Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: Curlarge on July 11, 2012, 19:55:07 PM
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While we are all waiting for the 8pm announcement, i"d like to through this into the arena for your consideration.
Many events now offer 1 re-entry during the first 2-3 levels, although I understand DTD has now changed it"s policy here.
We had a situation in Cork where a very prominent APATer. who shall remain nameless (he likes to walk on water, supports West Ham and has a hammer, but thats not important right now), made an error of judgement at 2.36pm and was eliminated from the ME.
I am in favour of 1 re-entry for the following reasons.
1. Not all APAT events sell out and this would allow the prize fund to be enhanced should a player wish to re-enter.
2. Most APAT events involve considerable expenses to the player for Travel, Food, Hotels, Buy-in etc.., and I feel that the "fear" of busting early may be putting some people off attending. Whilst I accept that putting you hand even deeper into your pocket is no-ones idea of fun, it does at least provide the option.
3. I also accept that some players may choose to use this facility, should it be offered, to play recklessly in the initial period, but would any of us actually notice if Scouse, Dan Owston or Stu Ward tried to take advantage of this?
On a more serious note, it simply provides the option to any player who finds themselves in this situation early on, in an event they have made a considerable effort to attend, both in time any money.
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Points well made, travel etc - I for one would be in favour of 1 re-entry in the event of a total bust out in the first level.
Going to the bottom of the alternate list of course, if there is one.
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I can see the advantages and disadvantages of both.
From a personal point of view, I"ve gotten to know the people better after exits and spending much time in bars drinking ;D ( says a lot I know!). It"s a toughie!
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Please please no. £75 is not cheap but the best offer in the market place.
RE just excludes even more so the average amatuer players bankroll.
There are plenty of high buyin / RE in the marketplace it doesn"t need more.
As a side event maybe fine, but not the main tournament please.
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I can see the advantages and disadvantages of both.
I talked a little bit about this with Curlage and others in Cork over the weekend.
I have always been against re-entries as a general rule BUT the exceptional circumstances of an APAT event convinced me that a single re-entry would only benefit APAT for all the reasons Richard has stated.
Clearly if we"re at DTD and their "house" policy is to the contrary I see no problem why ECOAP and WCOAP events could be excepted from he re-entry option.
So...stick me in the "Yes" colum.
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No re-entry!!! People need to accept they can get unlucky in a tournament and go out early and for other players it is a reminder to keep them from playing every hand just because they know that if they bust they can re-enter. Keep it a freezeout please!!!
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Please please no. £75 is not cheap but the best offer in the market place.
RE just excludes even more so the average amatuer players bankroll.
I don"t see this.
If you were only going to fire one bullet anyway then it doesn"t matter than another person can exercise an OPTION to re-enter (not re-buy).....and they are limited to a SINGLE re-entry.
Plus they"ll come in AFTER any existing alternates so it"s quite possible they won"t get in at all.
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I"m in favour of having a re-entry especially when the tournament is nowhere near capacity (as happened in Cork)
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I"m not a lover of re-entries/rebuys, but don"t believe a single re-entry limited to the first 2 or 3 levels would be anything but advantageous for the reasons highlighted by Richard in the initial post. I"m one of those who generally has to book hotels/flights/leave to get to APAT events as there"s generally only 1 tourney a season in Scotland. So far I"ve never suffered that kind of very early exit (nobody mention the Cardiff PLO :P) in the NLHE, but believe it would be pretty sickening after the effort & expense of getting to the event in the first place.
It would of course be optional, so if it"s not within your bankroll or it"s not your thing for another reason then you have the choice to re-enter or not. I doubt very much it"s going to change the gameplay for the vast majority of APAT players and I don"t see there being a huge increase in the numbers of exits in those first 2/3 levels.
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This argument for having a single re-entry is exactly the same argument as for having rebuys.
If you accept you can have 1 re-entry if you bust out in the first level - why not 2 in the first level? or 3? The length of time you"re in the tournament has been exactly the same so wouldn"t the argument about having spent the money to get there be exactly the same?
I don"t really think there"s much in the argument that it might have put people off entering an APAT event either - I think it might make people less willing to commit all their chips earlier on; but I don"t think it"s particularly going to stop anyone entering in the first place. Everybody knows where they are with a freezeout and everybody is on a level playing field - I don"t see any compelling reason to change it.
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This argument for having a single re-entry is exactly the same argument as for having rebuys.
Absolutely disagree. I think a single re-entry is a very different animal than a re-buy event.
Everyone knows that with a re-buy you have to have two or three nature pull-ups going in.
With a single re-entry you have the option of mitigating the variance of the whole weekend being wasted.
As I mentioned above, I am no great lover of re-entries as a rule but in this limited set of circumstances I can"t see a real downside.
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I would agree with one re-entry but only in the circumstances of really bad luck namely:
the standard APAT first level hand of KK v AA where all the chips will get in the pot whatever way, or
AA gets busted when all the chips are in pre
Anything else is just rewarding sloppy play with a second chance, and I certainly wouldn"t agree with a re-entry for "lack of judgement".
Also any re-entry would go to the bottom of the alternate list as per Ger"s post
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I would agree with one re-entry but only in the circumstances of really bad luck
Can"t see this working as deciding on levels of bad luck that should apply would be, for all intents and purposes, impossible.
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Rebuy = You"re sat at the same table, you don"t leave your seat.
Re-Entry = You get up, join the back of the queue for entries. If you do get in, it"s on a different table.
Very different, and I"d be massively in favour. It would make little material difference to everyone, save giving someone on the wrong side of a cooler a chance to make something of a weekend away. And if someone wants to donate - more money in the prizepool. Those types are VERY welcome ;)
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3. I also accept that some players may choose to use this facility, should it be offered, to play recklessly in the initial period, but would any of us actually notice if Scouse, Dan Owston or Stu Ward tried to take advantage of this?
honoured that you put me in such high company!!!
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Please please no. £75 is not cheap but the best offer in the market place.
RE just excludes even more so the average amatuer players bankroll.
I don"t see this.
If you were only going to fire one bullet anyway then it doesn"t matter than another person can exercise an OPTION to re-enter (not re-buy).....and they are limited to a SINGLE re-entry.
Plus they"ll come in AFTER any existing alternates so it"s quite possible they won"t get in at all.
IMO it changes the whole dynamic of the event if people play with a strategy of the intention to use the option to re-enter. So they"ll play differently than they would if it was a freeze out.
So players with bigger bankrolls etc will gain more advantage as they"ll play without fear of "doing a don"!
I understand the travelling costs etc and I"ve taken several events where it"s taken my longer to come and go them I played but I know that when I set off!! Skillz that I have and all it"s part n parcel I would struggle to commit to £150 to play in a tournament that I know I"m no where-near the best. But its the chance to win something to compete against better players and to enjoy the superb atompshere at APAt events.
£75 is do-able and a decent amount but for a great day or 2 out.
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I would agree with one re-entry but only in the circumstances of really bad luck
Can"t see this working as deciding on levels of bad luck that should apply would be, for all intents and purposes, impossible.
Which is why I detailed them in my post
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Please please no. £75 is not cheap but the best offer in the market place.
RE just excludes even more so the average amatuer players bankroll.
I don"t see this.
If you were only going to fire one bullet anyway then it doesn"t matter than another person can exercise an OPTION to re-enter (not re-buy).....and they are limited to a SINGLE re-entry.
Plus they"ll come in AFTER any existing alternates so it"s quite possible they won"t get in at all.
IMO it changes the whole dynamic of the event if people play with a strategy of the intention to use the option to re-enter. So they"ll play differently than they would if it was a freeze out.
So players with bigger bankrolls etc will gain more advantage as they"ll play without fear of "doing a don"!
I understand the travelling costs etc and I"ve taken several events where it"s taken my longer to come and go them I played but I know that when I set off!! Skillz that I have and all it"s part n parcel I would struggle to commit to £150 to play in a tournament that I know I"m no where-near the best. But its the chance to win something to compete against better players and to enjoy the superb atompshere at APAt events.
£75 is do-able and a decent amount but for a great day or 2 out.
Not only would the players with bigger bankrolls play without the fear of being knocked out - but they would completely mathematically be correct to do so. There are several situations, particularly deepstacked, where a marginal decision in a freezeout would be a fold because being knocked out of the tournament wouldn"t be worth the risk of the amount of extra equity you would gain by winning the pot. But if you knew you definitely weren"t going to be knocked out of the tournament then obviously the equity gained becomes greater than the risk involved.
I think a re-entry would put off more people then it would attract. There are plenty of people who could afford £75, but they couldn"t afford £150 - and I don"t think it would really be worth the risk of taking your one bullet and pitting it against those with the bankroll who can afford to reload.
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As the person quoted in the original post, I must say I was not party to these conversations over the weekend, and in no way was there any sour grapes from me that led to the conversation starting. I made the mistake of committing all my chips that early on in the tournament and paid a heavy price, but I have learnt from the experience and that can only make me a better player in the future, which is what playing Apat is all about to me, pitting yourself against some of the best amateur players in the country and trying to improve. Believe me I took enough stick in the Shelbourne Bar to last me a life time.
However I am against the Re-Entry option, as I feel all past Apat Champions have had to go through the freezeout option, and I just feel that in the unlikely event of me winning one, my achievement would somehow feel tainted to me if I had re-entered, to me it just would not seem right.
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As the person quoted in the original post, I must say I was not party to these conversations over the weekend, and in no way was there any sour grapes from me that led to the conversation starting. I made the mistake of committing all my chips that early on in the tournament and paid a heavy price, but I have learnt from the experience and that can only make me a better player in the future which is what playing Apat is all about to me, pitting yourself against some of the best amateur players in the country and trying to improve. Believe me I took enough stick in the Shelbourne to last a life time.
However I am against the Re-Entry option, as I feel all past Apat Champions have had to go through the freezeout option, and I just feel that in the unlikely event of me winning one, my achievement would somehow feel tainted to me if I had re-entered, to me it just would not seem right.
Don is quite right that he wasn"t party to, or involved in, the conversation I had with Des and subsequently Paulie, Ger and JP.
Don"s exit mearly highlighted the worse case scenario of travelling to an overseas event and busting early and it got me to thinking that if we could provide a "safety net" for those who come unstuck, more people might consider the trip.
APAT is all about friendship, and by god we tested Don"s to the max, and I"m pleased to say it appears that I am still his friend, for which I am grateful.
p.s. 2.36pm is forever to be known as "Hammer Time" ;) ;)
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As the person quoted in the original post, I must say I was not party to these conversations over the weekend, and in no way was there any sour grapes from me that led to the conversation starting. I made the mistake of committing all my chips that early on in the tournament and paid a heavy price, but I have learnt from the experience and that can only make me a better player in the future, which is what playing Apat is all about to me, pitting yourself against some of the best amateur players in the country and trying to improve. Believe me I took enough stick in the Shelbourne Bar to last me a life time.
However I am against the Re-Entry option, as I feel all past Apat Champions have had to go through the freezeout option, and I just feel that in the unlikely event of me winning one, my achievement would somehow feel tainted to me if I had re-entered, to me it just would not seem right.
well put Don.
I"ll be honest and let you know that I was horrified you stuck 300BBs in with KK and am glad that you will learn from the experience.
Not a fan of APAT events being re-entry. Bigger rolls have a license to gamble in the first few levels meaning a different dynamic and a possible unfair advantage to these players. The usual response to this would be that players should be rolled for 2 bullets or shouldn"t play, but this isn"t what APAT is about IMO.
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As the person quoted in the original post, I must say I was not party to these conversations over the weekend, and in no way was there any sour grapes from me that led to the conversation starting. I made the mistake of committing all my chips that early on in the tournament and paid a heavy price, but I have learnt from the experience and that can only make me a better player in the future, which is what playing Apat is all about to me, pitting yourself against some of the best amateur players in the country and trying to improve. Believe me I took enough stick in the Shelbourne Bar to last me a life time.
However I am against the Re-Entry option, as I feel all past Apat Champions have had to go through the freezeout option, and I just feel that in the unlikely event of me winning one, my achievement would somehow feel tainted to me if I had re-entered, to me it just would not seem right.
well put Don.
I"ll be honest and let you know that I was horrified you stuck 300BBs in with KK and am glad that you will learn from the experience.
Not a fan of APAT events being re-entry. Bigger rolls have a license to gamble in the first few levels meaning a different dynamic and a possible unfair advantage to these players. The usual response to this would be that players should be rolled for 2 bullets or shouldn"t play, but this isn"t what APAT is about IMO.
Why anyone would want to play TWICE when Ger Smyth Snr is the tour guide of choice for APAT Abroad after poker excursions is well and truely beyond me.
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Ger Smyth Snr is the tour guide of choice for APAT Abroad after poker excursions ....
True but he has the huge advantage of a great deal of pre-planning from the Guru.
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I"d be in favour given my APAT record.
Not usually a fan but have been there when I have travelled 4 hours to get knocked out really early and think 1 second chance for a limited time would make me more likely to travel to APAT events again
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I think 1 re-entry up until the first break (seems to be standard) or 2 levels say, would be reasonable.
I suffered a runner, runner, "1 outa", at Cardiff having flopped the nuts, and ended up spending the next 4 hours doing nothing as the venue was too small to run their usual Saturday night game, and there were no cash games until 9pm.
I"m sure that this is an issue for some members, and it certainly has nothing to do with the mathmatics of whether someone should call within this period. It"s all about giving the best possible experience for the vast majority.
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Travelling all the way to Cork and out in 34 mins? Some sort of re-entry in the first couple of levels seems like the humane thing to do in this situation.
At the WSOP this year (blatant brag) my event was a re-entry, and as far as I could see it just meant we had a bigger pot. It certainly didn"t affect the way I played, but then there was no way I was forking out another $1,500! In terms of affecting the way others played who might have been planning a re-entry, it just meant they played worse or made little difference. I remember Sam Trickett playing a bit of a loose hand, but that was to the benefit of the player who got all his chips. What a **** WSOP he had...
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Ger Smyth Snr is the tour guide of choice for APAT Abroad after poker excursions ....
True but he has the huge advantage of a great deal of pre-planning from the Guru.
And that is what makes these weekends, without which they would be lessened
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Freeze-out for me, I know my sentiment may change after a particularly bad beat but there usually is a bar and I like frequenting them ::).
I know if I am in a re-entry I would play looser and that wouldn"t be right (it might be the norm however) ;D.
Ian
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Ger Smyth Snr is the tour guide of choice for APAT Abroad after poker excursions ....
True but he has the huge advantage of a great deal of pre-planning from the Guru.
I assumed that the tour guide was hired by the honourable Travel Guru to entertain the unwashed masses?
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Travelling all the way to Cork and out in 34 mins? Some sort of re-entry in the first couple of levels seems like the humane thing to do in this situation.
At the WSOP this year (blatant brag) my event was a re-entry, and as far as I could see it just meant we had a bigger pot. It certainly didn"t affect the way I played, but then there was no way I was forking out another $1,500! In terms of affecting the way others played who might have been planning a re-entry, it just meant they played worse or made little difference. I remember Sam Trickett playing a bit of a loose hand, but that was to the benefit of the player who got all his chips. What a **** WSOP he had...
5 mins 40 secs approx. (2.30 ko)
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Massively against, as I would imagine all the couples are.
Theoretically £300 for a weekend? I love APAT, but that"s way out of my bankroll.
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Massively against, as I would imagine all the couples are.
Theoretically £300 for a weekend? I love APAT, but that"s way out of my bankroll.
Nobody is forcing you to re-enter. It"s just a backstop for first few levels for those that may want to take it up. I can"t see it affecting the play that much tbh
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Massively against, as I would imagine all the couples are.
Theoretically £300 for a weekend? I love APAT, but that"s way out of my bankroll.
It"s not complusory Adam. Anyway when did you last play before level 6?? ;) ;)
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I assumed that the tour guide was hired by the honourable Travel Guru to entertain the unwashed masses?
Nah...we"re both unpaid but enthusiastic volunteers.
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Massively against, as I would imagine all the couples are.
Theoretically £300 for a weekend? I love APAT, but that"s way out of my bankroll.
It"s not complusory Adam. Anyway when did you last play before level 6?? ;) ;)
And Julie is much better than him anyway.
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Massively against, as I would imagine all the couples are.
Theoretically £300 for a weekend? I love APAT, but that"s way out of my bankroll.
Nobody is forcing you to re-enter. It"s just a backstop for first few levels for those that may want to take it up. I can"t see it affecting the play that much tbh
But as has been said before - if you can afford to re-enter you will have an advantage over those who can"t.
People who can re-enter will be more likely to accumulate a bigger chip stack earlier on because they will be able to take more risks.
A few people who have got knocked out in the first level in the past might go to an event when they otherwise wouldn"t - but they"ll be greatly outnumbered by the people who know they"ll be at a competitive disadvantage to those with a bigger bankroll.
Even if it ended up not affecting how people play (which it should, unless people with the re-entry option played sub-optimally) - it would be too late by then, the fact that they have that theoretical advantage will already have stopped people from entering.
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How many people actually bust in the first level. Very few iirc
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Just one word NO NO NO sorry thats three words but my response would be NO so that"s a NO from me
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Just one word NO NO NO sorry thats three words but my response would be NO so that"s a NO from me
I don"t get some people, why bother posting if youre just going to sit on the fence
;D
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This thread is turning into some kind of a member"s vote - and that"s before the APAT hierarchy has commented on whether or not the introduction of a re-entry would even be a possibility. Seems we"re putting the cart before the horse.
But seeing as we"re all putting our tuppence worth in, I"m with Wayne - No, No, No. Re-entries are not what APAT Main Events are about, as someone said earlier, it doesn"t feel right.
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Just one word NO NO NO sorry thats three words but my response would be NO so that"s a NO from me
I don"t get some people, why bother posting if youre just going to sit on the fence
;D
Sorry did I not make myself clear :)
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I managed to do my whole stack in 15 mins at Cardiff one season.
a) Partly down to flopping a straight and wondering why some bloke was going bananas... then him hitting the higher straight on the turn haha.. genius.
b) Partly down to the champagne / beers consumed on the flight down.
c) Partly down to looking like an idiot in a bright yellow hoodie.
Des got a photo of me leaving my seat. This was back in the day when people clapped. I told everyone not to and to pretend I was just disappearing to the loo for a long time.
So its then a choice of £75 at the bar having a good time and telling everyone I"m a donkey or new option b of reentering.
I vote option a every day of the week. Even when in a foreign country. Banter is what its all about for me x
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Spain APAT. I manage to lose 3/4 of my stack on the first hand of the day with 4 high :) Was out sshortly later.
Would i have re entered if i had the chance? Nope. I would pick going to the bat and having a whale of a time with Craig MacInnes, my brother and everyone else who was busting around me :D It was top banter, which for me is what APAT weekends are about now.
i love playing poker and want to do well, but if it doesnt go well, i want to spend some time with the quality people that go down who i now call good friends.
The re entry idea WOULD play into the hands of the maniacs in the field (cant believe i have been put into that group, i am a nit!!) So i think it would have to be a no from me.
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A definite no for me.
I would feel like I would need to be rolled for two bullets to play optimally. This would mean I would play less APAT events.
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for me a freeze out is a freeze out. you pay your money and take your chances. i think allowing one re entry would detract from the championships. a freeze out makes for better play as players are less likely to commit to an all in. eg in ireland i had pr 10"s I raised and got a caller. the flop was 6 high. i bet and was re-raised, i called, the turn was an ace. now i am up against a loose player and he may well of played a rag ace and hold 2 pr are he may have the ace with a high kicker, so i check, he moves all in for his last 11,000, i have him well covered and i believe i am probably in front. i am so tempted to make the call but it is a freeze out, then i remember the words of a very good player from newcastle, if in doubt get out and wait for a better spot. now if it had been a re-entry i snap call. all the big championships are freeze outs, why? it is a purer form of poker. A re-entry would favour the richer players and would also take away equal chances of winning. hence i believe a re-entry would detract from the apat championships and am against it..
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What"s the question ? ;D
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What"s the question ? ;D
Where"s our Advent Calendar??
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What"s the question ? ;D
Where"s our Advent Calendar??
APAT Marketing Director Job Specification
1 - Advent Calendar
2 - Any Other Business
I"m fully aware of the responsibilties of the role. ;D
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Massively against, as I would imagine all the couples are.
Theoretically £300 for a weekend? I love APAT, but that"s way out of my bankroll.
Nobody is forcing you to re-enter. It"s just a backstop for first few levels for those that may want to take it up. I can"t see it affecting the play that much tbh
But as has been said before - if you can afford to re-enter you will have an advantage over those who can"t.
People who can re-enter will be more likely to accumulate a bigger chip stack earlier on because they will be able to take more risks.
A few people who have got knocked out in the first level in the past might go to an event when they otherwise wouldn"t - but they"ll be greatly outnumbered by the people who know they"ll be at a competitive disadvantage to those with a bigger bankroll.
Even if it ended up not affecting how people play (which it should, unless people with the re-entry option played sub-optimally) - it would be too late by then, the fact that they have that theoretical advantage will already have stopped people from entering.
^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^
On another note I think as a side event, perhaps in a festival a £5 re buy £10 add on would be a fun tourney.. Gives those who fancy a gamble early on to build a stack, whilst nits could perhaps take advantage and make a nice score from a poultry buy in/add on.. 20 min blinds re buys available till end of level 5 add on for £10..?
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mmm....NO from me. If I could afford it (which I can"t) I would play every draw in first two levels - happy days if i hit, hand in pocket if i don"t.
Not in the spirit of APAT imo.
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mmm....NO from me. If I could afford it (which I can"t) I would play every draw in first two levels - happy days if i hit, hand in pocket if i don"t.
Not in the spirit of APAT imo.
errr Mark , you play every draw in the first 10 levels anyway??? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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mmm....NO from me. If I could afford it (which I can"t) I would play every draw in first two levels - happy days if i hit, hand in pocket if i don"t.
Not in the spirit of APAT imo.
errr Mark , you play every draw in the first 10 levels anyway??? ;D ;D ;D ;D
True story!!
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As at the moment there is no re-entry , I don"t play every DRAW ;D, only those with a calculated +ev risk
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As at the moment there is no re-entry , I don"t play every DRAW ;D, only those with a calculated +ev risk and a few with -ev risk as well, in fact all draws
FYP
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i personally disagree with rebuy/re-entry at apat events on the basis that we travel a great distance to play in them and i would be really annoyed if after knocking someone out on my table and i got moved to the same persons table then knocked out of tourney by him/her i would personally feel cheated, if i wanted to play in rebuy/re-entry i would just drive up the road to my local casino so i vote a resounding NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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DTD were the innovators behind re-entry, but even they are now pulling away from the concept.... That should tell us something.
Level playing field FTW.
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DTD were the innovators behind re-entry, but even they are now pulling away from the concept.... That should tell us something.
Level playing field FTW.
+1
Rob Yong"s thoughts on re-entry...
http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/blog.php?profile=4 (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/blog.php?profile=4)
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DTD were the innovators behind re-entry, but even they are now pulling away from the concept.... That should tell us something.
Level playing field FTW.
In this country maybe, but lots of Las Vegas cardrooms have always allowed re-entry; and at the levels of juice they charge why wouldn"t they??
DTD"s move away from re-entries may in part be down to Rob"s "level playing field" ideal, but I suspect it is more driven by a simple formula... (Increased Tournament Juice)<(Lost Cash Game Rake).
When the gaming regulations surrounding poker were relaxed a few years ago I was quite happy with much of the freedom this now allows i.e. Late reg, Alternates. But allowing the charging of juice on re-buys (sorry, re-entry) is definitely not something I am in favour of.
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To have a re-entry or not...i am against re-entry for the simple reason of that point that Richard said playeres playing wild nowing they have a re-entry....and theN rivering somebody that is playing their game.....Tournament Poker for me should be ....You Pay...You Play your game if you lose you are out simple has that.....so often i see re-entry tournaments-------people playing they game and on asshole or two with the oldest excuse in the Book....HMMMMMMMM I HAVE TO PAY I HAVE 1 OUT....AND I CAN RE-ENTRY WHY NOT LETS PAY FOR MY ONE OUT...AND BINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...................IT CAME................AND YOU THAT MADE ALWAYS THE RIGHT MOVES ARE AT THE CASHIER WASTING YOUR MONEY BECAUSE ONE DONK HAD STILL A RE-ENTRY AND DECIDED TO HAVE A BINGO GO......SO NO TO THE RE-ENTRIES A SAY.......YOU LOSE TOUGH ...........GO FISH TO THE POND I SAY!!!!!
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To have a re-entry or not...i am against re-entry for the simple reason of that point that Richard said playeres playing wild nowing they have a re-entry....and theN rivering somebody that is playing their game.....Tournament Poker for me should be ....You Pay...You Play your game if you lose you are out simple has that.....so often i see re-entry tournaments-------people playing they game and on asshole or two with the oldest excuse in the Book....HMMMMMMMM I HAVE TO PAY I HAVE 1 OUT....AND I CAN RE-ENTRY WHY NOT LETS PAY FOR MY ONE OUT...AND BINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...................IT CAME................AND YOU THAT MADE ALWAYS THE RIGHT MOVES ARE AT THE CASHIER WASTING YOUR MONEY BECAUSE ONE DONK HAD STILL A RE-ENTRY AND DECIDED TO HAVE A BINGO GO......SO NO TO THE RE-ENTRIES A SAY.......YOU LOSE TOUGH ...........GO FISH TO THE POND I SAY!!!!!
Your against RE-ENTRY then i take it ;D
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To have a re-entry or not...i am against re-entry for the simple reason of that point that Richard said playeres playing wild nowing they have a re-entry....and theN rivering somebody that is playing their game.....Tournament Poker for me should be ....You Pay...You Play your game if you lose you are out simple has that.....so often i see re-entry tournaments-------people playing they game and on asshole or two with the oldest excuse in the Book....HMMMMMMMM I HAVE TO PAY I HAVE 1 OUT....AND I CAN RE-ENTRY WHY NOT LETS PAY FOR MY ONE OUT...AND BINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...................IT CAME................AND YOU THAT MADE ALWAYS THE RIGHT MOVES ARE AT THE CASHIER WASTING YOUR MONEY BECAUSE ONE DONK HAD STILL A RE-ENTRY AND DECIDED TO HAVE A BINGO GO......SO NO TO THE RE-ENTRIES A SAY.......YOU LOSE TOUGH ...........GO FISH TO THE POND I SAY!!!!!
Your against RE-ENTRY then i take it ;D
I think we need some clarification first
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OK, had been meaning to post on this thread for a while now seems a good of a time as any.
Firstly, there is no advantage to somebody who can afford to re-enter. All it means is they can buy in (just like an alternate) and if they play differently and gain an advantage from this then if it is an advantage they should have been doing it anyway (re-entry or not), if it is not an advantage then they are juicing the pot, sometimes you will get eliminated by somebody making a poor play, that"s poker and you want them to do that anyway.
Also the re-entries are not compulsory so you lose nothing if you were not going to rebuy anyway. It"s APAT and there is a bar and apater"s being out is not so bad. In fact being out is sometimes too much fun and it has in the past made a difference to a decision I made, when I was thinking if I go out, do I really care? Most of us don"t have any fear of being out, I will just enter the next one anyway, which is the same as a re-entry I just have to wait until next month (in the grand scheme of things this is exactly what it is). Actually if people are playing with a fear of going out the a re-entry is a good idea for APAT as it would teach people not too, just make the right play, if you run into the top of somebodies range on this occasion or get outdrawn, so be it - the bar is still there. The fact it is a re-entry does not make a decision that would be a fold in a freezeout a call. The EV of the decision would be exactly the same. For it to change there would have to be a huge metagame (which there is not at an APAT event).
Obviously we can"t only have them in certain circumstances, but somebody wanting a re-entry should go to the bottom of the alternate list so they might not get back in. If I did win an APAT after re-entering it would not feel tainted in the slightest to me.
I agree re-entries and rebuy"s are different, would not be in favor of a rebuy event (accept as a side event which would be good).
So overall I am for re-entries and see no reason to limit them.
One case that I do think deserves consideration though. The reason I still play apat tournaments is because I met a lot of apater"s during them and really enjoyed spending the time at them, it"s this that brought me back to apat and doing so has in turn improved my game I think. Re-entries risk the removal of this which I don"t think should be under-estimated.
But at the end of the day, re-entries will reduce the variance and favor better players which I all for.
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.............It"s APAT and there is a bar.........In fact being out is sometimes too much fun......the bar is still there.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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.... The fact it is a re-entry does not make a decision that would be a fold in a freezeout a call. The EV of the decision would be exactly the same. For it to change there would have to be a huge metagame (which there is not at an APAT event).
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I don"t think I"ve ever seen you mention $EV in any of your hand analysis.
And that"s what"s wrong with your analysis here - the chip EV won"t be changed by it being a re-entry.
But if you have a freezeout then going out means your end result is -100% $EV; but in a re-entry it doesn"t - it just reduces it proportionately to the chips you"ve just lost before you buy back in.
That"s why in a re-entry it would be correct, for example, to risk losing 100"s of blinds on a coin flip - whereas in a straight freezeout - it wouldn"t. If you only ever look at chip EV then it"s probably better to stick to cash rather than tournaments.
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$EV, I have mentioned it a few times and said I don"t think I fully understand it, which is also the reason I mainly comment on cash hands although I have recently started entering discussions about tournaments although I don"t think I am close to as good on these. I would certainly only be considering cEV in the early stages and not $EV though. This could be wrong in very specific situation btw.
You can just enter another tournament though, you have still paid £163 to enter twice you have the same number of chips and have paid the same amount for them (I am obviously ignoring expense"s here). Also the reasons most people have given for not wanting re-entries (might get outdrawn etc) are in my opinion reason to have re-entries.
Meh we ain"t going to resolve it here, it needs to be discussed over a beer at DTD ldo.
.............It"s APAT and there is a bar.........In fact being out is sometimes too much fun......the bar is still there.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes Ger, this has been confirmed as being in a large part your doing :-)
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I fully understand that re entry is becoming the thing these days but APAT can remain unique here by not playing along for the following reasons:
1. It"s the title we all want first and foremost
2. It"s not similar to the professional circuit where the prize pool is the incentive
3. Makes for a better game as it"s win or lose - lose your chips and your out
Again these are my thoughts and although we will need to change with times, as longs as numbers grow (and I"m sure they will) there is no need to allow re entry.
Hope these comments don"t upset anyone.