been played yet.
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Des,
What the hope for Week 1?
Would be good to get some feedback from Stars too, on what they think about the numbers
I believed we would get a record turnout Waz, but not 547 runners.
Perhaps not for PokerStars, but for every other major online operator in the UK, that would be an extremely good result. For a non operator to be able to produce those numbers, is exceptional.
If its an extremely good result, why on earth would you want to change it
The number dropped off significantly (20%+) after the first week, before the 4k structure had been played..... that"s over 100 people that didn"t come back after week one. Perhaps a sign of people not liking the 3.30am finish?
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| | Runners | Runtime | Finish Time |
| Week 1 | 547 | 8hrs 8mins | 3:08 |
| Week 2 | 454 | 5hrs 46mins | 12:46 |
| Week 3 | 331 | 5hrs 21mins | 12:21 |
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Last Seasons Online National League Runners
Week 1 - 287
Week 2 - 230
Week 3 - 204
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Thanks Leigh. So more dropped after wk2 than after wk1. Might that have happened anyway, regardless of structure, or might it be an indication of feeling?
I"m sure there"s a structure out there that will suit most desires - Dave Howard made some good observations in the Match 3 thread last night, looking at the Stars 500 cap structure with 3k/10, but a shallower climb.
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There"s always a drop off in league numbers, so no point people arguing that the lower number of entrants is because of the structure. Absolute rubbish.
galo5767 does have a point though I"m not in agreement with the tone of the post - the people that should be asked are the casual players that don"t shout loudest and post on the forum. Find out why those who played in week 1 and/or 2 haven"t played in week 3 - job for the captains?
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Thanks Leigh. So more dropped after wk2 than after wk1. Might that have happened anyway, regardless of structure, or might it be an indication of feeling?
I"m sure there"s a structure out there that will suit most desires - Dave Howard made some good observations in the Match 3 thread last night, looking at the Stars 500 cap structure with 3k/10, but a shallower climb.
Can"t take any credit for the research of the 500 cap, that certainly wasn"t my suggestion! Kudos to the researcher though!
Fully believe the structure we currently have would be acceptable - with a couple of minor tweaks, that"s all!
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Thanks Leigh. So more dropped after wk2 than after wk1. Might that have happened anyway, regardless of structure, or might it be an indication of feeling?
I"m sure there"s a structure out there that will suit most desires - Dave Howard made some good observations in the Match 3 thread last night, looking at the Stars 500 cap structure with 3k/10, but a shallower climb.
Can"t take any credit for the research of the 500 cap, that certainly wasn"t my suggestion! Kudos to the researcher though!
Fully believe the structure we currently have would be acceptable - with a couple of minor tweaks, that"s all!
oops of course I meant Adam Sharples and not Dave Howard ::)
In advance: Structure is too quick. More levels please.
However, I"m not just here to moan. I have a suggestion.
During the first 2 weeks, the average number of players is 500. APAT have consistently said that they want the league games to last 6hrs (ish). So...Pokerstars run a range of CAP tournaments. I had a look at the only completed 500 cap F/O that I could see in the lobby. It was an $8.80 that started at 10.15am and finished at 16.07pm - which is 5hrs 52m.
The blinds? 3k/10m, but the 72 level structure that Stars has, rather than the 56 level structure that we currently have. See below (We use the one in the middle/right, I propose we use the one on the left)
(http://i.imgur.com/bmvKI.png) (http://i.imgur.com/bmvKI.png)
This seems to have been written specifically for these capped tournaments and seem to be perfect for what we want.
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Last Seasons Online National League Runners
Week 1 - 287
Week 2 - 230
Week 3 - 204
That"s the kind of drop off I"d expect just from a normal league.
For this league, with the initial numbers I expected there to be about a 100 down from the first week then 50 down to this week.
Anything above that - might - be a sign of dissatisfaction with the structure
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Didnt play last night but how many runners were there?
Was it more than 547 or less?
....and it if it was a lot less, how delighted are the sponsors??
Also, if there really were as many happy as there were unhappy with the opening structure, why was it changed at all then???
Which team won ? Any correlation ? ;D
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Des,
What the hope for Week 1?
Would be good to get some feedback from Stars too, on what they think about the numbers
I believed we would get a record turnout Waz, but not 547 runners.
Perhaps not for PokerStars, but for every other major online operator in the UK, that would be an extremely good result. For a non operator to be able to produce those numbers, is exceptional.
If its an extremely good result, why on earth would you want to change it
The number dropped off significantly (20%+) after the first week, before the 4k structure had been played..... that"s over 100 people that didn"t come back after week one. Perhaps a sign of people not liking the 3.30am finish?
Actually 17%, it dropped off even more with the current structure (27%) and that"s without allowing for any of those "not liking the 3.30 am finish" coming back for the 1am finish (I"m sure there must have been a few). Perhaps an even bigger sign.
What amazes me is this league is the biggest recruitment tool for APAT (via the teams) yet having got new people interested - especially looking at the Wiki page, "player friendly structures" - their first experience is this, most won"t come back. I know we are taking the structure that Stars suggested but surely that"s a standard structure that can be tweaked in any number of ways.
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Ultimately we have to finish at 1am as the league in particular is a community game. With that in mind, my gut feeling is that we should run with 4k / 12m again in week 3 to assess whether last weekend"s version ran off more quickly than normal or not.
This was from the last post I made on the "finishing time" thread on the captain"s board.
It looks like match 3 ran off even more quickly than match 2, so I will speak to PokerStars again to look at the earlier stages of the tournament.
For all of those posting sentiments along the lines of "**** structure" and "APAT don"t care", please grow up. Our players are all we care about.
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I"m merging the "Yes 500" thread with the "Match 2 Structure" thread as many of the themes are similar.
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Ultimately we have to finish at 1am as the league in particular is a community game. With that in mind, my gut feeling is that we should run with 4k / 12m again in week 3 to assess whether last weekend"s version ran off more quickly than normal or not.
This was from the last post I made on the "finishing time" thread on the captain"s board.
It looks like match 3 ran off even more quickly than match 2, so I will speak to PokerStars again to look at the earlier stages of the tournament.
For all of those posting sentiments along the lines of "**** structure" and "APAT don"t care", please grow up. Our players are all we care about.
Great, a game of fill in the missing letters.
Can I go first ?
Des, is there a letter "c" in the word ?
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Ultimately we have to finish at 1am as the league in particular is a community game. With that in mind, my gut feeling is that we should run with 4k / 12m again in week 3 to assess whether last weekend"s version ran off more quickly than normal or not.
This was from the last post I made on the "finishing time" thread on the captain"s board.
It looks like match 3 ran off even more quickly than match 2, so I will speak to PokerStars again to look at the earlier stages of the tournament.
For all of those posting sentiments along the lines of "**** structure" and "APAT don"t care", please grow up. Our players are all we care about.
Great, a game of fill in the missing letters.
Can I go first ?
Des, is there a letter "c" in the word ?
Not in the missing letters, no. ;)
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How about a " S " DES lol
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How about a " S " DES lol
There could well be Gary. :)
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For all of those posting sentiments along the lines of "**** structure" and "APAT don"t care", please grow up.
Dead right. They should be posting "APAT doesn"t care".
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For all of those posting sentiments along the lines of "**** structure" and "APAT don"t care", please grow up.
Dead right. They should be posting "APAT doesn"t care".
::)
Tsk...
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I play for fun. APAT wants me to turn up for 15 consecutive weeks and spend USD 165 on the tournament series. To be honest I"d be happy if I got half that back.
What I do want though is a bit of bang for my buck. If I"m in fold or shove mode to any raise after an hour then that"s not my idea of a fun game. I"m not saying I want to be able to nit it up for three hours but I think it"s fair to give the players a decent game. How many players have made more than one final table so far?
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I play to lose too John, but we"ve only had 3 weeks so far, so making more than one final table is surely not relevant, IMO, although Lee Mardon finished 3rd week 1 and 2nd week 2.
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I play for fun. APAT wants me to turn up for 15 consecutive weeks and spend USD 165 on the tournament series. To be honest I"d be happy if I got half that back.
What I do want though is a bit of bang for my buck. If I"m in fold or shove mode to any raise after an hour then that"s not my idea of a fun game. I"m not saying I want to be able to nit it up for three hours but I think it"s fair to give the players a decent game. How many players have made more than one final table so far?
+1
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He should be banned for being too good then )
Seriously though I"m just trying to say it won"t be a late night for many people very often..
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Seriously though I"m just trying to say it won"t be a late night for many people very often..
Not really the point though - if someone can"t afford a late night, they probably wouldn"t register in the first place.
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Yeh, it isnt worth it for anyone to get less than 4 hours sleep. Even if it meant winning a few hundred quid and scoring good individual points.
If i had to get up early and was on the final table, i would use it as an excuse to gamble a bit. Worst case scenario is that u win some all ins and get in top 3 or better, may not get a good sleep but im sure your not gonna drop down dead on monday morning. And anyone would be lucky to make 2 finals in 15 legs (or even just 1 final tbh) and if you bust trying then go to bed.
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Thanks Leigh. So more dropped after wk2 than after wk1. Might that have happened anyway, regardless of structure, or might it be an indication of feeling?
I"m sure there"s a structure out there that will suit most desires - Dave Howard made some good observations in the Match 3 thread last night, looking at the Stars 500 cap structure with 3k/10, but a shallower climb.
Can"t take any credit for the research of the 500 cap, that certainly wasn"t my suggestion! Kudos to the researcher though!
Fully believe the structure we currently have would be acceptable - with a couple of minor tweaks, that"s all!
oops of course I meant Adam Sharples and not Dave Howard ::)
In advance: Structure is too quick. More levels please.
However, I"m not just here to moan. I have a suggestion.
During the first 2 weeks, the average number of players is 500. APAT have consistently said that they want the league games to last 6hrs (ish). So...Pokerstars run a range of CAP tournaments. I had a look at the only completed 500 cap F/O that I could see in the lobby. It was an $8.80 that started at 10.15am and finished at 16.07pm - which is 5hrs 52m.
The blinds? 3k/10m, but the 72 level structure that Stars has, rather than the 56 level structure that we currently have. See below (We use the one in the middle/right, I propose we use the one on the left)
(http://i.imgur.com/bmvKI.png) (http://i.imgur.com/bmvKI.png)
This seems to have been written specifically for these capped tournaments and seem to be perfect for what we want.
Interesting, PokerStars are proposing a 80 level tournament with 1500 starting chips and 15m blinds. I"ve requested more comparative information.
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I quite like the $22 big antes comps which have a 500 cap, structure always seems to play really well to me. I know alot of the players on here might go "woah antes from the start" but the comp starts at 5/10 from memory and always seems a good comfortable structure with 3k chips and would probably fit quite well into our timeslot.
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One on the left is best structure by far (because the blind increase is not nearly as steep). Look at corresponding level numbers after level 6, level 11 is more than doubble on the other 2. This means more play early on obviously. Most people will be busto by level 10 anyway. Its the early levels where people want a bit more value.
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Is this whole discussion one big level?
APAT was supposed to be all about bringing well structured tournaments for reasonable buy ins. Tick
We all know that deepstack poker favours the better players. Tick
I, along with most poker players, do not consider a 12.30am finish late, which is roughly where the last 2 weeks have finished. Tick
Seriously guys if it ain"t broke there is no need to fix it.
And as a last point I, along with quite a few others I have spoken to, already aren"t happy to be attracted into a 15 week league only for the good structures to be pulled from underneath us ONCE THE LEAGUE HAS STARTED. This really isn"t on and should have been sorted before the league started. Now fair enough a 3am start first week was too late but last week was fine with a 12.30 finsih. Jeez I bet most of the moaners aren"t even finishing half way up the field, or bothering to rail their fellow teammates once out. They just want a structure that favours a lesser player who is prepared to gamble his way through a short stacked poorly structured tournie.
p.s. I just checked and over 90% of the field were out by 10.30pm last Sunday night!!! This whole change structure cos of late night finish is a complete red herring imho.
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Understand what you are saying because i am one of the dissapointed ones, but before week 1 (when 5k 15 min etc) apat never imagined 547 runners. So could not have forseen 3 am finish. People complained about late finish to their captains i believe, even though only 9 players made final table. And they were 7 handed for almost 1 hour which isnt normal in all honesty. Maybe the shortstacks were winning the all ins, or maybe people were wanting to ladder a bit.
(i think others saying they want to rail friends on final table is fine of course, but these people now moaning that they want to watch friends but dont want to go to bed after 1 am is a bit like, umm whats the sentance im looking for? Get a life maybe ?? naah thats a bit harsh, but if youve gone busto, go to bed lol)
last week there was slightly over 200 less players than week 1. I would not be surprised if most dropped out because week 2 was such a punt. So no point in saying over half field were out by 10.30, because thats what apat wanted anyway, to get it finished by 1 am. "if it aint broke then dont fix it" cant apply to this situation because what is broke for some people may be fine for others. Week 1 was fine for me, but not ok for people who have a proper job where they dont get cash in hand lol. And week 2 was ok for people who have proper job, but not really ok for me because i want to give this a crack and give myself the best chance possible to get some points and a good tourny over 15 weeks, and dont mind staying up untill 3 am.
fwiw, i know that lots of players dont contribute to forum, and in week 2, on my starting table, think i was probably the only one who knew of the change to clock and starting stack, there were 3 welsh players who were all asking why we only had 4k (whos their captain and why didnt you tell your team?). everyone else seemed surprised and this was obvious by the chat in the box.
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Gordon, you haven"t read most of the thread
Frankly, you are talking a lot of ******** (insert smiley)
In a nutshell
- The vast majority of the field need to get up for work on the Monday morning, that is the overwhelming feedback
- The European team, in particular had huge problems with a late finish, especially with an hour"s time zone difference. The team would in all likelihood have had to fold, the Captain assured us repeatedly. Not desirable from their point of view, or APATs.
- Railing has always been a big part of APAT leagues and final tables.
- The structure change is very much because of a late finish. No other reason, The opposite of a red herring
- No APAT player has suggested a lesser structure to remove the skill element. The overwhelming majority of APAT players could be characterised as "tight" "conservative" types. There is a reluctance, I think, to adjust playing style to suit structure
As to Will Young"s points. The structure change was communicated via facebook, twitter and forum. Captains should also have communicated it as widely as possible. I also don"t think telling people who traditionally rail their mates to "get a life" or go to bed is at all helpful. Who are you to say that they need to do that? The railing is part of what the community is about, and has been for years.
As I keep saying we have two very different constituencies to cater to here. Those that want to play deep and long and those that can"t risk a late finish. Impossible to say how many have pulled out for which reason.
we might have a structure for week 4 onwards that provides a solution, suggested by Stars, that the captains are considering now
It is far shallower in the early levels, and will allow conservative types plenty of time to play. Finishing time would be roughly the same as now, because the starting stack is much lower. Better structure though
We"ll see what the captains want to do
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fwiw, i know that lots of players dont contribute to forum, and in week 2, on my starting table, think i was probably the only one who knew of the change to clock and starting stack, there were 3 welsh players who were all asking why we only had 4k (whos their captain and why didnt you tell your team?). everyone else seemed surprised and this was obvious by the chat in the box.
Tbh you have a point, cos I spoke to a few players who didnt play after week 1 cos it was too late a finish but when i said the structure had changed to 4k with a 12min clock and that the game was finished by 12.30am they all said, why didn"t someone tell them the structure had changed cos they would have played for sure. I think there is a large silent majority who do not use the forum regularly who still do not know that the structure has changed from that first game, some might say their loss, but I say maybe thats APAT's loss. :o :o :o
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Frankly, you are talking a lot of ******** (insert smiley)
Thanks for a constructive comment to my post, which was meant to be constructive. (stickyersmileyupyer@rse)
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Frankly, you are talking a lot of ******** (insert smiley)
Thanks for a constructive comment to my post, which was meant to be constructive. (stickyersmileyupyer@rse)
Gave you a very constructive reply
Just thought it was a bit off to sound off so pointedly without reading the thread Gordon. If you had done so you would discovered most of your points were moot
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Frankly, you are talking a lot of ******** (insert smiley)
Thanks for a constructive comment to my post, which was meant to be constructive. (stickyersmileyupyer@rse)
Gave you a very constructive reply
Just thought it was a bit off to sound off so pointedly without reading the thread Gordon. If you had done so you would discovered most of your points were moot
Well i have read most of the thread and I do not think my points are moot.
So does that now mean I am allowed to say I think you are talking *********? (nosmileyintendedorrequiringinsertion)
No it doesn"t cos I tend to treat people with a bit more respect, you obviosuly don"t have the social skills to do so. ::)
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Yes ok, point taken about people railing their team mates. i know its a big part of the team spirit. I did say Get a life and go to bed as tounge in cheek though.
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I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.
Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players? Surely it has to be.
My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.
I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.
I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.
One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.
We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.
The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.
Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.
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I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.
Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players? Surely it has to be.
My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.
I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.
I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.
One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.
We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.
The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.
Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.
Great post.
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My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.
This
One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.
We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.
The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.
This
Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.
Personally I don"t think there was much wrong with last weeks 4k/12min structure, although maybe adding a few earlier levels would perhaps placate those that want a bit more play early on. However, I think your proposal of reverting back to the week 1 structure with the smaller field size is a fair compromise. I don"t think many had a problem with the structure itself, I just think the bigger than expected initial field size caught everyone out, hence the late finish & that"s unlikely to be a problem going forward.
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I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.
Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players? Surely it has to be.
My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.
I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.
I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.
One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.
We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.
The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.
Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.
like ;)
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The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.
100% in agreement with this
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My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.
Just out of curiosity, why do you believe that this structure and starting stack mean that a 3x raise to 2% of starting stack is more likely to get "called all over the place"? Surely as it represents a larger percentage of stack than a 3x raise to 60 in a 5k tournament, people will be less included to call quite so freely? And if you really do feel that people will "call all over the place" in this particular structure, then surely you just raise with a narrower range and adjust?
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I guess that sadly there isn"t a way of running a "dummy game", otherwise we would be able to predict roughly when we would finish if we re-introduced the 5k/15m game with the current 320 or so runners.
Would it be significantly quicker than week 1 with 220 less players? Surely it has to be.
My concern with this proposed "new" structure is that it looks so slow early on, that a 3bb raise to 30 chips is just going to get called all over the place. Therefore 6/10bb raises may then become the norm and we are back to sq. 1 with 1 bad hand meaning a shove fest for those unfortunate enough to get unluck just once.
I"d really like to see us go back to the week 1 structure with the assumed reduced field of 300 odd and see where it takes us, because TBH we are all guessing really and this is the only way we can be sure of the facts.
I"m sure Achim could "sell" this to his team for 1 week. If it proves to be a 2am finish then we simply make it 5k/12m for week 5 which will take at least an hour out of the game, with 5 levels and hour instead of 4. The 5k stack appeals to most players and also allows the required finish time.
One final point is this. I think it"s a bit unfair on the hardcore APAT regular players to have this quick structure, just because some people (not APAT management) want it finished by a "certain time" due to work on Monday. This "certain time" of 1am is fine, and obv. fair enough, as long as it doesn"t affect the game adversly, by us having to cram too few levels into the game just to get it finished. If 1am is the absolute fixed criterior we are governed by, and I think we all agree that this is fair and resonable, then the start time simply has to come forward to 6.30 or even 6pm with a 60, 75 or even 90 minute late reg. for those that CHOOSE not to come in at the beginning of the game.
We really shouldn"t be considering kids bedtimes, Sunday dinners, aunties birthdays etc., etc., as someone somewhere will always have a reason why it doesn"t quite suit them personally.
The most important thing is that we get a good game, that finishes at a fair time for the vast majority, and if that means starting ealier, then so be it.
Therefore I propose that we re-introduce the 5k/15m game for this week with a start time of 6.30, with a 90 minute late reg., and an assumed turnout of 300 odd runners. This should cover almost all bases and for those that it doesn"t suit, then that"s just unfortunate, because we will never please everybody. Our task is too assist the majority and think that this would do that.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this GREAT post Curly and totally makes sense.....late reg could even be 120 mins as Stars offers that in most of their bigger mtt"s anyway
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| | Runners | Runtime | Finish Time |
| Week 1 | 547 | 8hrs 8mins | 3:08 |
| Week 2 | 454 | 5hrs 46mins | 12:46 |
| Week 3 | 331 | 5hrs 21mins | 12:21 |
Just to make the point again, the number of runners is not the main factor in how long the tourney will run. Week 2 and 3 were identical structures.
We saw a 27% drop on plater numbers, and this reduced the runtime by 25 minutes (which is about 7%)
I would suggest that a Week 1 structure with Week 3 runners may see the finish time cut by an hour, but, if as a lot of people are suggesting that players stopped playing because the structure changed, then the reduction may not be that great.
It"s a tricky dilemna, and I agree with plenty of points from both sides of the discussion.
Where I cringe, is when this gets taken so seriously and becomes so personal from different people.
I think we all want to get the best possible league for as many players as possible, but I"m starting to think that we need to sell the film rights to Mr Cruise so he can make Mission Impossible V ;D
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Did any of the captains actually agree to the original change - other than Achim? There seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors in play here.
Would not like to see this Sunday evening tournament drift back into Sunday afternoon. 7pm is about the earliest I would consider playing and late regging is not for me.
Agree with what Curly says about the 1500 chip slow structure. Unfortunately not everyone reads the game like AMRN and understands that 30 chips is still a 3BB raise, so 6-10BB raises is inevitable early doors.
Having 90-120 mins late reg just extends the game by adding in tons more chips. Scrapping late reg altogether and reverting to 5K/15 mins/7pm start would probably give us a 1.30am ish finish with the current numbers.
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For me week one was too deep and finished too late, however with 200 fewer runners the structure probs needs tweaking again.
People making comments such as not going deep often enough to worry about a late finish is frankly a bag of *******.
I play tournies based on how much time I have to play them and expected finish time, not to waste buyins cos I will be out early (even if that is the case often)
This is a weekly league game, not a deepstack event. All that happened in the first week was players folded for 3 hours until the blinds were big enough to play hands.
The newer structure isn"t a crapshoot, but players need to learn to adjust to it. These games are still lasting 6 hours, longer than previous seasons on other sites
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| | Runners | Runtime | Finish Time |
| Week 1 | 547 | 8hrs 8mins | 3:08 |
| Week 2 | 454 | 5hrs 46mins | 12:46 |
| Week 3 | 331 | 5hrs 21mins | 12:21 |
Just to echo this - if you go back to 5k/15mins - even with a field half the size you will very likely only finish 30-45mins earlier.
My earliest posts were very much keep this great structure - but it is too late a finish to be planning for any/each week.
5k/12mins - would very likely finish by 1am - as would some other structures.
Looking forward to week 4/5
L
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looks like the structure for this week has been changed.....looks much better now.......wp APAT for listening and see you all on Sunday in League and UKIPT Satty ;D
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Ty Myles.
Just to confirm, we have added three new levels to the 4k / 12m structure, which should retain a 1am finishing time while offering more play in the opening two hours.
The DTD £1m Guaranteed UKIPT satellite will run alongside match 4 (starting at 8pm), to the same structure.
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Ty Myles.
Just to confirm, we have added three new levels to the 4k / 12m structure, which should retain a 1am finishing time while offering more play in the opening two hours.
The DTD £1m Guaranteed UKIPT satellite will run alongside match 4 (starting at 8pm), to the same structure.
Ty Des, seems like a sensible compromise. I will be playing.
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Ty Myles.
Just to confirm, we have added three new levels to the 4k / 12m structure, which should retain a 1am finishing time while offering more play in the opening two hours.
The DTD £1m Guaranteed UKIPT satellite will run alongside match 4 (starting at 8pm), to the same structure.
Great work - looking forward to both.
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Feels spot on now.
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Feels spot on now.
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Feels spot on now.
Definitely... :)
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Top tweakage. WP APAT
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Structure feels much better now - well done for that.
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Superb structure....Des is God ;D
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Well done guys
I can only echo what has already been said!
You always get there
cheers
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Structure great, league awesome, craic superb, dealers just meh :D
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I haven"t stayed in long enough the last few weeks to have any opinion on what people say about the "donkfest". I have today and think that the competition has been ruined by the changes.. I am really amazed by the amount of ALL-IN calls before 10pm. 20k stacks calling with J-7 and hitting.. The changes were done under pressure to appease the Europeans but I fear it has been a big mistake putting the emphasis on an early finish... Just my thoughts.
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The changes were done under pressure to appease the Europeans
Don"t think that"s the entirety of the reason
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The changes were done under pressure to appease the Europeans
Don"t think that"s the entirety of the reason
It was far from the entirety of the reason.
Bill is entitled to his view on the structure but isn"t entitled to make up the reason why it was changed in week 2 and again in week 4.
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An amazing first 6 weeks and still hitting over 250 runners. Just wondering did we hit 2500 runners yet over all? A huge well done to all the APAT team and players 8)