Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: GiMac on October 21, 2013, 15:08:38 PM
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Am I the only one who thinks the cart is being put before the horse here?
Surely in any real life commercial world those people who are willing to stump up their hard earned cash in advance to pay in full for something should be catered for ahead of those only willing to "reserve" the option to buy something?
Example: I"m selling a car for £5k, two people want to buy it the first wants to pay a non refundable deposit of £100 and pay for the car in 2 weeks, the other is willing to pay the full £5k today. Who would you sell the car to?
Is this not simple? Is this not how real life works? Is this not simple economics? Is this not obvious?
Discuss.
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I reserved a seat via eventbrite as I couldn"t guarantee I was going to be able to play any sats or be able to buy in online at the time of buy in...
I don"t neccessarily agree with the non refundable bit, bit like credit card fee but if all else fails bring back the click fest I loved it
F5 FTW
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Am I the only one who thinks the cart is being put before the horse here?
Surely in any real life commercial world those people who are willing to stump up their hard earned cash in advance to pay in full for something should be catered for ahead of those only willing to "reserve" the option to buy something?
Example: I"m selling a car for £5k, two people want to buy it the first wants to pay a non refundable deposit of £100 and pay for the car in 2 weeks, the other is willing to pay the full £5k today. Who would you sell the car to?
Is this not simple? Is this not how real life works? Is this not simple economics? Is this not obvious?
Discuss.
^This.
I hate the £5 reservation tax.... I"m more than willing to pay full amount many months in advance to reserve my seat, and wish we had that opportunity.
wants to pay a non refundable deposit of £100 and pay for the car in 2 weeks
The £5 isn"t a non refundable deposit - if it were, I suspect most people would be much happier with it. It"s a non refundable additional charge.
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I hated the idea of a £5 reservation fee when it was first announced and I said so. I still hate it but it has become a necessary evil if you want to guarantee a seat at a venue with limited capacity. I may be wrong but the only consolation is that it has generated approximately £500 towards the APAT coffers which I assume offsets the costs due to reduced sponsorship these days.
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^This.
I hate the £5 reservation tax.... I"m more than willing to pay full amount many months in advance to reserve my seat, and wish we had that opportunity.
wants to pay a non refundable deposit of £100 and pay for the car in 2 weeks
The £5 isn"t a non refundable deposit - if it were, I suspect most people would be much happier with it. It"s a non refundable additional charge.
Precisley this ^^^^^^^
Dear APAT
At the end of the day WE ALL KNOW THIS is just a stealth fee, we are believe it or not reasonably intelligent people, so why don"t you just charge a £10 fee for entry, because in reality that"s what you are forcing people to pay anyway? Other places like DTD charge £10 for a £50 game, people pay it because they are happy with the service being provided and DTD are not afraid to charge it because they know they offer a good product.
So in summary APAT grow a pair, have faith in your product and brand and stop fvcking your clients about please.
Best Regards
GiMac
APAT Team Scotland Captain 2013/14
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I hated the idea of a £5 reservation fee when it was first announced and I said so. I still hate it but it has become a necessary evil if you want to guarantee a seat at a venue with limited capacity. I may be wrong but the only consolation is that it has generated approximately £500 towards the APAT coffers which I assume offsets the costs due to reduced sponsorship these days.
Ian you are right and of course it goes straight to APAT's coffers which I am sure we are all happy about. But it"s such a chew on, and tbh is slightly disingenuous of APAT. They should just be up front and charge it as part of the buy in and stop with all this faffing about imho. Plenty of forums have introduced a fee to be a member, the Newcastle Poker Forum for one springs to mind and you know what? I willingly pay my £10 a year to be a member there because I know it pays for the upkeep of the site in these times of austerity when there is less of the poker sponsorship pie to go around, just as I was happy to pay my £10 to APAT for my staking "licence".
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^This.
I hate the £5 reservation tax.... I"m more than willing to pay full amount many months in advance to reserve my seat, and wish we had that opportunity.
wants to pay a non refundable deposit of £100 and pay for the car in 2 weeks
The £5 isn"t a non refundable deposit - if it were, I suspect most people would be much happier with it. It"s a non refundable additional charge.
Precisley this ^^^^^^^
Dear APAT
At the end of the day WE ALL KNOW THIS is just a stealth fee, we are believe it or not reasonably intelligent people, so why don"t you just charge a £10 fee for entry, because in reality that"s what you are forcing people to pay anyway? Other places like DTD charge £10 for a £50 game, people pay it because they are happy with the service being provided and DTD are not afraid to charge it because they know they offer a good product.
So in summary APAT grow a pair, have faith in your product and brand and stop fvcking your clients about please.
Best Regards
GiMac
APAT Team Scotland Captain 2013/14
Strong words but can"t disagree. Saying what no-one else wanted to say.
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I agree with GiMac whole heartedly. Was willing to keep my opinion to myself in the begining as it seemed to be running quite smoothly, but with the debacle that seems to be unfolding now i think it needed said.
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Strong words but can"t disagree. Saying what no-one else wanted to say.
You are right fella, the number of people I have spoken to who have been moaning about this is a lot but most people don"t speak up they either suffer or vote with their feet.
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I also agree but just found out yesterday.
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Strong words but can"t disagree. Saying what no-one else wanted to say.
You are right fella, the number of people I have spoken to who have been moaning about this is a lot but most people don"t speak up they either suffer or vote with their feet.
I"ve mentioned it on here a number of times. Can pay, won"t pay. But putting up the fee for everybody won"t help the cause either. Your suggestion would make a standard APAT £75+12.50 for everyone. That won"t go down too well at many venues either IMO. Paying a membership fee could be counter-productive unless you restrict events to paying APAT members, which also in itself would be counter-productive.
Deal with casino"s/cardrooms that respect the value of the extra business they will do at the gambling tables and the bar. Having a busy cardroom/casino at 2pm on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon has to have a value in these cash strapped times, surely? Although in saying that I"ve never tried it and accept this might be a pipe dream.
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Fellow APAPers
The situation of the additional £5 fee to make sure that you get a seat is one that I have to let my feelings be known. Under no circumstances can we allow this to become the norm. By paying this fee we are allowing this to continue. We travel the length and breadth of the country to compete in these events knowing that the money means little but winning that gold medal or bracelet means everything.
We play because we love everything APAT stands for but if you want to take your trousers down and let them all get a free ride, then go ahead. I for one will be passing.
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As I said previously I have utilised this service to guarantee a seat.
I much prefer the idea of paying up front in full early doors to guarantee my seat
I"m sure this will roll on
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As I said previously I have utilised this service to guarantee a seat.
I much prefer the idea of paying up front in full early doors to guarantee my seat
I"m sure this will roll on
It"s ok it probably wont cos it will get easier and easier to get a seat the more people they piss off fella.
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There was a 16 page discussion on seat reservation at the start of the season and all the reasons that we went forward with it are in the thread.
http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=13851.0
Whether you like it or not the seat reservation option has been a great success. A number of players have played APAT for the first time because they"ve been able to land on the site and click one button to reserve a seat. The charge is there to ensure players don"t reserve without being fairly certain they intend to travel. And those that do travel do so in the knowledge that they have a seat locked up and can plan their travel and accommodation in advance.
Some players don"t want to pay it and I respect their views completely. Andy is a good example, he has played the events he wants to and hasn"t needed to pay it.
The money APAT makes from offering the service is helpful, but is not a factor in the grand scheme of things. Simplifying the option to get a player into the event without adding a whole lot of admin is what this is about. In fact I"ll make sure the £340.20 that APAT collected is put into an APAT freeroll for players who are playing in Glasgow, after the event. Furthermore, if you have paid the £5 fee for Glasgow and feel you"ve had your "trousers pulled down", then post here and I"ll make sure you get the appropriate refund to your APAT online account.
Not sure why such an aggressive tone was taken by Gordon and Paul, but you are way off the mark if you think this is a stealth tax or whatever. If you want to know why we did it at the start of this season, read the thread that I linked to. And finding you don"t have a seat two weeks out, when they"ve been available since July is no excuse.
Finally, if you hate the reservation fee post here. Similarly if you"ve used it and are ok with it, post here. It"s been running for four months now, tell us what you think. A few players have talked about hearing others complain about it....this is what this forum is here for - speak to us.
But do so in a civil tone please. No more of that aggressive nonsense above because we have never let that go on APAT and won"t do for this either.
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I agree with everyone. Let"s all be nice again.
Seriously, I agree with everyone. Des, Steve, Gordon. The £5 fee only becomes a problem for me when it"s released before a full buy-in option. I"m happy to pay a long time in advance and I would resent the only option available costing me an extra fiver when I"m happy for APAT to have the full whack 3 months prior to buy in.
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So far managed to play everything i want to without reserving but i think Glasgow could be the exception where i just end up railing.
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"Not sure why such an aggressive tone was taken by Gordon and Paul, but you are way off the mark if you think this is a stealth tax or whatever".
I dont like the £5 booking fee either, but the tones taken on this thread are quite ridiculous and totally unjustified, regardless of how many people "allegedly" agree with them.
I think Des" offer to run a freeroll for the funds it produced, for those that are in this event, pretty much sum up how much it means in the big scheme of things and makes the comments look even more stupid.
Added :- tbh I"d prefer the money to go to Carl"s charity rather than a freeroll, at least that way some good will come of this thread.
Add your support if you agree.
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I get that the £5 booking fee is not popular with some people ( maybe lots of people ).
Personally I haven"t used the option yet and may never use it, but I do feel that having it there may prove beneficial at some time in the future.
But I don"t get the outright disgust at something that is simply an alternative option, if you don"t like the option don"t use it.
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So far managed to play everything i want to without reserving but i think Glasgow could be the exception where i just end up railing.
You are welcome to my seat, I paid the £5 to reserve one and am now obviously too skint to pay the buy in.....
lol at the raging over a fiver.
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I agree with everyone. Let"s all be nice again.
Seriously, I agree with everyone. Des, Steve, Gordon. The £5 fee only becomes a problem for me when it"s released before a full buy-in option. I"m happy to pay a long time in advance and I would resent the only option available costing me an extra fiver when I"m happy for APAT to have the full whack 3 months prior to buy in.
This really. I read some of the other thread and even comprised a response one evening but lost it somehow before posting.
I"d much prefer to be able to fully register for an event I intend on playing - preferably via a single APAT site with the ability to unregister (up to a specified time in advance to meet APATs Admin needs) thus guaranteeing my seat without the "Reserve a Seat" Function or Extra cost.
Just seems distasteful from a players perspective - I remember some reasoned arguments of why, but ultimately we are still players and its an extra cost (regardless of how small) especially for those travelling.
I don"t mind the Reserve a SEAT function for those that don"t want to Reg online. But both options should be available at same point in time.
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I"d much prefer to be able to fully register for an event I intend on playing - preferably via a single APAT site with the ability to unregister (up to a specified time in advance to meet APATs Admin needs) thus guaranteeing my seat without the "Reserve a Seat" Function or Extra cost.
I don"t mind the Reserve a SEAT function for those that don"t want to (Mini-edit or can"t) Reg online. But both options should be available at same point in time.
This sums up my thoughts
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This is the 1st time I"ve used the "reserve a seat" option and I"d happily use it again, the main reason being i work monday to friday 8-5 and the holding tank opened at 12 noon today , making it impossible for me to buyin direct, if it wasn"t for the reserve a seat option I wouldn"t be playing this tourney
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no offence meant Des but my description was meant to generatde a reaction
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I`ve used it three times now. The earlier I can get a seat, the earlier I can book a flight and hotels, so I end up saving money by getting a cheaper rate for booking far in advance. (eg Paulie`s tip on aer lingus tax only flights, thank you)
I would prefer to buy in with the full amount as far in advance as possible but the £5 booking fee does what I need it to do. After all it only equates to a pint of Guinness in Larry Murphy`s.
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The charge is there to ensure players don"t reserve without being fairly certain they intend to travel. And those that do travel do so in the knowledge that they have a seat locked up and can plan their travel and accommodation in advance.
They"d be able to do this having paid the full amount beforehand too (and wouldn"t have to be at the venue over an hour early). Why don"t those that want to prepay have the same flexibility?
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Are we seriously seeing this amount of bed-wetting over a fiver?
Some absolutely ridic over reacting going on here, if there is something to be said, can it not be said without all the hysteria and gnashing of teeth?
Des/ APAT have always listened to all points of view in the past, without the need to try and organise some kind of revolution. Not sure its needed here.
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Aggressive? No. Meant to get a reaction? yes. If telling you how it is is seen as being aggressive then I think thats got more to do with defensive posturing imho, but I certainly do not in any way mean this to be aggressive, I"m just telling you how I feel.
If you actually read what I posted instead of making and promoting your own agendas, you would realise that I do not have issue with the reservation scheme per se and I understand the logic behind charging for it. It could be £20 to reserve a seat for all I care, in fact I even stated I would be happy to pay a higher registration fee, so it"s not about the fiver as some people who missed the point seem to think.
For those who missed it or just skipped over my point please note, and this is actually the crux of it, why does seat reservation have priority over seat purchase? That just isn"t logical, especially when, as Des indicates approximately a third of the reservation fee is taken by the online processor!!!
It"s all very well saying the seats have been available for months, well they haven"t been for direct purchase, they were only released for direct purchase at midday today (21st Oct)! How many seats made available for direct buy in? A measly 5.
You say it saves on admin, how? Surely it takes the same amount of admin to have an online buyin tank for 5 people as it does for 20?
Imho people who actually want to commit to attending an event by buying in direct in advance should take priority over those who pay a fiver to reserve a seat on the off chance that they might have a free weekend or can be bothered to get out of bed that day. Maybe i am way off the mark but it"s my opinion.
I for one remember the debacle of the tournament at this venue starting late last year due to everyone having to queue around the cardroom for upwards of an hour to buy in at the venue prior to the event starting. Looks like the same thing will happen again this year.
In short all I would like is the same facility that EVERY other UK tour gives its players. Whether it be GUKPT, GPS, UKIPT, 25/25 series, UKIPT Series, DTD, PPUKPT, etc etc, you name it they all have an online direct buy in facility.
I would simply like to go online click a button and register for the event, then turn up on the day and play. I do not want to be forced to reserve a seat, then have to turn up to the venue 1-2hrs before the event and queue up for the best part of an hour to buy in before playing an event. If people want to reserve a seat and do the turn up hours before, queue and pay on the day fine let them have that facility but please do not remove my option to facilitate them, cos lets face it that"s what has happened. In reality 5 seats released for direct buy in is a token and therefore the facility has all but been removed.
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Never used it before, used it this time as I knew numbers would be limited, and proved right to do so. I can"t remember what my first thoughts were when this reg fee was first mooted,but I now think it suits me pretty well, as quite often I don"t know whether I can attend until pretty close to the date, and £5, to reserve a seat means that I can do that with only the risk of losing the cost of a Guiness. As it is, really looking forward to Glasgow :)
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lol at the raging over a fiver.
lol at completely missing the actual point. ;D ;D ;D
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I get that the £5 booking fee is not popular with some people ( maybe lots of people ).
Personally I haven"t used the option yet and may never use it, but I do feel that having it there may prove beneficial at some time in the future.
But I don"t get the outright disgust at something that is simply an alternative option, if you don"t like the option don"t use it.
The disgust isn"t at it being an alternative option, the disgust is at it being the ONLY option.
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Was the reservation opened before the holding tank for Scotland? If it was I can sort of see the point here, as it fills up you feel obliged to reserve a seat or risk not getting one. So you end up having to pay the extra fiver. Not a big deal obviously but the question why was the direct buyin was not available at the same time as the reservation is a good one.
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I get that the £5 booking fee is not popular with some people ( maybe lots of people ).
Personally I haven"t used the option yet and may never use it, but I do feel that having it there may prove beneficial at some time in the future.
But I don"t get the outright disgust at something that is simply an alternative option, if you don"t like the option don"t use it.
The disgust isn"t at it being an alternative option, the disgust is at it being the ONLY option.
As an alternative it is an EXCELLENT service. We get the fact holding tanks need to close in time to get the funds to the casino in time.
I was not sure if I could attend Coventry this year until after the holding tank closed, I therefore used the reservation service and played the event when I would have otherwise missed it.
I would not want the option to go away but still would like the option to just buy in directly.
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I don"t see how the reservation method benefits APAT either, as a tournament that appeared to be full could suddenly have multiple gaps on the day. There is also a risk that, at some point, another very attractive event might be announced after the reservations are in, and a lot of reservers might decide to drop the five pounds and play the other event, leaving a half-full APAT tournament, whereas paid-up players wouldn"t switch or would sell their seat on the exchange.
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Wasn"t the seat reservation fee introduced partly as a result of a number of people reserving seats for APAT Wembley by posting in a thread on the forum, then failing to turn up ?
How about a compromise ? If the seat reservation fee is here to stay, why not make it a non-refundable £20 for no-shows but subtract it from the buy-in of those who turn up. I don"t know how much of an admin nightmare this might create, but it seems like it could be a win-win for everyone.
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Wasn"t the seat reservation fee introduced partly as a result of a number of people reserving seats for APAT Wembley by posting in a thread on the forum, then failing to turn up ?
How about a compromise ? If the seat reservation fee is here to stay, why not make it a non-refundable £20 for no-shows but subtract it from the buy-in of those who turn up. I don"t know how much of an admin nightmare this might create, but it seems like it could be a win-win for everyone.
A non refundable deposit is preferable to a non refundable fee, and far less likely to cause any contention.
If the £5 reservation fee is here to stay, I think it should be opened in parallel to a direct buy in - people can then either pay the full amount in advance and commit to the event, or pay a £5 fee if they are unsure about whether they will play or not.
The current system is a penalty to those that wish to pay in advance - both of the above options would overcome that.
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I agree with all the parallel fee option talk.
Since this is the first APAT that has sold out based on reservation fee I hope that some analysis is done on how many of those people actually make it to the game. If the event doesn"t sell out on the day it will be a disaster.
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If the £5 reservation fee is here to stay, I think it should be opened in parallel to a direct buy in - people can then either pay the full amount in advance and commit to the event, or pay a £5 fee if they are unsure about whether they will play or not.
Playing devil"s advocate here :) lets say for argument"s sake that there is a 120 seat APAT event. At 2pm on Monday (one month in advance of the event), the holding tank is opened for direct buy-ins at the same time as Eventbrite invite players to reserve a seat. By the end of business on that Monday 90 players have bought in for the full amount and 55 players have reserved a seat. It"s highly unlikely I know, but what happens then ? How would you choose which 25 "reserve a seat" players get a refund ?
Even if that scenario didn"t unfold, at some point during the month you could easily end up with more seats reserved than there are available. The two systems (holding tank and eventbrite) would have to be linked to each other to ensure that once capacity was reached they stopped selling/reserving. As far as I understand it, they are two totally separate entities.
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If the £5 reservation fee is here to stay, I think it should be opened in parallel to a direct buy in - people can then either pay the full amount in advance and commit to the event, or pay a £5 fee if they are unsure about whether they will play or not.
Playing devil"s advocate here :) lets say for argument"s sake that there is a 120 seat APAT event. At 2pm on Monday (one month in advance of the event), the holding tank is opened for direct buy-ins at the same time as Eventbrite invite players to reserve a seat. By the end of business on that Monday 90 players have bought in for the full amount and 55 players have reserved a seat. It"s highly unlikely I know, but what happens then ? How would you choose which 25 "reserve a seat" players get a refund ?
Even if that scenario didn"t unfold, at some point during the month you could easily end up with more seats reserved than there are available. The two systems (holding tank and eventbrite) would have to be linked to each other to ensure that once capacity was reached they stopped selling/reserving. As far as I understand it, they are two totally separate entities.
Yeah, can"t see any way round that. ::)
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I"d much prefer to be able to fully register for an event I intend on playing - preferably via a single APAT site with the ability to unregister (up to a specified time in advance to meet APATs Admin needs) thus guaranteeing my seat without the "Reserve a Seat" Function or Extra cost.
I don"t mind the Reserve a SEAT function for those that don"t want to (Mini-edit or can"t) Reg online. But both options should be available at same point in time.
+2
The announcements for the season are posted well in advance, so we pretty much know 100% where and when we are playing (albeit apart from WCOAP final leg).
Don"t know the ins and outs of PayPal charges etc, but could those who want to pay in full well in advance prehaps pay into a PayPal account held by APAT prehaps paying a little extra to cover admin charges etc?. Prehaps hold 75% of the seats in a holding tank for those wanting to pay in full, say a month 6 weeks before event if all seats are not sold then open em up for the reserve a seat option?
Just a thought but obv don"t know about the logistics/ costs of withdrawing funds and transferring to casino..
Whatever the outcome there is always going to be conflicting views on whatever Des/APAT decide, those who have used the reserve option have stated that they have had no real qualms using this.. If you are against paying the £5 fee it"s your choice to pay or not.. Def don"t think Des has to justify doing a freeroll for the funds already taken, if they go in to the APAT coffers to help with costs of medals, award trophies etc then it"s a win for all of us.
This sums up my thoughts
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As I said in a previous thread... I like the idea of the £5 reserve fee but I feel there were far too many seats allocated to it. 5 seats for those putting up the full buy in is a bit disappointing. Split it 50/50 and the F5 crew also get to have their fun when the holding tank opens. :)
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If the £5 reservation fee is here to stay, I think it should be opened in parallel to a direct buy in - people can then either pay the full amount in advance and commit to the event, or pay a £5 fee if they are unsure about whether they will play or not.
Playing devil"s advocate here :) lets say for argument"s sake that there is a 120 seat APAT event. At 2pm on Monday (one month in advance of the event), the holding tank is opened for direct buy-ins at the same time as Eventbrite invite players to reserve a seat. By the end of business on that Monday 90 players have bought in for the full amount and 55 players have reserved a seat. It"s highly unlikely I know, but what happens then ? How would you choose which 25 "reserve a seat" players get a refund ?
Even if that scenario didn"t unfold, at some point during the month you could easily end up with more seats reserved than there are available. The two systems (holding tank and eventbrite) would have to be linked to each other to ensure that once capacity was reached they stopped selling/reserving. As far as I understand it, they are two totally separate entities.
Split the seat allocation however you like. eg 50% direct buy, 50% Eventbrite or any other split you want i.e. 60/40, 70/30. Any left over from either option can then be shifted to the remaining option. For example reservation sells out, but direct buy in has 5 seats left, then offer those seats up for reservation or vice versa. Easy game. 8)
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Split the seat allocation however you like. eg 50% direct buy, 50% Eventbrite or any other split you want i.e. 60/40, 70/30. Any left over from either option can then be shifted to the remaining option. For example reservation sells out, but direct buy in has 5 seats left, then offer those seats up for reservation or vice versa. Easy game. 8)
This, I suspect, given the issues that Glasgow has had, will be the likely outcome of this discussion...if it isn"t already.
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Not going to Glasgow, but can anyone explain why on earth the seat-purchase would open at 12 noon?
Going back to my post on another thread about APAT changing....in season one I missed out on Birmingham and Walsall because they were sold out. Now people cant even buy in !!
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Not going to Glasgow, but can anyone explain why on earth the seat-purchase would open at 12 noon?
Going back to my post on another thread about APAT changing....in season one I missed out on Birmingham and Walsall because they were sold out. Now people cant even buy in !!
BOINGBLITZ I take you point on 12:00 noon seat sale - that won"t happen again.
L&G please see HERE (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=14335.0) for latest on Glasgow - including latest news on seat availability (and max runners) etc