Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: AAroddersAA on September 02, 2012, 16:07:04 PM
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Playing Zoom so almost no info on my opponent in the hand. Only 1 hand in my HUD and he folded it.
2012/09/02 4:07:49 WET [2012/09/01 23:07:49 ET]
Table "Hydra" 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Helraiser87 ($23.22 in chips)
Seat 2: 33teetwo33 ($41.24 in chips)
Seat 3: MARCOS-URUG ($39.05 in chips)
Seat 4: ehs21 ($18.17 in chips)
Seat 5: Suhoff76 ($42.17 in chips)
Seat 6: El Deucey ($35.55 in chips)
33teetwo33: posts small blind $0.10
MARCOS-URUG: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33 [Ad Js]
ehs21: folds
Suhoff76: raises $0.37 to $0.62
El Deucey: folds
Helraiser87: folds
33teetwo33: raises $1.63 to $2.25
MARCOS-URUG: folds
Suhoff76: calls $1.63
*** FLOP *** [4c Jc 7h]
33teetwo33: bets $4
Suhoff76: raises $7 to $11
33teetwo33: calls $7
*** TURN *** [4c Jc 7h] [5d]
33teetwo33: checks
Suhoff76: bets $28.92 and is all-in
33teetwo33: folds
Should I just flat preflop? I have to bet the flop, is the size wrong? Should I fold to the raise?
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Dont mind 3 bet preflop in normal cash games but in zoom theres no balancing or metagame at all so i tend to just flat oop in situations like this (i dont know if that makes much sense, but i find theres no real value in 3 betting margional hands oop thats all) most of the time u win a tiny pot pre flop or loose a much bigger post flop.
I would fold turn here because people dont usually stack off light in my experience, and id say u are beat most of the time here.
fwiw im a net looser in zoom and rush by quite a lot, i always seem to run into the top of their ranges or get coolered real bad.
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Tough hand readless. As played, his value range for raising flop is really narrow, and Id say his actual range includes a lot of draws and some air, as well as a few combos of worse Jx hands. I"m calling here and making a note.
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Marty u said his 3 bet flop range is narrow "includes draws/ air/ combos and Jx". But shouldnt that mean his range is really wide?
And when he shoves turn, i think we can take air out of his range unless we have specific reason otherwise (which we have no reads so have to assume hes not insane)
So when he shoves turn, his range is Club draws/ maybe with overs/ combo draws 97cc etc. made hands like sets/ over pairs QQ+ and Jx. Vs this range looks like u have 61% if ive done it correctly. looks like a crying call.
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Marty u said his 3 bet flop range is narrow "includes draws/ air/ combos and Jx". But shouldnt that mean his range is really wide?
And when he shoves turn, i think we can take air out of his range unless we have specific reason otherwise (which we have no reads so have to assume hes not insane)
So when he shoves turn, his range is Club draws/ maybe with overs/ combo draws 97cc etc. made hands like sets/ over pairs QQ+ and Jx.
I said the value part of his range is really narrow :)
As for your range for his turn shove, that still makes it a call w/ AJ. There aren"t many combo"s of sets, and we have to discount some combos of overpairs when he flats the 3b pre this deep.
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yeh sorry missed the key word lol. Guess after thinking about it for a while and looking at the numbers i change my mind to a call.
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Yeah played fine but I probably call turn jam
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What do we think he can have that we beat on the turn? I pretty much insta folded.
Should I fold pre? I pretty much think I should never flat this hand OOP (barring some really weird dynamic). My thinking is once he has raised/called from EP the board lands dry. I c-bet (probably too big, it should be $3) and he makes a strong raise. He could be doing this with air but that does does not seem likely in this spot. It is so rare at this level even in the modern day game. The only thing he MIGHT be doing this with on that flop that I can beat is KJ or QJ type hands. Those hands should really be calling on this flop, not raising. He can definitely have a set here as well. I then called and checked the turn hoping he would check or bet small with a worse Jack. He shoves, I really don"t think he shoves a Jack. I think he has air or a set. At this level it is usually a set because you will get called a lot of the time by an overpair?
I really think calling the turn is setting fire to money (could be wrong). I am really thinking fold pre might be the best play as there is a raise from EP and I don"t like calling with this hand and hands like AQ and AK will often flat me from that position so I am playing out of position with big reverse implied odds. Make any sense at all?
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The last paragraph that u said is the reason why i wouldnt 3 bet on zoom with AJ oop, because u are not gonna get folds vs AK and AQ.
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What do we think he can have that we beat on the turn? I pretty much insta folded.
Should I fold pre? I pretty much think I should never flat this hand OOP (barring some really weird dynamic). My thinking is once he has raised/called from EP the board lands dry. I c-bet (probably too big, it should be $3) and he makes a strong raise. He could be doing this with air but that does does not seem likely in this spot. It is so rare at this level even in the modern day game. The only thing he MIGHT be doing this with on that flop that I can beat is KJ or QJ type hands. Those hands should really be calling on this flop, not raising. He can definitely have a set here as well. I then called and checked the turn hoping he would check or bet small with a worse Jack. He shoves, I really don"t think he shoves a Jack. I think he has air or a set. At this level it is usually a set because you will get called a lot of the time by an overpair?
I really think calling the turn is setting fire to money (could be wrong). I am really thinking fold pre might be the best play as there is a raise from EP and I don"t like calling with this hand and hands like AQ and AK will often flat me from that position so I am playing out of position
with big reverse implied odds. Make any sense at all?
Def shud b 3b or fold pre, but I disagree he is polarised to sets or air. What do u thnk villain does w/ nfd or combo draws Ott?
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What do we think he can have that we beat on the turn? I pretty much insta folded.
Should I fold pre? I pretty much think I should never flat this hand OOP (barring some really weird dynamic). My thinking is once he has raised/called from EP the board lands dry. I c-bet (probably too big, it should be $3) and he makes a strong raise. He could be doing this with air but that does does not seem likely in this spot. It is so rare at this level even in the modern day game. The only thing he MIGHT be doing this with on that flop that I can beat is KJ or QJ type hands. Those hands should really be calling on this flop, not raising. He can definitely have a set here as well. I then called and checked the turn hoping he would check or bet small with a worse Jack. He shoves, I really don"t think he shoves a Jack. I think he has air or a set. At this level it is usually a set because you will get called a lot of the time by an overpair?
I really think calling the turn is setting fire to money (could be wrong). I am really thinking fold pre might be the best play as there is a raise from EP and I don"t like calling with this hand and hands like AQ and AK will often flat me from that position so I am playing out of position
with big reverse implied odds. Make any sense at all?
Def shud b 3b or fold pre, but I disagree he is polarised to sets or air. What do u thnk villain does w/ nfd or combo draws Ott?
Oh yeah, just reread the hand history, there was actually two clubs on the flop. I honestly never noticed that (even when playing the hand *lol*) I thought it was rainbow for some bizarre reason - madness ???. That actually changes things a lot. Probably should have called then.
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Board: 4c Jc 7h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 74.434% 74.43% 00.00% 14738 0.00 { QQ-JJ, 77, 44, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 6c5c }
Hand 1: 25.566% 25.57% 00.00% 5062 0.00 { AdJs }
Board: 4c Jc 7h 5d [you are getting slightly less than 2/1 to call the turn shove]
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 71.591% 71.59% 00.00% 630 0.00 { QQ-JJ, 77, 44, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 6c5c }
Hand 1: 28.409% 28.41% 00.00% 250 0.00 { AdJs }
hopefully the above might get some to re-think, even if you add a % of air for villain then you have to also allow for villain flatting a 3bet in position with AA KK AKcc a certain % of the time also..
its a 3bet pot approx 165bb eff no reads, no history between the players, play against his whole range NOT what you hope he has, re-read G-Bucks would be a good starting point if you haven"t already..
in 3bet pot no reads what would villain be putting you on? agreed your line screams weak after you flat his re-raise and check the turn BUT when the situation you are in is flipping/way behind at best then bloody well FOLD the flop remember mostly the perceived 3bet strength of your hand is ahead of villains 3bet flat range on this board, if you fold every spot like this then at best you only end up losing a little bit of money, NOT winning the occasional and losing mostly, quite simply in grey spots like this you will be wrong far more than right..
rather than only just looking at the post flop decisions, consider the pre flop situation, 3betting oop AJo to a utg1/mp raiser in 6max, re-think your 3bet ranges, how much for value and what type of hands readless would be better to add to the weaker part...
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as a general principle, bet until you are raised, then fold.
He has it, whichever "it" is, he has it
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a broader way of looking at it -
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBq7t-xQnas[/youtube]
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He can have worse Jx hands as well and its vs an unknown. Way more combos of Jx hands than sets. Think ur range is short of a few f/d"s as well :)
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He can have worse Jx hands as well and its vs an unknown. Way more combos of Jx hands than sets.
so all of a sudden all the unknowns readless in ep/mp 6max nlh flat ip all jack x hands 100% of the time? 2 combos of jacks, say they call suited - Jh T Q K , Jd T Q K - thats 6 combo"s and u assume he 100% re-raises all of these in 3bet pots on the flop? then you assume that he 100% jams all those 6 combo"s on the turn but never checks back the turn ever?
please do some maths marty to prove your point - 7 sets play this line a high % likewise flush draws a lower amount in % terms, so how many club draws do the general population of 25nl have in there mp range that flat the 3bet, and how often do you see them take this line this deep? AKcc AQcc 9Tcc 89cc thats 4 combo"s, do we think is flat 3bet range will have even more clubs that will take this line?
for this to be break even to marginal i"d guess villain would have to be in the ballpark of 30 to 40% air and worse jacks of his total range to be even slightly +ev taking into account that sometimes he might flat the 3bet ip with AA KK AKcc a certain % of the time and still take this line with no reads...
100% ranges - so villain calls 100% every hand possible?
Board: 4c Jc 7h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.890% 51.66% 00.23% 31706 144.00 { AdJs }
Hand 1: 48.110% 47.88% 00.23% 29386 144.00 { QQ+, JdJh, 77, 44, AcKc, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KdJd, KhJh, QdJd, QhJh, JdTd, JhTh, Tc9c, 9c8c, 8c7c, 7c6c, 6c5c, 3c2c, KJo, QJo, JTo }
a tad bit more muck added
Board: 4c Jc 7h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.053% 52.25% 03.80% 41902 3046.50 { AdJs }
Hand 1: 43.947% 40.15% 03.80% 32195 3046.50 { QQ+, JdJh, 77, 44, AcKc, AcQc, AJs, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcQc, KdJd, KhJh, QdJd, QhJh, JdTd, JhTh, Tc9c, T3s, 9c8c, 92s, 8c7c, 7c6c, 6c5c, 63s, 3c2c, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo }
will the opponent 100% flat the 3bet with all of these hands and 100% play all of these fast on the flop and turn?
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He can have worse Jx hands as well and its vs an unknown. Way more combos of Jx hands than sets.
so all of a sudden all the unknowns readless in ep/mp 6max nlh flat ip all jack x hands 100% of the time? 2 combos of jacks, say they call suited - Jh T Q K , Jd T Q K - thats 6 combo"s and u assume he 100% re-raises all of these in 3bet pots on the flop? then you assume that he 100% jams all those 6 combo"s on the turn but never checks back the turn ever?
please do some maths marty to prove your point - 7 sets play this line a high % likewise flush draws a lower amount in % terms, so how many club draws do the general population of 25nl have in there mp range that flat the 3bet, and how often do you see them take this line this deep? AKcc AQcc 9Tcc 89cc thats 4 combo"s, do we think is flat 3bet range will have even more clubs that will take this line?
for this to be break even to marginal i"d guess villain would have to be in the ballpark of 30 to 40% air and worse jacks of his total range to be even slightly +ev taking into account that sometimes he might flat the 3bet ip with AA KK AKcc a certain % of the time and still take this line with no reads...
Are you assuming that population tendancies at 6m 25nl dnt suggest ppl r going to raise call QJo, KJo? And yes, I think worse Jx hands can take this line at this level. I actually think fd"s and combo draws are more likely to take these sizings than sets, but again, very hard to tell without more info.
I def think there are more club combos that flat pre and take this line as well. Hands like 6c7c or 7c8c actually make heaps of sense. I don"t know why we would need to re-read G-Bucks when the whole argument for call is based around our hands equity vs the range we have mentioned from the start of the thread :P This isnt a range auto-weighted to make it a call, instead a range based on pop tendancies. It could be argued that leaving out all the Jx hands is ur way of weighting the range towards a fold ;)
Remember noble,
play against his whole range NOT what you hope he has, re-read G-Bucks would be a good starting point if you haven"t already..
PS...I"ve missed this.
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pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?
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Are you assuming that population tendancies at 6m 25nl dnt suggest ppl r going to raise call QJo, KJo?
so u think he calls the 3bet 100% of the time with QJo KJo, and that every situation with no reads every type of player that u might come up against in this exact same situation will take this line 100% on the flop with a QJo type hand 165bb deep and again 100% of the time jam the turn but never a certain % give up on the bluff or check the turn to see a free card with his flush draws a certain % ??
i still want to see your maths btw :)
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Are you assuming that population tendancies at 6m 25nl dnt suggest ppl r going to raise call QJo, KJo?
so u think he calls the 3bet 100% of the time with QJo KJo, and that every situation with no reads every type of player that u might come up against in this exact same situation will take this line 100% on the flop with a QJo type hand 165bb deep and again 100% of the time jam the turn but never a certain % give up on the bluff or check the turn to see a free card with his flush draws a certain % ??
i still want to see your maths btw :)
I cnt tell if he flats the 3b 100% of the time :) Its vs an unknown. I do think the majority of unknowns at these levels will peel pre with these hands tho, esp this deep. Again, couldnt say if he takes this line 100% otf w/ QJ, but then again, I dnt know that he takes tht flop/turn line with a set. Its against an unknown, which is y I want to call, and make a note.
board: 4cJc7h
Hand 1; AdJs 52.01%
Hand 2; QQ-JJ, 77, 44, AcQc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 6c5c, 7c6c, 7c8c, KJ, QJ 47.99%
Even if we take all his QJ hands out, we are still getting the right price. Don"t get me wrong, Im not in love with stacking off, but I think gng with pop tendancies, it"s going to be profitable in the long term.
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pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?
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why no maths marty? :)
look if you think this is ok to stack off with then heyho you keep on doing it, i think you are wrong that so many 25nl players will call quite so many jack x hands pre and then re-raise a strong cbet in a 3bet pot and jam the turn..
overall RIO comes to mind with AJo oop in 3bet pots [no reads another negative] personally i like polarity for spots like this the usual AA KK AK QQ and mix in some suited connectors and low pairs that can either flop big or not at all.. at least if we 3 bet with 44 from the SB and the flop came A K T, at least we know that if our opponent calls, in the main he has us beat. on the flip side, we might get him to fold better hands such as 88 or JJ.. get our opponents to pay us off with worse hands or fold better ones, put them in a hell of a lot more RIO spots than ourselves..
it all really comes down to knowing your opponent and whether he will perceive your bet as strength or weakness, that is the best skill to learn, once you can figure that out you can manipulate them whatever way you want for max profit, u can get reads eventually in zoom versus the regs at whatever stake, but if u wanna lose money either quickly or slowly drip feed donate because u ignore a leak in your game then ZOOM away, close your eyes pray u will have the better hand mostly and pay them donks off ;)
pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?
if u re-read through thread you"ll spot what i think is best..
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why no maths marty? :)
look if you think this is ok to stack off with then heyho you keep on doing it, i think you are wrong that so many 25nl players will call quite so many jack x hands pre and then re-raise a strong cbet in a 3bet pot and jam the turn..
overall RIO comes to mind with AJo oop in 3bet pots [no reads another negative] personally i like polarity for spots like this the usual AA KK AK QQ and mix in some suited connectors and low pairs that can either flop big or not at all.. at least if we 3 bet with 44 from the SB and the flop came A K T, at least we know that if our opponent calls, in the main he has us beat. on the flip side, we might get him to fold better hands such as 88 or JJ.. get our opponents to pay us off with worse hands or fold better ones, put them in a hell of a lot more RIO spots than ourselves..
it all really comes down to knowing your opponent and whether he will perceive your bet as strength or weakness, that is the best skill to learn, once you can figure that out you can manipulate them whatever way you want for max profit, u can get reads eventually in zoom versus the regs at whatever stake, but if u wanna lose money either quickly or slowly drip feed donate because u ignore a leak in your game then ZOOM away, close your eyes pray u will have the better hand mostly and pay them donks off ;)
pps...are u advocating fold flop or fold turn?
if u re-read through thread you"ll spot what i think is best..
Not sure what maths you wud like. Ive shown my range breakdown, and that I believe we have 52% equity against his range, and that would therefore make it a profitable call. Havent even added any JT combos into that range as I was feeling generous :)
I also very much agree with you that it all comes down to knowing your opponent and how he will percieve your bet. Again though....this is vs an unknown and we dont have that luxury. Obviously there are a lot of opponents whr we can snap fold flop, and there are others we can fist pump get it in against. Against an unknown, I think we shrug our shoulders, call, and make a note to aid our decision making process the next time.
Pretty sure we are never going to agree, and I wnt be stubborn enough to give the "Im def right, and ur def wrong post" (...see above). Would be interesting to hear other views or cross post on another forum for other views.
Also...I reread thread and still not 100% if you want hero to fold flop or turn? If you could clarify it for the OP, Im sure it would be helpful :)