Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: gerry5421 on June 03, 2012, 10:20:25 AM
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My first run in the Genting and biggest tourney i have played made day 2 with 53K and ran it up to 80k in first hour , dont want this to sound like a bad beat story, but want to learn from this so wondering if there is anyway i could have got away from it , obv a huge overbet by me after flop , but thinking behind it was that i had a chance of a double up to give me double average stack.
I had Kd Kc on button , blinds 2000/1000 folded to me i raise to 80000 Sb folds , BB calls - flop 7s 5h 8s , he checks I shove 70K he is massive stack just came to table , thinking AK, AQ and he has missed flop he instant calls with 9d 6h , nut straight and i am out.
No info on his type of play as just seated at table he must have had about 200k .
So inexperience on my part? i can see a huge overbet by me possible not the right play by me , but to be fair turn cam dud no A on river either so think my chip smayhave been in either way.
opinions guys please
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You know I am possibly not the best person to comment but I reckon you just got coolered he took a punt with a huge stack and got lucky. No regrets big man just dust yourself down and head first again.
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Rather than shoving I"d prefer a 20k cbet - give him the opportunity to check raise light. If called I jam turn unless I have a very good reason not to - there aren"t many of these good reasons.
Either way, I"m getting it in at some point most likely. He"s terrible, and you"re unlucky.
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Wow!
Firstly why raise so big preflop? 5k is plenty.
He makes a fairly loose peel, though has good implied odds (as his hand can flop big) and is unlikely to get in trouble post flop as he can easily throw one pair hands away.
What are you trying to achieve by your shove?
What hands do you think you will get a call from that you beat?
What do you put in his range?
IMO you have totally overplayed your hand.
If you had raised to 5k you could have bet half pot (another 5.5k) and found out he had something. You can then proceed with caution depending on turn and river cards.
No need to go broke in this hand.
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Lucas inexperience on my part probely a big part to be honest but some of my thinking rightly or wrongly.
Firstly why raise so big preflop? 5k is plenty.
4 x BB , unsure why to be honest half of me wanted him in the pot as he had a big enough stack to pay me off , but then i suppose i can see if he is calling it he may have a hand that beats me already , but if he shoves pre- then AA id likley and i can fold , hard as it may be.
He makes a fairly loose peel, though has good implied odds (as his hand can flop big) and is unlikely to get in trouble post flop as he can easily throw one pair hands away.
never thought of his hand in that way
What are you trying to achieve by your shove?
His check was making me think AK or AQ and he had missed and proberlly trying to take pot there rather than flip for an A
What hands do you think you will get a call from that you beat?
huge overbet , and i can see that now , didnt think it through at the time , again inexperience
Thnaks for the feedback guys has certainly made me think this hand in a different light.
had a great couple of days poker and at the end of the day i was freerolling for a fiver so the actual experience was invaluable alone.
Keep it coming
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Lucas is totally right. I"m not going to repeat it all cos he has said what I was going to. Read every one of his points carefully.
You need a reason for your bets (and other actions). What did you want him to do - call or fold? He is going to fold a hand worse than yours, so you are ensuring that you don"t get paid for your big hand. If he calls, you are losing. You might force a fold from a pair or draw that would have overtaken you, but that is the only upside - and you don"t need to bet 70k to do that.
As you have posted the question, I guess you"ve realised that you shouldn"t lose all your chips here, so at least you will play it differently the next time.
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Lucas is totally right. I"m not going to repeat it all cos he has said what I was going to. Read every one of his points carefully.
You need a reason for your bets (and other actions). What did you want him to do - call or fold? He is going to fold a hand worse than yours, so you are ensuring that you don"t get paid for your big hand. If he calls, you are losing. You might force a fold from a pair or draw that would have overtaken you, but that is the only upside - and you don"t need to bet 70k to do that.
As you have posted the question, I guess you"ve realised that you shouldn"t lose all your chips here, so at least you will play it differently the next time.
Thanks , yea i can see that i spent no time in thinking it out , and ultimatley that is my downfall , but as you say will make me stop and think the next time and its all a learning curve , thanks
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On my phone so can"t post loads but the hand is played really badly (by villain as well btw) and the flaws in play are pretty fundamental.
I would never 4x pre, even when 300bb deep at the start of a tournament. It is not clear whether you 4x all your opens or whether you reserve this for KK. However you should crave action with KK, not be scared of it. I would only raise 3x maximum but generally a bit smaller but I will open a wider range than you.
The flop kind of smacks a bb peeling range but you should mostly bet this for value as he can still have alot of 1pair hands that you beat However when you jam for 3x pot what sort of weaker hands do you expect villain to call off with? This bet works terribly as a value bet and never works as a bluff as villain will snap your cock off with any 2pair+ hands.
You need to consider what you are trying to achieve in a hand but it appears you are playing scared poker, which says it all when the title of the thread is "should I have got away from this?". In a 40bb tournament situation I am thinking more like, how can I get my opponent to commit alot of chips with a wider range as possible. Just c/bet normally (say10k as played) and play from there. You have position so should generally be able to make good decisions during the hand, you have negated this advantage by shoving the flop.
You didn"t lose the hand because you played it badly, you would have lost anyway, but there are several improvements to be made.
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On my phone so can"t post loads but the hand is played really badly (by villain as well btw) and the flaws in play are pretty fundamental.
I would never 4x pre, even when 300bb deep at the start of a tournament. It is not clear whether you 4x all your opens or whether you reserve this for KK. However you should crave action with KK, not be scared of it. I would only raise 3x maximum but generally a bit smaller but I will open a wider range than you.
The flop kind of smacks a bb peeling range but you should mostly bet this for value as he can still have alot of 1pair hands that you beat However when you jam for 3x pot what sort of weaker hands do you expect villain to call off with? This bet works terribly as a value bet and never works as a bluff as villain will snap your cock off with any 2pair+ hands.
You need to consider what you are trying to achieve in a hand but it appears you are playing scared poker, which says it all when the title of the thread is "should I have got away from this?". In a 40bb tournament situation I am thinking more like, how can I get my opponent to commit alot of chips with a wider range as possible. Just c/bet normally (say10k as played) and play from there. You have position so should generally be able to make good decisions during the hand, you have negated this advantage by shoving the flop.
You didn"t lose the hand because you played it badly, you would have lost anyway, but there are several improvements to be made.
Some very good stuff here , thanks , the normal pre raise was 3x and yea i guess the 4 x was cause of KK , totally see why c bet and re-evaluate would have worked a lot better , cant really rember what the turn and river turned out , but knoe there were no face cards , so could have proberly figured out on a straight at some point and although losing a chunk of chip , woul dhave still been in tourney.
This is all good guys , thanks
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not read all the replies, so apologies.
4x open is too big 2-2.5x is plenty as it means you can raise lighter with less risk to your stack.
The shove on the board is probably only getting called by better, so you don"t give villains with weaker hands a chance to make a mistake/ pay you off.
In response to your opening question. I don"t think you are getting away from this, but you could have played the hand better as you reduced your chances of winning a big pot at every turn
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not read all the replies, so apologies.
4x open is too big 2-2.5x is plenty as it means you can raise lighter with less risk to your stack.
The shove on the board is probably only getting called by better, so you don"t give villains with weaker hands a chance to make a mistake/ pay you off.
In response to your opening question. I don"t think you are getting away from this, but you could have played the hand better as you reduced your chances of winning a big pot at every turn
thanks rob
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It"s an interesting hand - if I am in the BB then I am normally calling your bet if I have 100BB.
Your bet does look like a telegraphed big pair or maybe AK or AQs.
I don"t think the implied odds are correct - paying 6k to win a max of 83k.
I don"t think the odds of flopping two pairs or better is good enough.
However with 17k in the pot - I would be more expecting something like 12/14k c-bet - or maybe a pot sized pot with the over pair.
If a normal c-bet is made then he can call with various draw and the implied odds pre flop hard to calc (in my head!)
Did you want the BB in the hand? Then raise to 4-5k : If you don"t then go all in.
Even if you raise to 4-5k here you have big problems here ... the board might help you escape as it develops ... hard to see how you avoid betting the flop and turn ... but you might just about retain 30k of your stack ...
L
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Thnaks for all the replys guys , can see where i went wrong , and inexperience is a big factor, still had a great time and was all good for me gaining experience at this level.
looking forward to doing another event soon and APAT in August
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Think most points have been covered. Anyone saying the 96 call is fine even if 300 bigs deep is wrong. It"s a terrible defend.
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Bet sizing is the main lesson I reckon, and I"ve been guilty of similar myself. I think the logic of massive overshove thinking he has AK or AQ is wrong as in those situations you want to keep him in the pot rather than stop the action. If you"re putting him on that sort of range then three quarter pot bet is better IMO.
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Think most points have been covered. Anyone saying the 96 call is fine even if 300 bigs deep is wrong. It"s a terrible defend.
At 300BB you are paying 3BB for the chance to stack your opponent - feels like a pretty cheap call to make with massive upside.
Given only 40BB to win here - it is a pretty loose/rubbish call to make - I will leave my previous post to amuse myself - good evidence that I have become way too loose at making hopeful/hero calls.
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You won"t have 300bb for long if you keep peeling 4x raises with trashy hands and you don"t stack opponents nearly often enough
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It"s a cooler Gerry but like the guys said above, there was no need to go broke with this, particularly after you got yourself to a healthier position after your day 2 opening stack. Massive jam on flop gets you no value if you"re ahead and only likely to get called by someone who"s spiked their set (obv not expecting 9/6os though) and you"re left gutted.
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Think most points have been covered. Anyone saying the 96 call is fine even if 300 bigs deep is wrong. It"s a terrible defend.
At 300BB you are paying 3BB for the chance to stack your opponent - feels like a pretty cheap call to make with massive upside.
Given only 40BB to win here - it is a pretty loose/rubbish call to make - I will leave my previous post to amuse myself - good evidence that I have become way too loose at making hopeful/hero calls.
So you"re basically peeling atc in the hope of stacking an opponent when this deep?
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If i was sat on a table and seen someone defend from BB with 96o im insta licking my lips to try and play flops with him.
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Think most points have been covered. Anyone saying the 96 call is fine even if 300 bigs deep is wrong. It"s a terrible defend.
At 300BB you are paying 3BB for the chance to stack your opponent - feels like a pretty cheap call to make with massive upside.
Given only 40BB to win here - it is a pretty loose/rubbish call to make - I will leave my previous post to amuse myself - good evidence that I have become way too loose at making hopeful/hero calls.
So you"re basically peeling atc in the hope of stacking an opponent when this deep?
Yes - I would pay 3BB to have a shot at 300BB - I accept that people will be licking their lips ... but that would make me lick my lips (squared)
I really do need to get back to the tables ...
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And what about the times u flop something that"s not the nuts? Spose u just check fold the K96 board? Or the 9 high flop?
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Our bb peeling range obv has to take into account villain type. Sure we can peel 96o 300x deep if villain is terrible and going to stack off with overpairs/tptk, but the standard is improving, and this won"t apply the vast majority of the time. A lot of articles years ago talked about the implied odds of peels from the bb, but I dnt really think it applies as much now that people positional awareness and general hand-reading abilities are so much better.
Also:
And what about the times u flop something that"s not the nuts? Spose u just check fold the K96 board? Or the 9 high flop?
Reverse implied odds >>> implied odds in these cases without added info about villain
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Our bb peeling range obv has to take into account villain type. Sure we can peel 96o 300x deep if villain is terrible and going to stack off with overpairs/tptk, but the standard is improving, and this won"t apply the vast majority of the time. A lot of articles years ago talked about the implied odds of peels from the bb, but I dnt really think it applies as much now that people positional awareness and general hand-reading abilities are so much better.
Also:
And what about the times u flop something that"s not the nuts? Spose u just check fold the K96 board? Or the 9 high flop?
Reverse implied odds >>> implied odds in these cases without added info about villain
Exactly. Conditions have to be perfect to make this call remotely profitable otherwise you"re just burning money.
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And what about the times u flop something that"s not the nuts? Spose u just check fold the K96 board? Or the 9 high flop?
On both of the above I would draw the 9 or 6 required ...
These are obviously problem hands ...
The counter to the above is when you get paid on three barrelled bluffs with missed AK typed hands ...
All the face to face tournaments I have played have featured a lot of tragic play and little sign of any amazing leap in standard ... that said I am down to very low volume of tournament play at the moment.
Further if people are getting great at laying down KK then even more scope to bluff with the worse hand ...
How many BB would you want to start playing here?
L
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"Amusingly" - Just got slaughtered in the Big $55 calling with 42o pre flop ... flop ... 842 rainbow ... my opponents does the betting for me ... turn 9 ... he goes all in ... I call ... he holds A8 ... river A ... standard ... 92 vs 110 BB at the start of the hand ...
(still alive with 20BB) ... would have gone 7th of 1345 - albeit very early days ...
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"Amusingly" - Just got slaughtered in the Big $55 calling with 42o pre flop ... flop ... 842 rainbow ... my opponents does the betting for me ... turn 9 ... he goes all in ... I call ... he holds A8 ... river A ... standard ... 92 vs 110 BB at the start of the hand ...
(still alive with 20BB) ... would have gone 7th of 1345 - albeit very early days ...
Rio in operation.
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"Amusingly" - Just got slaughtered in the Big $55 calling with 42o pre flop ... flop ... 842 rainbow ... my opponents does the betting for me ... turn 9 ... he goes all in ... I call ... he holds A8 ... river A ... standard ... 92 vs 110 BB at the start of the hand ...
(still alive with 20BB) ... would have gone 7th of 1345 - albeit very early days ...
Rio in operation.
Actual hh pls.
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96 isnt a problem hand, because you should just throw it away in this situation.
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Actual hh pls.
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Roughly : Start of hand : Blinds 25/50 : I am in the BB with 42o : I have c5500 : Villain c4600 : Average c3200
Early position limper is raised all in by micro stack 185.
Button calls - I call - early limper calls.
Flop 842 rainbow - checked to button who bets 500 into 740 - I call - early limper folds.
Turn 9 - I check - Villian all in 3890 overbet into 1740 - I call : River A.
It"s very slightly different - but for a 5 outer on river - in great shape with trash call ...
L
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Honestly Louis you"re much better off folding this crap pre even deep.
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Yeah, huge huge leak.
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... so back to the question ... how many BBs each before you call?
It"s not a leak at 1000BB - and probably not at 300BB (or less) ... the Button doesn"t always have a big pair ...
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... so back to the question ... how many BBs each before you call?
It"s not a leak at 1000BB - and probably not at 300BB (or less) ... the Button doesn"t always have a big pair ...
It actually gets worse the deeper you get.
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Devils Advocate Hat On:.............
If you are only playing very small volume then you will rarely see the error of playing hands like this OOP (providing you have decent post flop skills), so it does feel correct to play any two cards. In fact you could extend this to limp calling from any position and flatting behind every raise.
I remember reading about Alan Mansbridge winning GUKPT Walsall last year and the stick he got from a lot of blonde members for his constant "unprofitable peeling" and subsequent "getting there".
[ ] I"m sure he was gutted about his poor play as he banked his 40 large
My hat on:
You will lose more in small pots (and the odd big pot) than you will ever gain in big pots (and the odd small pot) playing hands like this out of position
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Interesting post with regards to Alan Mansbridge ...
I think if you are deep enough and are confident in playing post flop then all sorts of possibilities open up ... of course much better to play them in position.
I ran a summary of this post past my home game players ... who basically agreed with the posts here ... much better spots to find ... which is fair ...
Even at 300BB each - this dominated the possible implied odds of stacking big hands ...
For me its a great weapon when deep enough ... albeit probably a need to temper the frequency that one uses it ...
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Ha, srsly the deeper we are the worse it is !
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... so back to the question ... how many BBs each before you call?
It"s not a leak at 1000BB - and probably not at 300BB (or less) ... the Button doesn"t always have a big pair ...
deep 300bb+ your implied odds increase but so do your reverse implied, so hands that can make the nuts become more valuable eg - suited aces, connected and bigger pairs
of the 3 connected is arguably the better as your hand can be more disguised, big pairs are ok cos u can over set some1, over flushing some1 deep u need to be up against the right type of opponent...
if calling stuff like 96o 42o etc deep its ok against the right opponent, eg - against a tighty who over plays big pairs then if u peel with the intention of flopping 2pair plus then no problem imo..
up against a loose range deep with 96o 42o etc then the cards aren"t quite so important cos u should be bluffing more against oppo"s with wider ranges, its harder to get paid off by them cos the range is wide, u bluff to get your strong hands paid off in the future... if flopping 2pair+ with the crud then thats a bonus :)
My hat on:
You will lose more in small pots (and the odd big pot) than you will ever gain in big pots (and the odd small pot) playing hands like this out of position
against the wider range u"ll win some small pots with the crud by bluffing :) but it will help your strong hands Rob, if u are playing deep against hopeless types who stack off light or put to much money in post with over pairs or tptk etc then CALL the crud :)