Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Fatcatstu on May 21, 2012, 14:07:47 PM
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Right, just a couple of quick questions here.
Firstly, AQo. How do we play it pre flop to a raise infront of us?
Secondly, how do we repsond to the daft little bet on the flop which is called.
PokerStars Hand #80781784771: Tournament #563814264, $4.10+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2012/05/21 13:52:16 WET [2012/05/21 8:52:16 ET]
Table "563814264 14" 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: tinybomb (2898 in chips)
Seat 3: OranGe195 (3685 in chips)
Seat 4: x BTK x (740 in chips)
Seat 5: fatcatstu (2485 in chips)
Seat 6: rui_plasma (1257 in chips)
Seat 7: Jevgeni1986 (1005 in chips)
Seat 8: daobachilla (1865 in chips)
Seat 9: WSZ10 (1830 in chips)
Jevgeni1986: posts small blind 25
daobachilla: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to fatcatstu [Ac Qh]
WSZ10: raises 100 to 150
tinybomb: folds
OranGe195: calls 150
x BTK x: folds
fatcatstu: calls 150
rui_plasma has timed out
rui_plasma: folds
rui_plasma is sitting out
Jevgeni1986: folds
daobachilla: folds
*** FLOP *** [4s Jh Qc]
WSZ10: bets 50
rui_plasma has returned
OranGe195: calls 50
fatcatstu: ??????
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Pre is fine, I would now raise for value. In fact I would treat this min bet as a check and act accordingly
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Pre is fine, I would now raise for value. In fact I would treat this min bet as a check and act accordingly
+1. Think flatting pre is probs optimal when all the info we have to go on is positional, and we have this stack size.
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Pre is fine, I would now raise for value. In fact I would treat this min bet as a check and act accordingly
+1, Any info on players Stu? The "daft" little bet is actually quite clever and can be very effective, especially if you"re original raiser and you missed or seen overcards to a PP. You can, alternatively use it to look weak when you"ve binked a smelly little set and it"ll keep people involved. Very dependant on how you read the 2 players in this spot IMO, but I"m also treating it as a check for now and jacking it up to about 450
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Pre is fine, I would now raise for value. In fact I would treat this min bet as a check and act accordingly
+1, Any info on players Stu? The "daft" little bet is actually quite clever and can be very effective, especially if you"re original raiser and you missed or seen overcards to a PP. You can, alternatively use it to look weak when you"ve binked a smelly little set and it"ll keep people involved. Very dependant on how you read the 2 players in this spot IMO, but I"m also treating it as a check for now and jacking it up to about 450
The tournament hadnt been running that long, i had chipped up a bit being my usual self, and other people doing the spazzy mental play early on, so no real reads at this stage.
ok, next bit...
*** FLOP *** [4s Jh Qc]
WSZ10: bets 50
rui_plasma has returned
OranGe195: calls 50
fatcatstu: raises 506 to 556
WSZ10: calls 506
OranGe195: folds
*** TURN *** [4s Jh Qc] [Ah]
WSZ10: bets 150
fatcatstu: ??????
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I mean KT is a fairly obvious hand but not as likely as AJ. Calling here isnt too bad but would probably put in a small raise and stack off.
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Pre is fine, I would now raise for value. In fact I would treat this min bet as a check and act accordingly
+1, Any info on players Stu? The "daft" little bet is actually quite clever and can be very effective, especially if you"re original raiser and you missed or seen overcards to a PP. You can, alternatively use it to look weak when you"ve binked a smelly little set and it"ll keep people involved. Very dependant on how you read the 2 players in this spot IMO, but I"m also treating it as a check for now and jacking it up to about 450
This...but the turn will be interesting.
in the absence of any information on the players I think it"s fine. With a little knowledge, a 3bet could be appropriate pre-flop as I think it will tend to polarise the hand you are up against.
This kind of smells of him flopping huge with JJ or QQ and falling prey to "fancy play syndrome". As played however, A raise is most definitely appropriate.
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Ok, you posted the turn while I was typing.
This smells even more like a set now. I"m proceeding very carefully.
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Meh - lots of ppl take this line for cheap showdown. Villain only has 1100 behind here and we r very likely crushing his lead small/lead small range. More than happy to raise get it in.
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*** TURN *** [4s Jh Qc] [Ah]
WSZ10: bets 150
fatcatstu: raises 1490 to 1640
WSZ10: calls 974 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (516) returned to fatcatstu
*** RIVER *** [4s Jh Qc Ah] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
WSZ10: shows [Jc Jd] (three of a kind, Jacks)
fatcatstu: shows [Ac Qh] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
WSZ10 collected 3935 from pot
Paulie had it spot on! WP sir!
To be honest, i thought that AJ was a massive chance for him here, and expected to pick the pot up. This isnt a bad beat story, i am just generally pretty poor at online poker (cue comments about live poker too :p ) so wanted a check to make sure i wasnt playing the hand like an utter dick!
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*** TURN *** [4s Jh Qc] [Ah]
WSZ10: bets 150
fatcatstu: raises 1490 to 1640
WSZ10: calls 974 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (516) returned to fatcatstu
*** RIVER *** [4s Jh Qc Ah] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
WSZ10: shows [Jc Jd] (three of a kind, Jacks)
fatcatstu: shows [Ac Qh] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
WSZ10 collected 3935 from pot
Paulie had it spot on! WP sir!
To be honest, i thought that AJ was a massive chance for him here, and expected to pick the pot up. This isnt a bad beat story, i am just generally pretty poor at online poker (cue comments about live poker too :p ) so wanted a check to make sure i wasnt playing the hand like an utter dick!
After his call against your flop raise, ask yourself what hand would you make that call with. Would you make that call with AJ Stu and leave only 1k behind in hope you hit one of your 5 outs?
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*** TURN *** [4s Jh Qc] [Ah]
WSZ10: bets 150
fatcatstu: raises 1490 to 1640
WSZ10: calls 974 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (516) returned to fatcatstu
*** RIVER *** [4s Jh Qc Ah] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
WSZ10: shows [Jc Jd] (three of a kind, Jacks)
fatcatstu: shows [Ac Qh] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
WSZ10 collected 3935 from pot
Paulie had it spot on! WP sir!
To be honest, i thought that AJ was a massive chance for him here, and expected to pick the pot up. This isnt a bad beat story, i am just generally pretty poor at online poker (cue comments about live poker too :p ) so wanted a check to make sure i wasnt playing the hand like an utter dick!
After his call against your flop raise, ask yourself what hand would you make that call with. Would you make that call with AJ Stu and leave only 1k behind in hope you hit one of your 5 outs?
Personally no. Good point.
I fear i may have been blinded by the bet sizing. That said, i dont mind terribly the way i played it, but there is definately something to look at going forward for me :)
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just peel pre is fine when this deep. On flop pump it to about 250 (for value), and get it in if he check raises.
just read outcome. you done nothing wrong imo. I will say though that these tournys play way more nitty than the turbo 180 MTTs. If it was a turbo i would be 3 betting pre for value with a view to stacking off.
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Make a note and move on
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*** TURN *** [4s Jh Qc] [Ah]
WSZ10: bets 150
fatcatstu: raises 1490 to 1640
WSZ10: calls 974 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (516) returned to fatcatstu
*** RIVER *** [4s Jh Qc Ah] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
WSZ10: shows [Jc Jd] (three of a kind, Jacks)
fatcatstu: shows [Ac Qh] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
WSZ10 collected 3935 from pot
Paulie had it spot on! WP sir!
To be honest, i thought that AJ was a massive chance for him here, and expected to pick the pot up. This isnt a bad beat story, i am just generally pretty poor at online poker (cue comments about live poker too :p ) so wanted a check to make sure i wasnt playing the hand like an utter dick!
wpwp
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Villains played it badly he"s just lucky you had top 2. With top pair or the bare Q you just call the 150 river bet normally i find those small bets are made with weak hands more than strong ones.
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Would love to see VP$IP/PRF values for him here. I will assume he is a decent type player at this level. FWIW Stu should have a big edge on this sort of player
Preflop
I sort of want to shove in these as you often get called by hands like AT, KJ, KQ and other dominated holdings. It"s not awful if he has a pair either. If you shove you expect two folds usually but effective stacks are too large, if you have starting stack then it is an easy shove. I would probably call too in this spot, the fact you have a decent edge makes it more of a call. My plan is very simple though. If I hit top pair on a decent board I am basically stacking off if I need too.
Flop
We hit TPTK on a decent board, I now want all the chips in the middle at this point.
We have a pot of 525 (3 way). I am certainly ignoring the bet of 50 and raising to about 400 for value, again I am pretty much expecting two folds. When he calls I 100% believe I am ahead. He might have a queen or be getting stubborn with a mid pair, KT is also in his range. I am NOT putting him on a set at all (it"s possible but really unlikely) or QJ unless I have reason too (I have no history so I don"t). What do I put him on? These types of hand:-
Q8, Q9, QT, QK, KT, KJ, AJ (I actually don"t think AJ is that bigger part of his range but he could have it).
He calls and we go to the turn.
The Ace is a bad card for us really. KT now beats us and the weaker Queens now may not pay us. I might just call the daft bet of 150 and then call whatever he bets on the river, this also slightly underreps my hand and I may pick off a river bluff, the weak queens in his range are quite likely to fold if raised and the only hands we want to play a big pot against are QJ or AJ (he COULD have AK I suppose). I think I gain more value this way as an ace does not feel like a big part of his range. I am calling here to keep the weaker hands in his range not because I think I am likely to be beaten. Also there is not much to protect my hand from, the flush draw is really unlikely and the str8 draw already got there.
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I disagree that his small lead on the flop means a set. Whilst sets are possible they are minor considerations for me compared to the classic donkey ploy to get to a cheap showdown or to try and complete a draw.
Agree that an A is not the greatest turn card for you, but no Shane in stacking off in what is basically a bit of a cooler.
Plenty to put in the notebook here though
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Cheers for the replies all, its all been taken note of and filed :)
I tend to just flat raises when i have AJ/AQ type of hands now, as more often than not I wont like flops that i see really, this is a major step away from my "usual" game which wouold have resulted in an insta re raise!!
On the flop, i was 100% convinced i was ahead, the thought of being behind never even entered my head to be honest, and when he bet i thought (as Rob said) that he was trying to get to showdown with some kind of wibbly wobbly holding that he didnt wanna fold, but wasnt too confident in. So i smacked the big raise in (this was my standard sizing, i tend to be a bit bigger than most for some reason) to get rid of the other person who had just flatted it, I had played a fair bit with them and my notes read "passive crap, raise them" :P
The turn gives me 2 pair, and i got a little sicky feeling in my stomach, but i had already made my mind up that i was getting it in unless something compelling told me not to. It didnt, so i followed my usual reasoning of "well im not folding, so if they want to see the river then they are paying it all :p I dont see the point in messing about the issue!
It is a cooler i suppose and thats not why i posted it, just wanted some feedback.
FWIW the way he played them confuses the hell out of me, but he gots all me chips so cant complain i suppose!
Thanks again, i will do this more often :)
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On the flop, i was 100% convinced i was ahead, the thought of being behind never even entered my head to be honest, and when he bet i thought (as Rob said) that he was trying to get to showdown with some kind of wibbly wobbly holding that he didnt wanna fold, but wasnt too confident in.
define the range you are wishing to get value from, and ask yourself how that range will react... have a reason for your bet sizes in every situation....
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The turn gives me 2 pair, and i got a little sicky feeling in my stomach, but i had already made my mind up that i was getting it in unless something compelling told me not to. It didnt, so i followed my usual reasoning of "well im not folding, so if they want to see the river then they are paying it all :p I dont see the point in messing about the issue!
I can see myself making the same play in the same situation a lot and it is often easily the best play.
But as Noble says we should be putting our opponent on a hand range and asking what is the best play against that range if hands. In this case the shove almost seems to get a lot of hands that we beat to fold and get a lot of hands we lose to to call. It is a cooler as we are ahead a lot more than we are behind but here we should be thinking about winning the maximum. What are we making him pay for? If he had a draw he just got there and a set is not going to fold. The only thing we want to pay is the flush draw which is not really likely. Just something that is worth considering I think.
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That"s why I prefer the 3 bet pre, it"s early enough in the comp to let him define his hand and we have position anyway.
In the absence of any information we have to assume that he"s got something fairly strong when he raises pre-flop and when he gets a caller he plays it stupid with a min c-bet?
Screams massive strength to me.
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That"s why I prefer the 3 bet pre, it"s early enough in the comp to let him define his hand and we have position anyway.
In the absence of any information we have to assume that he"s got something fairly strong when he raises pre-flop and when he gets a caller he plays it stupid with a min c-bet?
Screams massive strength to me.
3b sizing?
How do we react readless when 4b?
How do we continue when he peels (ie what are good/bad textures)?
Also, in the absence of any information, I would be more inclined to see a raise pre, min cbet line as an attempt at cheap show down as it is a non-standard value line.
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Cheers Noble and Rodders, that all makes alot of sense actually :) Now i think about it, this is stuff i tell other people, all the time, i definately got carried away here.
I limp in with AQ because i dont want to fold a reasonably strong hand pre if i am 4bet, which i suppose is also quite fishy now i come to think about it.
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WSZ10 obviously knows how to play Jacks :-)
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WSZ10 obviously knows how to play Jacks :-)
As does normski7 :(
http://www.holdemmanager.net
NL Holdem $200(BB) Boss Game#2886662202
lologan ($7,484)
Evil2 ($3,600)
eugen58 ($3,240)
normski777 ($6,840)
zaras1 ($4,200)
Chilli-Cro ($6,661)
david ($21,847)
felicieng ($3,600)
david antes $25
felicieng antes $25
lologan antes $25
Evil2 antes $25
eugen58 antes $25
normski777 antes $25
zaras1 antes $25
Chilli-Cro antes $25
lologan posts (SB) $100
Evil2 posts (BB) $200
Dealt to david Kd Jh
fold,
normski777 raises to $400
zaras1 calls $400
fold,
david calls $400
fold,
lologan calls $300
Evil2 calls $200
FLOP ($2,200) Js 8h 5s
lologan checks
Evil2 checks
normski777 bets $400
zaras1 folds
david raises to $1,050
lologan folds
Evil2 folds
normski777 raises to $3,200
david raises to $21,422 (AI)
normski777 calls $3,215 (AI)
TURN ($15,030) Js 8h 5s 8d
RIVER ($15,030) Js 8h 5s 8d Ac
david shows Kd Jh
(Pre 32%, Flop 0.3%, Turn 0.0%)
normski777 shows Jc Jd
(Pre 68%, Flop 99.7%, Turn 100.0%)
normski777 wins $15,030