Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: PHIL_TC on November 13, 2012, 22:59:18 PM
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OK.. never posted a hand before so flame away :) Has been bugging me a little this one.
The scene.. its Portugal. I"m fairly hungover. Only on second beer of the day taking it steady away.
Started with 10k, down to around 8.5k. Few levels in and its 150/300.
Fairly standard table to date, no one getting out of line however seems the Portugese seem to love a call.
I"m in the big blind and do my usual at glancing at one card which is a red queen. Then watch what occurs at the table.
UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, Cutoff raises to 1500 playing around 11-12k. Fold to me. Peak at the second card which is another queen.
What do we do?
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Shove his sorry ar$e and hit the Irish bar at the marina - job done..... ;D
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Raise to 3325 because you are pro
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Use the C word.
I raise him to 4k, with the intention of getting the rest in no matter what.
Infact.... is a shove pre in this spot terrible?
Definately use the C word tho.
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Unlucky.
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As it is you, double check you"ve not looked at the same queen first.... ;D
Then re-raise like a trooper to kill it there
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With two limpers and a 5x raise in front...... including the blinds, I make that 8.5bb in the middle, and you have around 27bbs behind - shove and take it down = 32% stack increase. Get called and win = lovely. Get called and lose = cooler, and more time at the bar.
Worst case scenario is raise small, get called, and then play an Ace high flop out of position with nearly half your stack in the middle already.
For me it"s either a shove, a shove, or sometimes it might also be a shove.
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With two limpers and a 5x raise in front...... including the blinds, I make that 8.5bb in the middle, and you have around 27bbs behind - shove and take it down = 32% stack increase. Get called and win = lovely. Get called and lose = cooler, and more time at the bar.
Worst case scenario is raise small, get called, and then play an Ace high flop out of position with nearly half your stack in the middle already.
For me it"s either a shove, a shove, or sometimes it might also be a shove.
agreed with that stack size, those cards and that action I don"t see how you could do anything other than shove
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It"s an easy dwell, supported by a throaty "soon".
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As you claim to be at a "standard" table I will assume you mean standard for that event*
So the protocol would be to tell some guy opposite you what you have and ask for his advice, in Portugese of course!
* given that you also claim to be only "fairly hungover" this would suggest I should assume nothing.
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As you claim to be at a "standard" table I will assume you mean standard for that event*
So the protocol would be to tell some guy opposite you what you have and ask for his advice, in Portugese of course!
* given that you also claim to be only "fairly hungover" this would suggest I should assume nothing.
It was hardly a "standard" table, I was on it ;D ;D
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Pretty standard shove here. A 3 bet would put in 40-50% of your stack so get it in now. A shove here is not terrible. Clicking it back and seeing 2 callers with a flop of Axx would be terrible.
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Shove his sorry ar$e and hit the Irish bar at the marina - job done..... ;D
see I know these things
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Fist pump about 3 times, high five the dealer and bet all of your discs.
Phil, this is a REALLY easy shove mate and it ain"t even close.
Money in the pot means we are adding more than 30% to our stack and we crush the range of the raiser. I don"t really like the size of the raise and would be happier if it was smaller but whatever, if he has AA or KK so be it you just can"t fold here and therefore have to shove.
Limper"s could turn up with AA I know but are more likely to decide to hero call with 88-TT imo.
What do you think the raiser calls you with? If it is just JJ+ and AK you are about 50/50 to win when called and have a LOAD of fold equity. For shoving to be wrong you would almost have to know one of them has AA or KK.
You probably get about 50/50 folds in this spot and when the limpers call their range is smaller pairs a lot more than it is AA or KK, AK and AQ may even make an appearance. The raiser calls with worse as well. probably the same sort of range as above.
Pretty standard shove here. A 3 bet would put in 40-50% of your stack so get it in now. A shove here is not terrible. Clicking it back and seeing 2 callers with a flop of Axx would be terrible.
Clicking it back and seeing any flop (even Q-9-4 rainbow) is terrible.
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Have we shoved yet?
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Definately a flat....................SHOVE.......or are you allowed to check to a raise? Anyway, hope the Guinness was good in Portugal. :)
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Have we shoved yet?
Speed of shove depends on how quickly our celebratory drink can be ordered and delivered.
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Clicking it back and seeing any flop (even Q-9-4 rainbow) is terrible.
Devils advocate - I don"t think clicking it back is terrible at all. If we think crazy villains will be randomly peeling 25% of their stacks with small pairs, or Ax type hands then I am happy making it 3400 or something similar. We could be missing value by shoving? Never folding and the shove is the obvious move of course.
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Depends on the player but clicking it back can seem super strong? Hopefully get called lighter with the shove cos we have AK obv and their 4"s are ahead ... ;)
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I"m off with work again for a few days upto sunny Scotland... but heres the next part for deliberation.. I decided to play
tricky like a plonker and attempt to extract the maximum by flatting, with the idea shoving the flop.. one of the limpers comes along as well. So we have 3 to the flop... which is
10 3 3 rainbow...
We"re first to act. What next?
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That"s a great flop for that plan - although the error in the plan is that A high hands fold, and lower pairs fold if the flop comes out with any T J Q K or A. So usually you"re going to miss out on chips when they just fold on the flop. Rather than extracting the maximum they get to keep chips which they would have given to you if they"d called your all in pre.
I"m guessing it was something sillier on this occasion like one of them had A3?
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slow roll bad beat or what... come on Phil
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slow roll bad beat or what... come on Phil
It provided endless hours of merriment over the weekend ;D
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3 betting but NOT shoving is not good imo, as someone has said before it looks super strong, which it is super strong of course. And we are supposed to disguise our hand strength.
I just cant see the point at all in not getting this all in with you stack. I would also do this (shove all in) sometimes as a bluff and fold equity with hands like 97s for example (only sometimes table and villian dependant of course), so QQs balances my shoving range perfectly.
Well whats next? Perfect flop for you. As played i am check/shoving this.
10x will bet and then call you for sure, because you almost never show up with overpairs in this spot. The guy who raised will most likely bet if checked round, then he will call your shove.
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Easy fold.
He"s bet 5 times the big blind therefore he has aces or kings. Once you"ve made the mistake of calling it"s an even easier fold after the flop. You"re now up against a full house from the guy with the aces and the limper has pocket threes and has quads.
You never heard the phrase "tight is right"?
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Fairly standard table to date, no one getting out of line however seems the Portugese seem to love a call.
I make it level 5 ? so roughly 2hrs 15mins played. Trying not to be too harsh Phil but you really should have better reads than this on the individual players at your table.
With two limpers and a 5x raise in front...... including the blinds, I make that 8.5bb in the middle, and you have around 27bbs behind - shove and take it down = 32% stack increase. Get called and win = lovely. Get called and lose = cooler, and more time at the bar.
Worst case scenario is raise small, get called, and then play an Ace high flop out of position with nearly half your stack in the middle already.
For me it"s either a shove, a shove, or sometimes it might also be a shove.
+1 to all of this, especially since.....
Portugese seem to love a call
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I"m off with work again for a few days upto sunny Scotland... but heres the next part for deliberation.. I decided to play tricky like a plonker and attempt to extract the maximum by flatting, with the idea shoving the flop.. one of the limpers comes along as well. So we have 3 to the flop... which is
10 3 3 rainbow...
We"re first to act. What next?
I like Stu"s idea use the C word then act.................... irresponsibly :-*
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I like Mark Porter"s thinking, as we definitely want max value.
However, I would shove for two reasons:
1) The 30% increase to your stack for picking up the pot now is too good to pass up
2) We can still get called by hands we crush, depending on your perceived image and what we know about the raiser. If we are only ever picking up the pot now or getting called by AK/KK/AA it is still the right move to shove, as a profitable move.
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Clicking it back and seeing any flop (even Q-9-4 rainbow) is terrible.
Devils advocate - I don"t think clicking it back is terrible at all. If we think crazy villains will be randomly peeling 25% of their stacks with small pairs, or Ax type hands then I am happy making it 3400 or something similar. We could be missing value by shoving? Never folding and the shove is the obvious move of course.
OK, I would argue, a small raise is not OK and indeed terrible due to how easy this spot actually is. It is the nut worst play (well apart from folding). If people are calling min raises light they are almost certainly calling shoves at least as light, especially as this is live.
Hands with one over card such as AJ or AQ we don"t much care if they call or fold when we shove (we like a call more). Let"s assume the limpers are going to fold as they almost always will in this spot. Some will have AA sometimes but that will be rare and there is nothing you can do about it.
If we shove and they all fold we will 8.5BB - great
If we shove and get called by an AQ/KQ type hand then we win on average about 20BB also good. We also get knocked out 30% of the time.
If we click it back thing get all complicated and we really didn"t need to make it so complex.
When we raise it another 7BB say loads of hands that would call a shove probably call here:-
99+
AQ, AJ, KQ.
Maybe 66 - 88
Maybe KJ / KT
Then we see of flop of say T-3-3 and the hand we beat fold but would have called the preflop shove
If we see a flop of A-4-9 we still can"t really get away from our hand with what is in the middle, we may pick off a few bluffs but will usually end up losing to the hands that beat us and sometimes lose our stack. We have created a horrible complex situation which is -EV
There are a few hands that will call a min raise that will not call a shove little pairs set mining incorrectly for example and TJ suited type hands who have heard of implied odds, but not enough to make up for the value we lose against hands that would have called a shove.
Phil,
As played CRAI - this hand is really simple. The flat is sort of OK btw (much better than a min raise) although a shove is still much better. What was you plan on a flop of:-
A-9-4 or
K-7-2
PS - for fun equity please tell me he had a two and a three that would be too good *lol*
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If people are calling min raises light they are almost certainly calling shoves at least as light, especially as this is live.
This is the bit I am not sure I agree with.
From my limited live experience, these types of players will merrily peel off 25% of their stack but when asked to call for their tournament lives - will tighten up significantly. If that is the case then I dont want to give hands that we crush a reason to fold.
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If people are calling min raises light they are almost certainly calling shoves at least as light, especially as this is live.
This is the bit I am not sure I agree with.
From my limited live experience, these types of players will merrily peel off 25% of their stack but when asked to call for their tournament lives - will tighten up significantly. If that is the case then I dont want to give hands that we crush a reason to fold.
While I think that"s true, I think a lot of them will call an all in with their pocket pairs -and we definitely lose value from them on most flops. Given that a lot of the other combinations are going to fold anyway when they don"t hit the flop I can"t see anyway that you don"t lose value by not shoving pre.
And it"s a no lose situation because with these stack sizes the extra you gain from just winning blinds and ante"s makes it worthwhile by itself.
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I make it level 5 ? so roughly 2hrs 15mins played. Trying not to be too harsh Phil but you really should have better reads than this on the individual players at your table.
You"re right Brendan. I deduced they were all Portuguese. Apart from Curly ;) x
Phil,
As played CRAI - this hand is really simple. The flat is sort of OK btw (much better than a min raise) although a shove is still much better. What was you plan on a flop of:-
A-9-4 or
K-7-2
PS - for fun equity please tell me he had a two and a three that would be too good *lol*
*lol* 2/3 would have been comic genius.. although it was bad enough the first time :)
As played... I LOVED the flop, checked, and waited for a bet to shove over... that never came... check... check.. bad times... wishing I"d just shoved it first :-\
Turn comes 9. Still happy.
Board now 9 10 3 3
First to act.. checked again as saw initial raiser glance down at chips. Check from limper, bet of small amount of 1.5k by initial raiser.
Back to us....
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Jam now.
Prefer just open shoving rather than checking again on the turn.