Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: pokerpops on February 28, 2013, 23:56:11 PM
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Don"t know much about villain - madone2013. I did make a note earlier when he cold 4bet 48o, cBet the 6 10 9 flop, checked the 7 turn when and shoved the river... beating KK obviously
IPoker, $336 Buy-in (400/800 blinds, 100 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
MP1: 101,737 (127.2 bb)
MP2: 42,019 (52.5 bb)
MP3: 73,350 (91.7 bb)
CO: 70,458 (88.1 bb)
BTN: 45,661 (57.1 bb)
SB: 33,508 (41.9 bb)
Hero (BB): 40,382 (50.5 bb)
UTG+2: 31,644 (39.6 bb)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Jd Ad
3 folds, MP3 raises to 1,800, 3 folds, Hero raises to 3,200, MP3 calls 1,400
Flop: (7,600) Jh 8h 4s (2 players)
Hero bets 3,800, MP3 raises to 8,500, Hero calls 4,700
Turn: (24,600) Qs (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets 61,550 and is all-in,
pretty easy fold on turn or so it felt, but what about pre and on the flop?
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Pre looks ok to me, as does flop. turn seems a clear fold to my drunk mind. What is the point in fighting here?
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I suspect villain is Ben Vinson so I would probably pick a better villain. I don"t mind calling pre with a sooted AJ but 3bet is ok, however you have to be prepared for villain 4betting pre to which I guess you would fold. Thinking again I definitely flat pre out of position, you are gonna get peeled really wide with this sizing and it"s hard not to get owned even though you have the lead.
Turn is a bit meh, does he really do this with strong hands, meh I dunno? Could he have 9T pre? I really just can"t pick a bunch of hands that beat us that he over bets turn with but you may be best taking your medicine and folding here
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Dont like the 3 bet with AJ, would rather just peel. As played i think flop is ok, turn just fold.
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It is Ben. I"d just get it on flop. Rest looks fine. FYL now
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Played fine and would agree with the fold, like dean said he is never folding to a small 3 bet so personally I would flat,AJ oop is a pain, although this could be ahead of his range, prob discount AK, AQ so small pocket pairs and decent broadway cards.
Sometimes the fold button is our friend no shame in using it, if he has outplayed us fair enough, you have plenty left at this stage to find a sweeter spot, no point getting into a war here.
He may show up with KJ and it"s happy days but you are just guessing and have fingers crossed and eyes closed that it"s not QJ or, a random 2 pair or trips which is always a possibility.
We can"t win every hand we play and as self proclaimed king of the nits Fold ftw.
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It is Ben. I"d just get it on flop. Rest looks fine. FYL now
I think, though this is hindsight speaking, that had i known who it was I"d 3bet bigger. Probably.
Having seen the 48 hand I probably should have anyway.
All in on the flop though? As a 3bet jam you mean? TPTK good enough this early?
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Doesnt make sense to me to 3 bet bigger. Because a good player is gonna peel so wide in pos. And if you 3 bet bigger, then what do you do if he 4 bets, do you fold? If so then the a bigger 3 bet has cost you x ammount more
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Doesnt make sense to me to 3 bet bigger. Because a good player is gonna peel so wide in pos. And if you 3 bet bigger, then what do you do if he 4 bets, do you fold? If so then the a bigger 3 bet has cost you x ammount more
Also, the bigger your 3bet, the bigger your post flop bets will be.
What is the reason for 3betting here? do we want him to fold? If so, the 3bet needs to be much bigger - but for reasons stated above, I hate that. Surely we don"t want him to call, and then to have position on us in an inflated pot!? Do we want him to 4bet? after which we probably have to fold.
So, I can"t see a valid reason for 3betting this hand in this spot. Flat call and play it small ball.
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It is Ben. I"d just get it on flop. Rest looks fine. FYL now
Could of had Q2 like EPT final Monte Carlo ;D
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[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AySObpWLFY0&list=WLAB8804C577E4FC48[/youtube]
thought process + perceived ranges ...
MP3 raises to 1,800, 3 folds, Hero raises to 3,200
??
u cbet flop + call rr - what does your range look like when u check the turn, what will your oppo expect u to do - etc etc
has he seen u play any other hands to SD , has he seen u make odd plays on similar textures and x/fold to aggression etc..
not enough info on your part to really say :-X
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Can some people post their thinking please (I will try and do tomorrow mind not switched on and my logic does not work when this happens). Why is it a fold, what range of hands do you think he has and why? What is is range pre given the action and what hands are we eliminating from that range on the flop?
Don"t want to get all uppity :-) but everybody is saying fold and nobody has justified it or explained why, without looking at it in any great depth it is a FML spot and not clear at all is my first impression, I could well be wrong I have only read the thread once but trying to encourage some good discussion.
I will watch Nobles video before going any further though.
I reckon we can make a better thread with more in depth posts as I know everybody who has posted here is good enough to have some great thoughts on these questions. Would like to hear them.
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Too hung over for more detail, I"m sure it"s a fold tho :p
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I will do my best with this one.
We have a raise from MP. Based on the read that you have given when it folds to us in the BB he could have ATC. Is there any reason not for us to think this? Do we have any stats on the player?
I would not mind a flat at this point and I don"t mind the raise. If I do raise I am hoping for a fold though as there are not many flops I like in a 3-bet pot really. I guess I am going to have to fold if he 4-bets me unless there is some reason I am not aware of why you would not have done this against this player. The stack sizes are kind of awkward and I don"t hate a fold pre to be honest if I think he is a good player I might well fold pre as he can put me in all sorts of horrid spots post with this hand and these stacks.
As played if we think he is going to call wide might as well 3 bet smallish. I would actually make it 1500 more so my raise would be to 3300, not really an issue either way is it. I am not very happy when he calls.
I am still not too sure what he has. He should not have total trash I think? Although it is hard to say without a better read tbh.
He has not got a big pair that often so lets take AA, KK and QQ out. AK does not sound that likely either as surely in this spot it is better to just get it in pre with a hand like AK or QQ, especially if he knows his reputation. I suppose AA or KK could be trapping but they are less likely. Maybe a combo each of AA and KK and say 4 combos of AK?
I think he range is going to contain some small pairs 22-TT say, SC should fold pre really to the 3-bet but he might call and plan to outplay you if he has a good read. AQ and Axs are also possible imo.
So I think his range might be
AQ, AJ, Axs, Lot"s of SC.
When the flop comes down the pot is 6800 correct?
You have hit TPTK and there are a few draws on the board. Flush draws, 9T and probably a few combo draws. Maybe hands like KJ and QJ as well. I am still finding it hard to put him on a range.
You bet 3800 and he raises quite strong to 8500 (pot is now 19100 right? You have about 33K left). He now should have value hands, semi bluffs and total bluffs.
Value hands may include some worse Jacks. I think he has some of those in his range at this point KJ and QJ are possible as he may have peeled IP with such hands. Heart draws are not impossible and combo draws pair and FD and maybe gutshot and flush draw type hands. Wou;ld he raise a Jack here?
If I give him a very rough estimated range of
JJ, 88, 44, AhQh, AJs, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah4h, KJs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 7h6h, 5h4h, AJo, KJo ,QJo, T9o
Then we should shove we are 60% against this range and have very attractive pot odds (if he folds then we win more than if he calls long term). The question is how close my range for this player is to correct. So imo the flop is a shove. Quite hard a hard one to work out though to be fair, it looked like a flat to me until I looked at it. If we don"t think he raises a bare Jack (hands like KJ or QJ) then we are basically 50/50 but should still be shoving due to us having fold equity.
On the turn against that range we are 30% as the queen is a really bad card for us so it probably is a fold. It just depends how much air is in his range and our reads, however I do"t want to get in a guessing game here tbh. Given that he shoved with a good hand before I would tend to believe him and would indeed fold.
Conclusion
Preflop - dunno, fold might be best
Flop - 3-bet shove Shove
Turn - Fold
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Cold light of day thoughts...
What does he think i have?
He"s seen me raise and fold to a 3bet a couple of times at least. The 48 hand I opened, there was a 3bet and villain cold 4bets.
I"ve opened AK and folded to a donk bet plus a call, I"ve also 3bet JJ and got it in on the turn on xxJK
He knows as much about me as I know about him I guess.
In this hand...
I 3bet oop and led the flop both of which look strong
He calls pre and raises the flop which could, as Rodders says, be strength, bluff or semi-bluff.
I flat his raise on the flop, after some thought and then I check the turn, which looks...?
I understand the idea of getting it in on the flop, but in truth it feels like there"s more two pair, sets or combo draws in his range than enough.
I"m wondering if a fold there might not be sensible.
Anybody think checking the flop is ever a good idea for pot control?
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After you have 3 bet, i would never ever check this flop tbh unless going for a check raise. So pot control is out of the question now (imo of course). And as played if you check he is only going to bet with a polarised range (because he may be suspecting a check raise), so you dont really gain any info at all based on whatever he decides to do. For example he may take a free card with a draw, or showdown value he would want to keep the pot smallish. But if he has big hand he would build the pot, and if he has nothing hes gonna use position advantadge to try and win.
Ive been thinking about this hand and AJ in general recently. Its kind of a sick spot being oop to a tough player. I would much rather 3 bet a fish with AJ. A good player is not going to really peel with a range that you are crushing here. For example he might fold Ace x, but peel with 78s and small pairs, he may 4 bet with a polarised range of very strong or really weak hands. And AJs is a hand where closing the action, you really wanna see a flop with and dont wanna have to fold to a 4 bet.
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Cold light of day thoughts...
What does he think i have?
He"s seen me raise and fold to a 3bet a couple of times at least. The 48 hand I opened, there was a 3bet and villain cold 4bets.
I"ve opened AK and folded to a donk bet plus a call, I"ve also 3bet JJ and got it in on the turn on xxJK
He knows as much about me as I know about him I guess.
In this hand...
I 3bet oop and led the flop both of which look strong
He calls pre and raises the flop which could, as Rodders says, be strength, bluff or semi-bluff.
I flat his raise on the flop, after some thought and then I check the turn, which looks...?
I understand the idea of getting it in on the flop, but in truth it feels like there"s more two pair, sets or combo draws in his range than enough.
I"m wondering if a fold there might not be sensible.
Anybody think checking the flop is ever a good idea for pot control?
he opens 2.2x and u 3bet to 4x ?
this is ok? would u do the same oop with AA KK QQ etc at this eff stack size?
do u 3bet as a resteal with this sizing also? i cant see any type of player folding any part of his range at this eff stack size ip, and tbh if i was him and saw this sizing, i wouldn"t perceive it as strong in the main.. unless u had some reason for him to perceive this as strong?
oop sucks so this seems like very odd sizing to me, for value or as a resteal, what was u hoping to achieve? from what i can gather in the thread he"s a strong"ish player... unless u thought he"d 4bet light bluff a lot and u thought this sizing would induce it a heck of a lot and u intended to 5bet etc then i can"t see any good points to the sizing...
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3 bet sizing pre makes this hand very difficult for me to play.
Villain could be pouncing on the weakness displayed or could have you crushed.
Make it 4500 ish when OOP. If called here it is a completely different hand as you can now narrow his range.
As played pre, bet call is fine otf (I think). Fold turn seems correct as well.