Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: AAroddersAA on February 17, 2013, 16:50:00 PM
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Hi All
Help me with this please. Hand I am trying to work out you should do. The game is a $4.50 180 man on Pokerstars, the problem is we have no real info on out opponent which is why it is not easy to properly say what is right or wrong we are basically in a vacuum.
Table is nine handed
Blinds: 25/50
15 Minute Levels
Our Chip Stack: 6570
Opponents Stack: 2635
We are on the button.
Opponent is in MP
We are dealt: 8h 9h
It folds to our opponent in this hand who makes it 150 to go
It then folds to us
With very little info to go on I am going to fold here. Does anybody agree or disagree and can you explain why please. Am I missing a spot here. I will post my thinking later when I have written it up as well.
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Hi All
Help me with this please. Hand I am trying to work out you should do. The game is a $4.50 180 man on Pokerstars, the problem is we have no real info on out opponent which is why it is not easy to properly say what is right or wrong we are basically in a vacuum.
Table is nine handed
Blinds: 25/50
15 Minute Levels
Our Chip Stack: 6570
Opponents Stack: 2635
We are on the button.
Opponent is in MP
We are dealt: 8h 9h
It folds to our opponent in this hand who makes it 150 to go
It then folds to us
With very little info to go on I am going to fold here. Does anybody agree or disagree and can you explain why please. Am I missing a spot here. I will post my thinking later when I have written it up as well.
If you raise, how often does he re raise pre?
Is it not worth re popping it to about 400. I reckon he flats and then you take control, in position, as the aggressor, you are free to fire away at most boards?
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With a hand that plays the flop so well, is it not worth flatting in position, keeping the pot small enough to make bluffs affordable post flop?
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With a hand that plays the flop so well, is it not worth flatting in position, keeping the pot small enough to make bluffs affordable post flop?
Not 100% sure tbh, are we deep enough for that? It feels like a fold to me but I can"t justify why calling is bad.
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think flatting gives you more options, seems kinda fancy play syndrome to start reraise barreling this early? Flatting in position we can fold cheaply on disgusting flops, we can float the flop bet the turn some of the time and god forbid we could actually flop big. Feels like a waste to fold a hand like this on the button 50 bb"s" deep?
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You need implied odds of about 20/1 to make flatting SCs a profitable play, so this just makes a fold for me.
If the player/situation is right then 3 bet bluffing is a reasonable play too.
Flatting to outplay is a bit too risky and could end up costing too many chips.
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With a hand that plays the flop so well, is it not worth flatting in position, keeping the pot small enough to make bluffs affordable post flop?
Not 100% sure tbh, are we deep enough for that? It feels like a fold to me but I can"t justify why calling is bad.
Based simply on our hand value, we are not deep enough to flat here, as a comparison, could we setmine?
You have this about face Steve, We need to justify why calling is good and to do that we depend on reads.
Its probably very marginal either way with little between fold, call or 3b. Villains exact position ie. mp1, mp2 or mp3 is important, I"d expect a wide range gap between mp1 and mp3 and expect a 3b to find considerably more folds versus your average default mp3 opening range. All that said, its probably best to wait till antes are in play when 3b bluffs become more profitable.
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In general, I can"t see me doing anything other than peeling this OTB.
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3 betting is really bad imo, because he has a 4 bet shoving stack. The first thing i would do is look to see what stacks the blinds have. If they have 10-15 bbs and are deecant players then i would fold if there is a chance they can shove. Most of the time im gonna just peel in your spot.
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With a hand that plays the flop so well, is it not worth flatting in position, keeping the pot small enough to make bluffs affordable post flop?
Not 100% sure tbh, are we deep enough for that? It feels like a fold to me but I can"t justify why calling is bad.
Based simply on our hand value, we are not deep enough to flat here, as a comparison, could we setmine?
You have this about face Steve, We need to justify why calling is good and to do that we depend on reads.
Its probably very marginal either way with little between fold, call or 3b. Villains exact position ie. mp1, mp2 or mp3 is important, I"d expect a wide range gap between mp1 and mp3 and expect a 3b to find considerably more folds versus your average default mp3 opening range. All that said, its probably best to wait till antes are in play when 3b bluffs become more profitable.
I think we can setmine here yes, 16.5/1 is just about good enough. I don"t think we should call with this hand though. The general consensus is that we should as I expected, I just have no idea why.
Lot"s of people have said flat but I don"t see why they want to do this. The hand plays badly post flop (it plays well if we are much deeper)
If we say that most opponents are raising 6% - 8% of hands at this stage of these things:-
88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+
You will only flop a hand that is ahead of an overpair on the flop about 7% of the time. Even when you do you don"t stack then often enough to make it profitable based on that.
You will flop a flush draw about 11% of the time and a str8 draw about 10% of the time. The problem is we are not deep enough for this to be of any use without reads. We will just lose more than we win against an unknown without reads. We can semi bluff and win smallish pots but when the money ends up going in we are a pretty big underdog.
Can somebody post some thoughts behind calling here? This seems to be a spot where everybody says it is a call, but nobody is sure why :-)
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Errrr.... I never said call.
I completely agree with you that we are not deep enough to play this hand profitably.
The only reason to call other than, "I have a pretty hand and I"m on the button" is if you have a decent read on the villain and can run a good bluff. I think this line generally risks too many chips and would rather make my bluff attempt to be a 3 bet then cbet/give up. But again I would need a decent read before attempting this bluff.
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Errrr.... I never said call.
I know that Rob :-)
Was asking the people who do thing it is a call why they think it is.
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Errrr.... I never said call.
I completely agree with you that we are not deep enough to play this hand profitably.
The only reason to call other than, "I have a pretty hand and I"m on the button" is if you have a decent read on the villain and can run a good bluff. I think this line generally risks too many chips and would rather make my bluff attempt to be a 3 bet then cbet/give up. But again I would need a decent read at least Mrs Bunn the Baker and a blue UNO card before attempting this bluff.
FYP
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Errrr.... I never said call.
I completely agree with you that we are not deep enough to play this hand profitably.
The only reason to call other than, "I have a pretty hand and I"m on the button" is if you have a decent read on the villain and can run a good bluff. I think this line generally risks too many chips and would rather make my bluff attempt to be a 3 bet then cbet/give up. But again I would need a decent read at least Mrs Bunn the Baker and a blue UNO card before attempting this bluff.
FYP
Haha. Quality stu.
But seriously, against the right opponent this is the type of holding you would need. Having a bit of equity would be nice though and SCs give you that.
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50bb deep in a mtt , early levels , risk/reward , chip accumulation is still a goal? [this is not a cash game]
http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=&Number=2671508&page=&view=&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
edit - i better add this - http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=355216&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1
now consider the %"s of hitting - 2pair 2% , trips 1.35% , full house or 4 of a kind 0.1% , flop straight 1.30%
flop flush 0.84% [=5.59% or 16.88/1]
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Personally I would fold this without a thought. The risk/reward ratio is way out of synch to my mind.
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Personally I would fold this without a thought. The risk/reward ratio is way out of synch to my mind.
Explain in more detail please, what is the justification for this :-)
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I quite like the flat here in position. I think this play is less a "its fits the maths type" I"ll play it and more playing for other reasons. I don"t think you should raise here without a plan as you have to fold to a shove (folding to a shove is not a plan).
1.) The price is cheap, and you need to play more hands against "weaker" players earlier on in the tournies to accumulate chips.
2.) I don"t agree that the ranges are necessary as tight as proposed for a standard range. This seems to be a good spot to enable other players to make big mistakes on the flop. You need to accumulate chips.
3.) It widens your range which is good for image reasons and getting paid off later on. You need to accumulate chips.
4.) You"re on the button and it"s pretty.
5.) At this level I think you can play this almost 100% of the time.
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3.) It widens your range which is good for image reasons and getting paid off later on. You need to accumulate chips..
Don"t give too much weight to this because the player pools are so large for the 180 games, players are often mass multitabling and the majority have trouble logging into their Stars account never mind observing what hands you have played!