Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Charlie44 on September 05, 2013, 23:02:36 PM
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Should I cont bet here ? What about future streets ? Is this a good spot to be bluffing turn and river ? What about bet sizing ? No hands on villain. I"ve deleted villains play on river to avoid results orientated response.
PokerStars - $0.10 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
BTN: $69.18
SB: $10.83
BB: $10.70
UTG: $11.92
UTG+1: $8.47
Hero (MP): $6.61
MP+1: $9.34
LP: $10.14
CO: $19.49
SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has 4h 5h
fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, LP calls $0.20, fold, fold, SB calls $0.15, BB calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.80, 4 players) As Ad 3s
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, LP bets $0.20, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.20
Turn: ($1.20, 2 players) Kh
Hero checks, LP bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.25, LP calls $0.95
River: ($3.70, 2 players) Jh
Hero bets $1.41, ?
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Should I cont bet here ? What about future streets ? Is this a good spot to be bluffing turn and river ? What about bet sizing ? No hands on villain. I"ve deleted villains play on river to avoid results orientated response.
PokerStars - $0.10 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
BTN: $69.18
SB: $10.83
BB: $10.70
UTG: $11.92
UTG+1: $8.47
Hero (MP): $6.61
MP+1: $9.34
LP: $10.14
CO: $19.49
SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has 4h 5h
fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, LP calls $0.20, fold, fold, SB calls $0.15, BB calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.80, 4 players) As Ad 3s
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, LP bets $0.20, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.20
Turn: ($1.20, 2 players) Kh
Hero checks, LP bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.25, LP calls $0.95
River: ($3.70, 2 players) Jh
Hero bets $1.41, ?
I think check fold is best, we are oop and its better to have some equity to continue when we miss.
What was your plan here on the flop?
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By the river the board just hits so much of his pre flop calling range square in the mouth that it just feels like a "give up and move on" moment here.
When bluffing online, I tend to do it on low, uncoordinated boards. It makes it much harder for people to have hit after calling pre. A board with 2x aces, a king and a jack on it isn"t the Time to try IMO
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I think check fold is best, we are oop and its better to have some equity to continue when we miss.
What was your plan here on the flop?
My plan checking the flop was to see action behind me. If 2 show interst I fold. By just flatting his flop I planned to rep the ace on the turn. I have of course a gutshot which I though would be totally concealed if hit.
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By the river the board just hits so much of his pre flop calling range square in the mouth that it just feels like a "give up and move on" moment here.
When bluffing online, I tend to do it on low, uncoordinated boards. It makes it much harder for people to have hit after calling pre. A board with 2x aces, a king and a jack on it isn"t the Time to try IMO
Yes take the point Stu. Jack not a great card form me. Obviously I have to bet to win on the river and just thought reasonable chance he has been betting/calling with medium pair or spade flsuh draw.
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I think check fold is best, we are oop and its better to have some equity to continue when we miss.
What was your plan here on the flop?
By just flatting his flop I planned to rep the ace on the turn.
In my experience, once there are two aces on board, repping an Ace is going to fail more often than not.
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I think check fold is best, we are oop and its better to have some equity to continue when we miss.
What was your plan here on the flop?
By just flatting his flop I planned to rep the ace on the turn.
In my experience, once there are two aces on board, repping an Ace is going to fail more often than not.
I don"t mind it (the raise on the turn at least), especially with the bet sizes involved here. I will do a better post on this thread at some point tomorrow, one question I would have though, after he calls you on the turn what hands do you think he could have that you get him to lay down on the river?
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I think check fold is best, we are oop and its better to have some equity to continue when we miss.
What was your plan here on the flop?
By just flatting his flop I planned to rep the ace on the turn.
In my experience, once there are two aces on board, repping an Ace is going to fail more often than not.
I don"t mind it (the raise on the turn at least), especially with the bet sizes involved here. I will do a better post on this thread at some point tomorrow, one question I would have though, after he calls you on the turn what hands do you think he could have that you get him to lay down on the river?
Flush draw main one (even though the board paired- probably calling realively small raise) and may be medium pair.
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Flush draw main one (even though the board paired- probably calling realively small raise) and may be medium pair.
Lots of his fd"s will hold a Ks or a Js so we have very little fold equity.
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Flush draw main one (even though the board paired- probably calling realively small raise) and may be medium pair.
Lots of his fd"s will hold a Ks or a Js so we have very little fold equity.
Of course just opened my eyes a bit more to board texture. This is why it"s good to post hands on forums. Thanks.
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I would play this hand differently in several spots, a lot of this is going to come down to playing style though. To start with I would have turned on auto top up and be playing at least 100BB. This is important when playing a hand like suited connectors as you want to hit a straight ideally (although a flush will do nicely also) and get paid off. You are really limiting how profitable you an be with this hand by only having 66BB.
I would raise to 30c preflop but I doubt that makes too much difference. Given our stack size and position I am honestly wondering if fold pre is the best option but if I am playing the hand I am raising so I like this. I don"t mind getting three calls as I am hoping to hit a good flop/draw with my hand but I probably do now plan to just give up if I miss totally. I have no idea what the callers have at this point.
The flop is not great for our hand, even though we don"t know what they have they all have an ace in their range and we are now not getting anybody off an ace. I have some value with my gutshot but I think I am usually check folding the flop. When the player in position bets out tiny and it folds back to us we are getting near 5/1 on the call. The bet says one of two things to me.
1) He has an ace and is trying to entice us to raise.
2) He is trying to nick the pot but has bet too small (players do this all the time at this level)
The fact he has bet into 3 players make option 1 more likely but not certain, these games also play quite tight. I don"t hate calling one street to try and hit the gutshot, the problem is we could hit it and still be losing. I might sometimes raise it to 80c here as a stone cold bluff to rep the ace here and now and try to win the pot cheaply. If he calls and I miss my gutshot on the turn I am not putting any more money in this pot as there are no real draws he can have and for whatever reason he is not scared of the ace. To be honest I am probably more likely to just fold like a cheap tent in this spot.
On the turn, as played I really don"t mind the raise. It is a strong line and looks like you could have an ace. Again though there are no real draws for him to be chasing and when he calls he seems to either have the ace or have decided you don"t have the ace. Either way I don"t like our chances of getting him on on the river. Brendan make a really good point the king did hit his range as well.
On the river when it is a jack I have to just check/fold. There are no real missed draws, OK yes there was a flush draw on the turn but it seems unlikely, as an aside if it is just the flush draw or a jack you think you can get to fold I think $1 is a better bet size as it does the same job cheaper. I think a King that called the turn probably calls either $1 or $1.48 most of the time.
So in this case I don"t like the river bluff, I have played a few hands similar and tried similar lines. Just does not feel profitable, and indeed has cost me money *lol*.
Mike/Brendan - what is your opinion on raising the flop as a bluff? Is the fact he has bet into 3 player to strong even though the bet is too small?
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Can theys not just be a single click bet to see if people have folded and moved on to another table, being as how it is zoom?
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Mike/Brendan - what is your opinion on raising the flop as a bluff? Is the fact he has bet into 3 player to strong even though the bet is too small?
Bluff raises on paired boards seem very prevalent and transparent atm, so are unlikely to succeed often enough.
Several factors in this spot for me...
- four players have seen a flop, how likely is it that none of them hold an Ace?
- We have very little equity
- Even when we hit our gutshot, we still lose a decent amount of time
- Our line is easily perceived as FOS and we are repping a very thin range against an unknown
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I"m 100% folding pre. Playing these low suited connectors was my biggest leak in zoom. Playing hands like this get you into too many tricky spots with reverse implied odds. Maybe if I were 150bb+ deep I would consider playing. As played I think I"m just giving up on the flop, or maybe peeling 1 and giving up in turn. I would be cbetting flop and turn in a heads up pot. How do you guys feel about triple barrelling on this river as the aggressor if it were a heads up pot?
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Have auto reload on.
C/bet is better than c/c
As played give up on the turn, give up now.
Definitely opening this preflop, it"s an amazing hand.
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Mike/Brendan - what is your opinion on raising the flop as a bluff? Is the fact he has bet into 3 player to strong even though the bet is too small?
Bluff raises on paired boards seem very prevalent and transparent atm, so are unlikely to succeed often enough.
Several factors in this spot for me...
- four players have seen a flop, how likely is it that none of them hold an Ace?
- We have very little equity
- Even when we hit our gutshot, we still lose a decent amount of time
- Our line is easily perceived as FOS and we are repping a very thin range against an unknown
Don"t sit on the fence is that a yes or no ?!!!! ;D
Seriously thanks for the input. On reviewing the hand I agree I played it badly on most if not all streets. I picked a bad spot to be bluffing. He actually folded the river, but I appreciate you should not be results orientated. I guess he probably had a small flush draw like T9 spades, or maybe a medium pair when he made a crying call on the turn. But I think these are lessthan the 27% of his range which I need for the river bluff to be ev+.
I guess I got lucky which is certainly not the formula for long term success.