Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: fandango on December 11, 2013, 14:17:18 PM
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Just wanted an unbiased discussion about the International team event, if this is removed by mods I understand.
Last season as you may/may not know I was lucky to be involved in the winning team England squad at WCOAP, I also have been fortunate to win a national title aswell, but hand on heart winning team gold has been my greatest thrill to date.
So when announcements where made for this years WCOAP the team Steve contacted all four of us Asa, Stu, Tony and myself and explained the situation that he would not captain this years team if we all could not go back as defending champs.
So as a team who had formed a great bond we all agreed that when a new skip was announced we would not apply for the squad.
We where told that the reason for teams being cut from 5-4 was that countries are finding it difficult to find 5 players to play for them..
Well over the success of ECOAP all 10 countries I has he pleasure to play against where excited and ready for WCOAP, the French, Swiss, Cz, Slovaks, Belgium etc all said that they wanted to play and would have no problem finding 1 other player, Germany and Italy had awesome numbers there and many of the supporters who travelled with them also played the ME.
So are the teams struggling to find 5 players just the international teams?? Canada, USA, Malaysia? Or am I wrong is Scotland, Wales and Ireland also struggling?
Are we thinking of the minority rather than the majority?.. Obviously I"m thinking with a biased head as it effects me and the other members of the team more than anyone else, but I know if it was a strong group of friends like say Scotland or Ireland where in the same boat I would sympathise 100% with them in the same situation.
Surely if teams where given 3 months to find 1 extra player this would be acceptable.?
Discuss...
Edit.. Could this prehaps get moved from this board to another? Prehaps live or general discussion?
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I know Des had feedback from some teams that sourcing 5 players was too much of a stretch, and that 4 was more achievable. I can"t really comment on that feedback, however would suggest that if any country is having difficulty, then there isn"t too much difference between 4 and 5.
With respect to the home countries and Euro countries, I firmly believe, and have stated elsewhere, that our multiplicity of team events has caused a level of saturation meaning that the prestigious nature of the events is lost, and the attraction for people to play is not so strong. If we could return to a point where these international team events carry a certain level of prestige, I suspect it would be less of an issue to get a team together.
On a personal note, when I heard that the teams would be reduced from 5 to 4, I realised my options would be to either pick a new and different team; to pick the same team but to drop a player; or pick the same team and be a non playing captain. None of these are viable options for me. I discussed with the other members of our winning team, and we agreed that if we couldn"t defend as a complete team, then we wouldn"t defend at all.
If the event does end up being 4 per team, I will be gutted, but will understand. I"m hoping that the event of last year is replicated with 5 per team.
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Nice post Carl, really captures that special vibe of winning an International gold.
Having been in your shoes once I fully understand the nostalgic appeal of defending with the same line up. We were unable to field the same team thus denied the privilege and tbh that"s exactly what it is, a privilege.
I would fully understand the very same Team defending the title for England but it has to be acknowledged, there are many many top players that haven"t had the good fortune to taste that experience. Should these players be a consideration?
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I have been proud to be selected an APAT team event as part of an England team on a couple of occasions so, perhaps, I am not entirely unbiased but here"s my 2 cents.
Firstly, I completely understand Steve"s desire that the winning squad would wish to defend their title but, by the same token, and I absolutely mean no disrespect, it was an England Team that won...so England were the defending champs NOT necessarily the same individuals that made up that team.
Of course, the squad that made up the winning team want to defend BUT the overriding factor (IMO) should be picking the right/best squad to defend England"s title whether that constitutes the same squad or not.
If teams ARE having issues getting a squad of 5 perhaps an option could be implemented that you can have a squad of 5 but only 4 can play at a time. Haven"t we done that before at team events?
Does this give a 5-man team an advantage?...Perhaps...but, then again, extra support should, arguably, be rewarded.
As for the number of team events..APAT has 3 "country based" team events at most..does it not?
- Home Internationals
- ECOAP
- WCOAP
At each stage/level the "range/area" is expanded from just the UK (and Ireland)...to the whole of Europe and then the World.
I kind of like that....if we had to drop a team event, I would rather it was the forum event but I understand the reasons why that event still exists.
As always, my opinions are my own, regardless of whether you agree....or not. :)
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The any four at a time from a team of five was used for ECOAP 2012, and in my humble opinion it turned out to be a bad approach. Some teams had 4 players, which meant that all of their players were always involved, whilst the home nations had to have 5 players (4 + the highest online league player), which meant they always had someone sat out, including during the final MTT round.
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This is a difficult one. It does seem a shame that the England team are not able to defend their championship. We do have to look at the bigger picture though. The player pool and situation England have is far from being the norm.
Realistically the team event clashes with the best event of the year and by asking people to play in this event you are asking them to skip the majority of WCOAP. This makes it hard for small player pools to get enough players. Taking Wales as an example, I am not sure what is happening with the Welsh team for WCOAP or if there will even be one but a lot of the players in Wales, who have played in the past, feel they have now been there and done that and would rather focus on the individual events. When you have a small player pool this is always going to happen. Also the cost of the team event is equal to two side events, that"s without the cost of the shirts. This makes it harder to get the players on board also.
The other issue that it brings up is that trying to put a team together you really don"t want to be picking players to effectively "make the numbers up". You want all teams to be as competitive as possible. If I am captain of Wales for example for the WCOAP I would absolutely not pick myself whatever. I am not very good at the formats of these events and if I picked myself even to just make up the numbers it would effectively be asking the other players I pick to pay the considerable cost of a team event and miss other high quality events whilst at a disadvantage against the other teams. Based on this you have to try and select a fully competitive team without weak links and again this is harder from a small player pool. A number of players have mentioned to me they would rather not play due to the event being -EV.
Based on all of the above I would suggest overall a 4 person team is better than a 5 person team.
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Probably the wrong thread for this, so i apologise if i take away from the discussion here, but here is an idea that was suggested to Des a while back and wonder what you guys would think.
A good point is made that to participate in the the team event a player is unable to participate in the individual events at the worlds, which to me is a massive shame. The solution we suggested was that groups of people would join and pay a team fee or registration - which would then go towards a team prizepool. (if players wanted to participate in a team, but didnt have enough people they could also be put into a pool where teams could be drawn etc)
A team could consist of 5 to as many players as was wanted. The team would then submit 4 names prior to each side event who they wished to represent them, with the finishing places in the side events scored appropriately.
This would allow full participation in the individual events, but would still create a strong team bond and continue to foster the great Apat spirit.
Thoughts???
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I would fully understand the very same Team defending the title for England but it has to be acknowledged, there are many many top players that haven"t had the good fortune to taste that experience. Should these players be a consideration?
Yes Brendan I agree 100% about considering giving new players a taste of the experience, when I captained the forum team last season I made sure the team had players who had never had the opportunity to play before, as I did in the recent home internationals, it was my goal that to help new players get a foot on the first rung of the ladder hopefully I achieved this when Dan, And Joe was picked, likewise Liam, Dave and Brian in the forum team..I"m obv speaking from the heart in this thread and my views are going to be biased.
Also Steve it was discussed recently at ECOAP about the Welsh situation, and shooting from the hip here it saddens me to think some guys are for going the "financial" factor of playing individual events rather than the pride of representing their homeland, but each to their own I guess.
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I think that countries should have the option of choosing a squad of 5 but only 4 playing in any one round. This eliminates the problem of countries only having 4 players as they"d all play each round anyway. Having a squad of 5 also creates a dynamic where the captain has a tactical decision to make as to who to leave out for each particular round.
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This is a difficult one. It does seem a shame that the England team are not able to defend their championship. We do have to look at the bigger picture though. The player pool and situation England have is far from being the norm.
I have to disagree to some point here... Look at the strength of numbers the welsh have for example, I could easily name at least 10 players who would grace any international team, and I"m in no doubt that at least 5 or 6 will be at WCOAP.. It seems as have been said that they would rather play individual events because of the money situation..
Scotland, obv are in the same boat and have many very talented individuals who could represent their homeland..
Yes England are always going to have the most players to choose from, but I guess that shouldn"t really effect the outcome at the end of the day it"s only 5 to choose just makes the skippers job harder.
I"m just speaking from feedback gained at ECOAP from the other 7 countries , Cz, Germany, Belgium, Slovakia, Italy, France and the Swiss..
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FWIW and risking offending or upsetting last years victorious England Team, I would be very disappointed if other English players were not given the opportunity to represent England in this years event. Some of you have been lucky enough to play these events on many occasions, and others only once, but there are many capable players out there that never seem to get a look in, and to go with the "We won it last year so we"re playing again this year" is wrong IMO.
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FWIW and risking offending or upsetting last years victorious England Team, I would be very disappointed if other English players were not given the opportunity to represent England in this years event. Some of you have been lucky enough to play these events on many occasions, and others only once, but there are many capable players out there that never seem to get a look in, and to go with the "We won it last year so we"re playing again this year" is wrong IMO.
That, I think, is another subject from the question being posed.
Team selection is the Captain"s decision.
Team size....is APAT's
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This is a difficult one. It does seem a shame that the England team are not able to defend their championship. We do have to look at the bigger picture though. The player pool and situation England have is far from being the norm.
I have to disagree to some point here... Look at the strength of numbers the welsh have for example, I could easily name at least 10 players who would grace any international team, and I"m in no doubt that at least 5 or 6 will be at WCOAP.. It seems as have been said that they would rather play individual events because of the money situation..
OK, I can understand this (to a certain extent). However looking at it from a lot of peoples point of view, they need to be away from home and book valuable holiday from work for extra time to play the international event. This also comes with the additional expense of having to book extra nights in hotels and being away from partners and children for times like August Bank Holiday and Easter.
For an England player who has been selected for England as a one off and it is a really big deal (being selected to play for England in WCOAP means a lot and anybody selected should feel rightly proud) I can imagine the players are more than happy to do this and partners being happy to look after children ect so they can do it.
Doing the same a couple of times each year to play for Wales is a bit of a different ask and let"s be honest it is not the same as being picked for England (it hurts to say that but being selected for Wales is just not as hard as being selected for England). There are players who have played events for Wales almost every season since the beginning of APAT (doing all of the above each time) and I can understand why they may wish to do their own thing for a couple of seasons. If this is the situation in Wales I can only think it is even harder for the international teams.
At the end of the day I am still confident Wales will put a competitive team out there in April. Possibly even our best team but I would have no issue with any of those guys saying they did not want to play due to the above reasons. I am guessing if Paul is available to take over the team in April his thoughts would be along the same lines, although I would not want to speak for him.
With this in mind 4 players is a better number than 5. I have said for a long time that there should be an England A and B team due to the sheer size of the player pool, too many deserving players miss out because of this.
The squad of 5 players with 4 playing each round makes sense to me also.
FWIW and risking offending or upsetting last years victorious England Team, I would be very disappointed if other English players were not given the opportunity to represent England in this years event. Some of you have been lucky enough to play these events on many occasions, and others only once, but there are many capable players out there that never seem to get a look in, and to go with the "We won it last year so we"re playing again this year" is wrong IMO.
I think it should absolutely be the same team. They were a GREAT team who 100% deserved to win the event. The event would be better if they were in it again defending their title. They just have everything that a team needs, if they do play again and everybody plays to their absolute best and the cards break even. Well I can only think of one group of players who can beat them.
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I think it should absolutely be the same team. They were a GREAT team who 100% deserved to win the event. The event would be better if they were in it again defending their title. They just have everything that a team needs, if they do play again and everybody plays to their absolute best and the cards break even. Well I can only think of one group of players who can beat them.
Completely disagree...no matter how much the squad wants to repeat.
If the format of the event changed...say new sub-events were introduced/substituted (Razz, Stud, Shove-happeny) why would the same squad be needed? The skillset has changed...so should the squad.
Even if the format were exactly the same, why exclude new players...I can"t think of any international team game where this is the case from one year to the next.
I get the desire for champions to repeat but England won a country based event....if a more "qualified" (based on whatever criteria are used) squad exists...that new squad should get the nod.
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FWIW and risking offending or upsetting last years victorious England Team, I would be very disappointed if other English players were not given the opportunity to represent England in this years event. Some of you have been lucky enough to play these events on many occasions, and others only once, but there are many capable players out there that never seem to get a look in, and to go with the "We won it last year so we"re playing again this year" is wrong IMO.
As one of last year"s team, I like Carl, am obv biased.
When I was told that it was going to be 4 members to a team, and what that meant to us, I was totally gutted.
Nearly every other team who has won it has had the opportunity to defend it, we can"t do to the number in the team now, but even if it were five to a team why should we be punished for being English?
If we hadn"t won it, I very much doubt I would have applied to play for England again, as I have been privallaged to do it 4 times, getting a gold, sol we and bronze medal whilst doing so. The pride that I have felt each time has been immense, but I would have not applied to let other people have a go. Hardly the typical selfish England international :p
If other team have agreed that they could get another player, then why not go for it? There is loads of time to sort it out if we start now!!! I just really hope it is considered.
Forgive spelling mistakes, I"m on my phone!!
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I think that countries should have the option of choosing a squad of 5 but only 4 playing in any one round. This eliminates the problem of countries only having 4 players as they"d all play each round anyway. Having a squad of 5 also creates a dynamic where the captain has a tactical decision to make as to who to leave out for each particular round.
This could be a great alternative.
4 or 5 is a big difference I think. We, Team Belgium, would probably be able to find a 5th, but it"s a huge difference in transport and accommodation. We came to Prague by car... 4 people is ideal, 5 people would mean that we need 2 cars.
The hotel: most have 2-people or 4-people rooms/apartments... 5 would mean extra costs.
So I would prefer 4 people; but having 5 player teams and only 4 needed in any event, would be a good alternative. That way you could also have more non-holdem events... let"s say that you have a phase where 2 players have to play PLO and 2 players have to play (let"s say) stud.
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FWIW and risking offending or upsetting last years victorious England Team, I would be very disappointed if other English players were not given the opportunity to represent England in this years event. Some of you have been lucky enough to play these events on many occasions, and others only once, but there are many capable players out there that never seem to get a look in, and to go with the "We won it last year so we"re playing again this year" is wrong IMO.
I for one is neither offended or upset Mike..
It has been the usual format that the top points scorer over the season for each country has automatically been given a place in the squad so they are there on merit.
This is not the case for this season for reasons unknown to me..
Then skip has to choose from the rest of the applicants, of course there are "many capable" players but I"m sure when the elected skip does choose he wants to pick who he thinks will perform best for his team, I"m sure there is no " favouritism" being dealt out here.. IMO for instance I would choose Chris Webber at a drop if I was skip for WCOAP this year, the guy has been immense this season as have Warren (Welsh) and they should be picked on merit.
Just my own thoughts on this...
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I think that countries should have the option of choosing a squad of 5 but only 4 playing in any one round. This eliminates the problem of countries only having 4 players as they"d all play each round anyway. Having a squad of 5 also creates a dynamic where the captain has a tactical decision to make as to who to leave out for each particular round.
This could be a great alternative.
4 or 5 is a big difference I think. We, Team Belgium, would probably be able to find a 5th, but it"s a huge difference in transport and accommodation. We came to Prague by car... 4 people is ideal, 5 people would mean that we need 2 cars.
The hotel: most have 2-people or 4-people rooms/apartments... 5 would mean extra costs.
So I would prefer 4 people; but having 5 player teams and only 4 needed in any event, would be a good alternative. That way you could also have more non-holdem events... let"s say that you have a phase where 2 players have to play PLO and 2 players have to play (let"s say) stud.
I agree this is a good compromise and should be considered.
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Winning country gets the option of putting in two teams for next event, ie the champion team, plus a selected team. Optional so that countries that can"t provide two teams would not be hampered.
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FWIW and risking offending or upsetting last years victorious England Team, I would be very disappointed if other English players were not given the opportunity to represent England in this years event. Some of you have been lucky enough to play these events on many occasions, and others only once, but there are many capable players out there that never seem to get a look in, and to go with the "We won it last year so we"re playing again this year" is wrong IMO.
I for one is neither offended or upset Mike..
It has been the usual format that the top points scorer over the season for each country has automatically been given a place in the squad so they are there on merit.
This is not the case for this season for reasons unknown to me..
Then skip has to choose from the rest of the applicants, of course there are "many capable" players but I"m sure when the elected skip does choose he wants to pick who he thinks will perform best for his team, I"m sure there is no " favouritism" being dealt out here.. IMO for instance I would choose Chris Webber at a drop if I was skip for WCOAP this year, the guy has been immense this season as have Warren (Welsh) and they should be picked on merit.
Just my own thoughts on this...
ooooo good call. Like.
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Winning country gets the option of putting in two teams for next event, ie the champion team, plus a selected team. Optional so that countries that can"t provide two teams would not be hampered.
Sorry Steve , don"t agree with this^^^ the only country able to do this would be england for obvious reasons so defeats the point !!, where sometimes some countries struggle to get 1 team whether its 4 or 5 in a team,
As to all the above points , agree that a 4 man team would be easier for some countries to get together, as to selection for me I would be happy to play for wales every time if asked but it all comes down to money in the end ( unfortunately ) and with travelling expenses etc ( eg prague ) too much for me I"m afraid, also I think more people should be given the chance to play for their country if they wanted, returning champions being the only team that should be given the chance of returning the following year to defend and if some can"t then captain picks replacement!!, ( e.g. If wales won 3 years on the run I wouldn"t be unhappy that I didn"t get picked but proud that my country has done so well - but that"s my thoughts,
whatever happens APAT won"t be able to please everyone :-\ :-\
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Winning country gets the option of putting in two teams for next event, ie the champion team, plus a selected team. Optional so that countries that can"t provide two teams would not be hampered.
Sorry Steve , don"t agree with this^^^
Haha sure you don"t need to apologise for disagreeing. I just put that thought out there as an alternative...
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LOL NP steve , if all countries could get the numbers that england can I would agree with the idea totally :)
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I"d like to see the format changed.
I"d like to see 4/5 per team, and multiple disciplines.
PLO, NLH, Stud, Razz, HU, HORSE, 6 max
Captains then have to pick the best poker players from their countries and not friends/mates etc
Captains rank their players on each discipline and are matched vs other countries players of the same ranking.
Ie Carl is England"s #1 PLO player. His sng features all the #1 ranks in.
This would also allow captains to actually play tactically, instead of just giving a player a number and it"s pot luck.
I"d also like to see the seat draw being more random. At the euros I had England A on my left in all but 1 sng. That was a ball ache and just bad for game play for all.
As for selection it"s an odd one.
I played the Euros, in the B team. I would love to get selected for Worlds but I was under no false illusion that the team that won the year prior were coming back to defend. If I had known that before I arrived I prob would have played the sides and declined my spot in the team as I felt I had nothing to play for, bar winning a medal.
That sounds pretty selfish, but when speaking to Carl at homes that"s when I found out they were looking to use same team. He may have posted before online, but I"d not noticed.
I wanted to go to Homes, play well, win gold and then get picked for Euros/Worlds/both.
When I got there, I was now in a position where I knew that even if I won every sng, I wouldn"t have a chance for the worlds. Pretty gutting.
Tod, Adam and I all performed well and got in top 10 individuals, and outperformed stalwarts like Carl and Stu, but still don"t have a chance for selection. some seemed more interested in alcohol, some not interested at all. [NB I am not knocking Carl or Stu"s ability here, merely looking at the numbers on the paper and how I felt on the weekend]
Maybe, and I say maybe, this is why the 3 English teams that have played so far this year have only picked up 1x Bronze.
Anyway that"s my 2ps worth.
I"m sure some may take offense in my words, but I like to be openly honest.
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Maybe, and I say maybe, this is why the 3 English teams that have played so far this year have only picked up 1x Bronze.
Ahem - you forgetting the English team that played in April this year and won Gold (and bracelets)??
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Would like to see see some sort of selection procedure put in place for future years for at least home nation teams.
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Maybe, and I say maybe, this is why the 3 English teams that have played so far this year have only picked up 1x Bronze.
Ahem - you forgetting the English team that played in April this year and won Gold (and bracelets)??
We both know I meant this season
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Maybe, and I say maybe, this is why the 3 English teams that have played so far this year have only picked up 1x Bronze.
Ahem - you forgetting the English team that played in April this year and won Gold (and bracelets)??
We both know I meant this season
hmmm my mistake - I thought "this year" meant this year ;)
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Jingle jangle
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Can i also point out that picking a team is not just about picking the best players... its about picking a TEAM.
When i have picked teams i have gone for a blend of people i know would get on and support each other in the event, which helps each individual.
When we won the Worlds, it was because we stuck together as a team. We all railed each player when we were out. We didnt just clear off and talk to our mates. I know from talking to the guys that this made a massive difference to each and every one of us at some point during the tournament. Whether it was me in my Omaha SNG on day 2, or Carl in the last NLHE SNG or Tony in his headsup match. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
Just throwing a group of randoms together is not a - Going to make a winning team or b - make the experience enjoyable for all concerned.
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Can i also point out that picking a team is not just about picking the best players... its about picking a TEAM.
When i have picked teams i have gone for a blend of people i know would get on and support each other in the event, which helps each individual.
When we won the Worlds, it was because we stuck together as a team. We all railed each player when we were out. We didnt just clear off and talk to our mates. I know from talking to the guys that this made a massive difference to each and every one of us at some point during the tournament. Whether it was me in my Omaha SNG on day 2, or Carl in the last NLHE SNG or Tony in his headsup match. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
Just throwing a group of randoms together is not a - Going to make a winning team or b - make the experience enjoyable for all concerned.
This...
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Can i also point out that picking a team is not just about picking the best players... its about picking a TEAM.
When i have picked teams i have gone for a blend of people i know would get on and support each other in the event, which helps each individual.
When we won the Worlds, it was because we stuck together as a team. We all railed each player when we were out. We didnt just clear off and talk to our mates. I know from talking to the guys that this made a massive difference to each and every one of us at some point during the tournament. Whether it was me in my Omaha SNG on day 2, or Carl in the last NLHE SNG or Tony in his headsup match. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
Just throwing a group of randoms together is not a - Going to make a winning team or b - make the experience enjoyable for all concerned.
Thats an interesting point stu.
Although having not played as part of a team can u explain to me why it made a difference? I mean i would of thought you should be looking to make optimal decisions at all times regardless of whether you had a rail or not.
Just to be clear i am not disagreeing with your statement, im just curious as to how u feel it made u "play better"?
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No probs chris, and it is kind of hard to explain as Poker is such and individual game.
Just having someone there giving you a bit of morale support really helps in what does become quite stressful situations i suppose.
When you are scrapping for points to make sure you get into a gold medal match, just having a team mate here (obv would prefer they are in their SNG mind you :p ) giving you a little bit of encouragement and finding out how your team mates are getting on, letting you know the points situation etc is absolutely invaluable in my experience.
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Let"s be fair stu, our B team had none of that.
Randomly I think me and Paulie spoke more in Cov than we did at DTD that weekend, Altho that"s prob cuz he didn"t like me much :)
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Can i also point out that picking a team is not just about picking the best players... its about picking a TEAM.
When i have picked teams i have gone for a blend of people i know would get on and support each other in the event, which helps each individual.
When we won the Worlds, it was because we stuck together as a team. We all railed each player when we were out. We didnt just clear off and talk to our mates. I know from talking to the guys that this made a massive difference to each and every one of us at some point during the tournament. Whether it was me in my Omaha SNG on day 2, or Carl in the last NLHE SNG or Tony in his headsup match. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
Just throwing a group of randoms together is not a - Going to make a winning team or b - make the experience enjoyable for all concerned.
Thats an interesting point stu.
Although having not played as part of a team can u explain to me why it made a difference? I mean i would of thought you should be looking to make optimal decisions at all times regardless of whether you had a rail or not.
Just to be clear i am not disagreeing with your statement, im just curious as to how u feel it made u "play better"?
There are deffo spots where a -ev spot for an individual can be +ev for the team, and having a rail reminds u of that.
I had to fold ATC in last sng for as long as possible to try and lock up 4th and play off for us in DTD
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Altho that"s prob cuz he didn"t like me much :)
seems legit...
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Let"s be fair stu, our B team had none of that.
Randomly I think me and Paulie spoke more in Cov than we did at DTD that weekend, Altho that"s prob cuz he didn"t like me much :)
Disagree...I think we had loads.
True we didn"t all know each other but we meshed really well IMO...and that"s the point.
As for speaking, we had more time in Coventry....at DTD I was busy going deep. :)
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Stu totally agree with you about support from team mates etc
Only gripe for a lot of england players who want to play is how do they get in the team ??
Yes you want a good balance / good players but also for someone who"s english as eg how do they get into the team ??
there must be a way as i think has been done before to balance the team selection so other players get a chance and not just 1 extra player ( score ranking ),
What ever the result no one will be happy LOL :)
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Just tad off the OP topic (sorry Paulie, shoot me later) but just my 2p to TPTB is that I wish the Euro and World team events were somehow able not to clash with the side events at WCOAP and ECOAP. Yeah I know impossible but rarely being able to pit my wits against such great mixed game players as John Murray (who is perma chosen for the Irish team) and a few others who seem to wear the national shirt more often than not is frustrating. It would be nice to be able to play a high profile/promoted mixed game other than Omaha where there isn"t a clash with another APAT event thus affecting the numbers.
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I wish the Euro and World team events were somehow able not to clash with the side events at WCOAP and ECOAP.
Off Topic...but I happen to agree.
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Stu totally agree with you about support from team mates etc
Only gripe for a lot of england players who want to play is how do they get in the team ??
Yes you want a good balance / good players but also for someone who"s english as eg how do they get into the team ??
there must be a way as i think has been done before to balance the team selection so other players get a chance and not just 1 extra player ( score ranking ),
What ever the result no one will be happy LOL :)
Gary I can prehaps answer this from my perspective..
A good start is to obv have some good results both online/live and always good IMO to be a regular contributor to APAT regarding the forum and tour..
I remember a conversation I had with Dann when he was a relative new comer to the scene, he bemoaned the fact that he thought he would never ever get a place in any England squad.. My advice to him was to be more active on the forum and on the tour and his chances would increase rather than just sit in the background and not get involved.
Low and behold Dan was rewarded for his efforts, so I think this is always a good start on how to be considered.
When Steve picked his team last year he did state the reasons for his choices and TBF I think it was spot on, prior to my own selection I can say that I had probably only talked to Steve in person at least twice, it was only that I ran like god in 2012 that prehaps I even got a look in.. Same goes for this year it"s plain to see Warren and Chris should be selected on merit alone the guys have been on a complete tear up.
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On Stu"s theory i reccomend Team Gotham to represent England at the Worlds!
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As for selection it"s an odd one.
I played the Euros, in the B team. I would love to get selected for Worlds but I was under no false illusion that the team that won the year prior were coming back to defend. If I had known that before I arrived I prob would have played the sides and declined my spot in the team as I felt I had nothing to play for, bar winning a medal.
That sounds pretty selfish, but when speaking to Carl at homes that"s when I found out they were looking to use same team. He may have posted before online, but I"d not noticed.
I wanted to go to Homes, play well, win gold and then get picked for Euros/Worlds/both.
When I got there, I was now in a position where I knew that even if I won every sng, I wouldn"t have a chance for the worlds. Pretty gutting.
Tod, Adam and I all performed well and got in top 10 individuals, and outperformed stalwarts like Carl and Stu, but still don"t have a chance for selection. some seemed more interested in alcohol, some not interested at all. [NB I am not knocking Carl or Stu"s ability here, merely looking at the numbers on the paper and how I felt on the weekend]
Maybe, and I say maybe, this is why the 3 English teams that have played so far this year have only picked up 1x Bronze.
Anyway that"s my 2ps worth.
I"m sure some may take offense in my words, but I like to be openly honest.
Don"t see any need for anybody to take offense to what is a good discussion
Just my 2 cents on this:-
I understand the frustration here Dann, to a certain extent. When I first started playing at APAT in season 4 I was the top ranked player that season and came 2nd in the WCOAP main event. I also had a fair bit of online success in a few leagues including APAT and Blonde at the same time. I was lucky enough to play for Wales at the Home Internationals, which we won, I was also the captain of the APAT forum team that year.
However I was not even considered for the Welsh team at the worlds, this was quite correct, as I said at the time. At the time Wales were the defending Champions and had what I would consider the best team ever to compete in these events. The team that won the previous year returned, duly won again (I railed them to victory) and then they decided that it was time to give others a chance in the team so the team was changed for the next event. I was then selected, after picking up another couple of final tables and having a pretty good season five. This really did feel like an achievement though as I had really had to prove myself before I got into the team.
What this is demonstrating is the real prestige of getting into your international team at the worlds. It"s meant to be bloody hard, you are meant to earn your place. This is even more so when your team is doing so well as England are at the moment (and they are doing well). Be proud to be part of the extended squad and to be involved with such a great team.
When you do get selected to represent England at the worlds (and it will happen) the fact that you earned your place in this team, of such high quality, will make it all the more worth it.
I like the idea of mixing up the formats and selecting players to play each of the formats. Would make team selection much more interesting.
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On Stu"s theory i reccomend Team Gotham to represent England at the Worlds!
Wouldn"t work. We have more than 4 players!!! Haha
Couldn"t have Webber playing, who"d win all the non Gold side event medals!!! :)
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Flip for who gets to be mascot or if one of them hasn"t had a 4 figure score live this year they could be mascot? :P
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Also slightly off topic but will Warren and Chris actually want to play this? They both merit consideration I agree BUT they will have to skip 2/3 side events which might cost them the player of the year?
I don"t think much can be done about this clash but it does cause some headaches. I still think they way it is done currently is probably best, running it at a different time to all other events can"t be realistic I would not think?
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Owned by Chris.
I"m going into hiding.
WP sir.
However did think you wanted the mascot job??
Rodders - Any1 in contention for POTY would be silly to play for their country at WCOAP, unless of course they aren"t bothered by the added value?!
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Let"s be fair stu, our B team had none of that.
Randomly I think me and Paulie spoke more in Cov than we did at DTD that weekend, Altho that"s prob cuz he didn"t like me much :)
Disagree...I think we had loads.
True we didn"t all know each other but we meshed really well IMO...and that"s the point.
As for speaking, we had more time in Coventry....at DTD I was busy going deep. :)
Agree with Paulie here, i thought it went well.
IMO people who arent active in the community wont get a chance as the people who get picked to captain APAT are (and always should be) regular players with a pedigree in APAT events. If someone they know, and have a knowledge of their games applies then they stand more of a chance of getting picked than someone who people barely know, who dont take the time to put in a high quality application (as Steve about mine for the worlds, it spanned 3 messages!!) and who dont seem interested in the APAT community to a high degree, if that makes sense??
I know that probably sounds elitist and all that, but its a way of getting to know people better and improving the APAT community and having people be more involved day to day.
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Haha my application was about 3 lines
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I"ve seen one or two of these in my time, and even played in the first one in Brighton (That"s before there were good players to select from for a team).
The team events are a unique few days, which until you play in one, it is quite difficult to explain. The reality of the situation is that whoever is selected as captain for whichever country puts together the team that they think can win it.
The winning team will need to play consistently well across the two days, and also get a decent chunk of luck. They won"t have been the only team to have played consistently well on the day, and I would argue that those players selected could easily have been replaced by plenty of other worthy APATers who would probably have turned up and played consistently well also.
It"s easy to talk about team spirit when as a team, you are up there with something to play for. If you are out of the running, I don"t blame players for getting distracted. It"s not been your year, and you just want to get on with playing some other poker.
I don"t claim to see enough of any APATers to be able to say one rates above another when it comes to Sit "n" Go"s, or Pot Limit Omaha, or the ability to grind a stack home. So it comes down to a game of opinions on team selection based on what knowledge you have. And it"s tough.
Things I do feel would be good for the events going forward are :-
- No country should EVER have more than one team in one of these events
- Where possible, captains should change each year
- Captains should look to try and introduce at least one "new cap" at each event
- Perhaps allocate the prizepool to each phase, so keeping interest up for all
- There should be a players welcome party with a bar ;D
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Discussing team selection criteria is totally futile imho, firstly, it is largely only relevant to England Captains who have both the luxury of choice and the headache of having to disappoint many excellent players.
Secondly, given the breath of choice, the limited opportunity to get to know and correctly evaluate a players attributes, it"s inevitable that Captains will end up selecting from amongst the players they know best.
I"ve always felt that it is impossible for England Captains to have enough insight into such a large number of available players who are spread far and wide.
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- There should be a players welcome party with a bar ;D
My name is Paulie...and I approve this message.
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I"d like to see the format changed.
I"d like to see 4/5 per team, and multiple disciplines.
PLO, NLH, Stud, Razz, HU, HORSE, 6 max
Captains then have to pick the best poker players from their countries and not friends/mates etc
Captains rank their players on each discipline and are matched vs other countries players of the same ranking.
Ie Carl is England"s #1 PLO player. His sng features all the #1 ranks in.
This would also allow captains to actually play tactically, instead of just giving a player a number and it"s pot luck.
I"d also like to see the seat draw being more random. At the euros I had England A on my left in all but 1 sng. That was a ball ache and just bad for game play for all.
Completely agree with all of this. Maybe not HORSE though, 6 SNG"s - NLH, LHE, PLO, PLO8, Stud & Stud 8. No MTT and no HU for the medals.
If we are going to have HU for the medals then we really need 5 (or any odd number) as means there can"t be a draw!
Was gonna make a massive long post on selection but too tired now...so to sum it up briefly:
- Champions should always be able to defend
- I like the idea of the winning country being allowed to submit 2 teams if they wish to do so
- Countries should rotate Captains every year if possible
- All countries should endeavour to have one "uncapped" player in their team
Oh, and please, if possible, give the World Team Championships their own days which don"t clash with side events!
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Also slightly off topic but will Warren and Chris actually want to play this? They both merit consideration I agree BUT they will have to skip 2/3 side events which might cost them the player of the year?
I don"t think much can be done about this clash but it does cause some headaches. I still think they way it is done currently is probably best, running it at a different time to all other events can"t be realistic I would not think?
Fraid this is indeed the case, whilst i would love to play if selected for a team, the simple fact that i would have to miss side events counts me out.
Hence my post suggestion on page 1 re allowing a team to submit and contribute to a separate prize pool (Im not for a moment suggesting that the proper team event should be cancelled, but it would allow other players to enjoy the team format who cant play or would not be selected)
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Can i also point out that picking a team is not just about picking the best players... its about picking a TEAM.
When i have picked teams i have gone for a blend of people i know would get on and support each other in the event, which helps each individual.
When we won the Worlds, it was because we stuck together as a team. We all railed each player when we were out. We didnt just clear off and talk to our mates. I know from talking to the guys that this made a massive difference to each and every one of us at some point during the tournament. Whether it was me in my Omaha SNG on day 2, or Carl in the last NLHE SNG or Tony in his headsup match. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
Just throwing a group of randoms together is not a - Going to make a winning team or b - make the experience enjoyable for all concerned.
I don"t like this post at all. Smacks of cliquism and picking your mates. There is no reason why a team who don"t know each other (randoms, if you like) could not perform as a team just as well as people who do.
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I would just select the Eng, Scot, Ire & Welsh teams based totally on rankings. That way, players who have performed well but are not so well known would get their place rather than people who are known or have done it before or are picked on the nebulous basis that they are considered likely to gel with the others as a team. And people who get picked a lot for the three non-English teams wouldn"t have a right to a place, but would have to perform and justify it every time.
This would mean that the previous winning individuals would not so-called "defend". There may an example somewhere, but I can"t think of another competitive activity where the previous team is selected en-masse, because they won the last time, ahead of the currently better-performing players.
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I am surprised at just how many people have posted that the team event should not overlap with the WCOAP sides. I knew there was some dislike for this, but I didn"t realize it was so widespread. No surprise that I totally agree.
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I would just select the Eng, Scot, Ire & Welsh teams based totally on rankings. That way, players who have performed well but are not so well known would get their place rather than people who are known or have done it before or are picked on the nebulous basis that they are considered likely to gel with the others as a team. And people who get picked a lot for the three non-English teams wouldn"t have a right to a place, but would have to perform and justify it every time.
I would like to agree with John"s post, I have always advocated that team selection should be based on rankings to avoid any of the criticisms of the current system, such as the one"s mentioned in some posts on this thread. If this system was set in stone we could forego the annual debate of the best way to select each team and everyone would have an equal chance of making their national team and they would be aware of the qualifying cut off dates at the start of the season.
For example you could take the points from all ranking events on a calendar year so the top 4/5 players at the 31st December would be in line to play in the next years team events. There are numerous permutations as to how the rankings cut off could be applied, but that"s for another debate, again once it is set in stone everyone starts on a level playing field and would know what they need to achieve to make the team.
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I would just select the Eng, Scot, Ire & Welsh teams based totally on rankings. That way, players who have performed well but are not so well known would get their place rather than people who are known or have done it before or are picked on the nebulous basis that they are considered likely to gel with the others as a team. And people who get picked a lot for the three non-English teams wouldn"t have a right to a place, but would have to perform and justify it every time.
I would like to agree with John"s post, I have always advocated that team selection should be based on rankings to avoid any of the criticisms of the current system, such as the one"s mentioned in some posts on this thread. If this system was set in stone we could forego the annual debate of the best way to select each team and everyone would have an equal chance of making their national team and they would be aware of the qualifying cut off dates at the start of the season.
For example you could take the points from all ranking events on a calendar year so the top 4/5 players at the 31st December would be in line to play in the next years team events. There are numerous permutations as to how the rankings cut off could be applied, but that"s for another debate, again once it is set in stone everyone starts on a level playing field and would know what they need to achieve to make the team.
The only issue I have with this is that as described above, the current No.1 English player in the rankings has publicly declared that he does not want to play the Team Event as he wants to win the rankings - so he needs to play the side events.
Also, thinking about it, as there are so many more English players, they are disadvantaged. As an example, Rodders could come 7th in one event and score enough points to qualify for Wales. I could do the same and would be nowhere near qualifying for England.
There will never be a perfect way to select the teams. I favour a mixture - 1 captain chosen by Des" team. He then has 2 personal choices and offers the other 2 slots to the first 2 in the rankings for his country. If any of those two turn him down, he has to offer to the next two in the rankings. If they also turn him down - captain"s choice.
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There is lots of mentions from England players about how many medals they have won representing England prior.
If youve won 3 medals, as an England player, surely thats time to move aside.
We are in Season 7 and have lots of good players, surely its time to let other players have a stab in the dark.
I would be interested to see numbers on how many different players have represented England in Homes, Euros and Worlds and how many times each of them have played. Also how many medals they have won doing so.
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I would just select the Eng, Scot, Ire & Welsh teams based totally on rankings. That way, players who have performed well but are not so well known would get their place rather than people who are known or have done it before or are picked on the nebulous basis that they are considered likely to gel with the others as a team. And people who get picked a lot for the three non-English teams wouldn"t have a right to a place, but would have to perform and justify it every time.
I would like to agree with John"s post, I have always advocated that team selection should be based on rankings to avoid any of the criticisms of the current system, such as the one"s mentioned in some posts on this thread. If this system was set in stone we could forego the annual debate of the best way to select each team and everyone would have an equal chance of making their national team and they would be aware of the qualifying cut off dates at the start of the season.
For example you could take the points from all ranking events on a calendar year so the top 4/5 players at the 31st December would be in line to play in the next years team events. There are numerous permutations as to how the rankings cut off could be applied, but that"s for another debate, again once it is set in stone everyone starts on a level playing field and would know what they need to achieve to make the team.
The only issue I have with this is that as described above, the current No.1 English player in the rankings has publicly declared that he does not want to play the Team Event as he wants to win the rankings - so he needs to play the side events.
Also, thinking about it, as there are so many more English players, they are disadvantaged. As an example, Rodders could come 7th in one event and score enough points to qualify for Wales. I could do the same and would be nowhere near qualifying for England.
There will never be a perfect way to select the teams. I favour a mixture - 1 captain chosen by Des" team. He then has 2 personal choices and offers the other 2 slots to the first 2 in the rankings for his country. If any of those two turn him down, he has to offer to the next two in the rankings. If they also turn him down - captain"s choice.
In paragraph 3, you provide the answer to your objection in paragraph 1. Just offer it down the list if someone doesn"t want to play.
Can"t do anything about your para 2 objection. There are more English players. The Welsh team is only open to people from Wales.
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There may an example somewhere, but I can"t think of another competitive activity where the previous team is selected en-masse, because they won the last time, ahead of the currently better-performing players.
The idea of the same individuals defending their APAT team title is one I happen to agree with... but I can also understand why denying a huge number of English players the opportunity to participate in a WCOAP for two whole years is going to cause irritation.
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I agree with JMs selection policy, that would reward the players who are playing well and support APAT. If the most highly placed players do not wish to play, they can just move aside and pick the next player in the table.
Very simple IMO, and gets away from the same old faces argument, unless those same old faces get in on merit :)
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I like the concept of qualification through rankings, if only to remove all the frustrations about criticism of team selections, and to provide a clean and transparent process. It gives those people who believe they will never get picked a chance to earn their place.
However, as said above, this only works if the team event does not clash with the sides. As also said above, as a system, it would be totally unfair to the England player pool, many of whom might significantly out-perform Welsh, Irish, or Scottish players over the course of the season, but due to the sheer volume, they wouldn"t get a place.
Something not mentioned above is the "exclusivity" within the rankings system in terms of opportunity. Some of the ranking events are not open to all. OK, hypothetically they are open, however some people cannot fund trips to Prague, Vegas (or even Ireland) to play those ranking events, hence those with deepest pockets would have an advantage at the rankings and therefore a headstart toward country selection.
Lastly, by setting the rankings as a selection policy, we would create an un-level playing field within the competition, ie not all teams have 4/5 players in the rankings, and therefore have free selection opportunity. Not sure if this makes a difference ultimately when the competition is played, however it is disparity within the process, and potentially an advantage to one or the other.
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If you are in the Top 5 or so in the rankings, youd be mental to play in the Team Event (unless, of course, you dont want to win player of the year)
Lots of juicy side events, with depleated fields (due to the Team Event Running)
I think that a seperate w/e for the World Team Event should be organised that is just centered around the Teams so that all the players can also play all sides at the Worlds. Maybe a logistical nightmare, but would be nice to see.
I was also part of the convo at DTD with Des, Mark, Leigh, Chris and Dave.
Running a "Team" element, open to all, at the Worlds is a great idea.
Teams are submitted, with a minimum of 5, max of 10.
You name your selected "4" for each side event, and these are the only players that can score points.
People can make there own teams, from friends and encourage more newbies to come.
Teams pay a flat entry fee
Sounds awesome
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There may an example somewhere, but I can"t think of another competitive activity where the previous team is selected en-masse, because they won the last time, ahead of the currently better-performing players.
The idea of the same individuals defending their APAT team title is one I happen to agree with... but I can also understand why denying a huge number of English players the opportunity to participate in a WCOAP for two whole years is going to cause irritation.
It"s only really likely to be an issue if an England team wins. Most other countries that have won team events in the past have been able to defend with the same players, simply because there are no other players available (France, Poland, etc come to mind). The fact that England won it this year for the first time is probably why this topic is only being discussed now for the first time.
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There may an example somewhere, but I can"t think of another competitive activity where the previous team is selected en-masse, because they won the last time, ahead of the currently better-performing players.
The idea of the same individuals defending their APAT team title is one I happen to agree with... but I can also understand why denying a huge number of English players the opportunity to participate in a WCOAP for two whole years is going to cause irritation.
It"s only really likely to be an issue if an England team wins. Most other countries that have won team events in the past have been able to defend with the same players, simply because there are no other players available (France, Poland, etc come to mind). The fact that England won it this year for the first time is probably why this topic is only being discussed now for the first time.
No argument from me, but it doesn"t make the issue any less relevant.
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There may an example somewhere, but I can"t think of another competitive activity where the previous team is selected en-masse, because they won the last time, ahead of the currently better-performing players.
The idea of the same individuals defending their APAT team title is one I happen to agree with... but I can also understand why denying a huge number of English players the opportunity to participate in a WCOAP for two whole years is going to cause irritation.
It"s only really likely to be an issue if an England team wins. Most other countries that have won team events in the past have been able to defend with the same players, simply because there are no other players available (France, Poland, etc come to mind). The fact that England won it this year for the first time is probably why this topic is only being discussed now for the first time.
It happened with Wales in 2010 and 2011.
At that time you could easily have picked a second Welsh team who would have been competitive, people not selected that year who were available at the time included myself (number 1 ranked live player), Ben Young (World Champion and double gold medalist), Warren Jones (Champion of Champions and number one online player), Darren Shallis (3 final tables that season and 6 overall and gold medalist) and Gary Phillips (numerous deep runs in WCOAP), there were a number of others as well, so the situation has most definitely occurred before.
All of the community from Wales were 100% behind the re-selection of that team though (as far as I know) as, it just seemed right the champions should get to defend. This situation seems to be almost the same.
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All of the community from Wales were 100% behind the re-selection of that team though (as far as I know) as, it just seemed right the champions should get to defend. This situation seems to be almost the same.
Big difference - that was Wales. We"re talking about England now, and we English have it in our very nature to not celebrate success, or to find positivity where there is an opportunity to find negativity instead.
It"s the taking part that counts you know, old chap!
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There is lots of mentions from England players about how many medals they have won representing England prior.
If youve won 3 medals, as an England player, surely thats time to move aside.
We are in Season 7 and have lots of good players, surely its time to let other players have a stab in the dark.
I would be interested to see numbers on how many different players have represented England in Homes, Euros and Worlds and how many times each of them have played. Also how many medals they have won doing so.
I have had a basic look at this. Ignored the home internationals as they provided multiple teams for the home nations and would have skewed the data.
As far as I can tell, we have had 4 European Team Championships and 3 World Team Championships, but without a true archive I can only go by Live Update threads!
The results were as follows (caps, not medals) with all players not in bold receiving their only cap.
Asa McGrath
Steve Redfern - 4
Carl Pilgrim - 2
Tony Trippier - 3
Stuart Ward - 2
Rob Swindells
James Barber
George Bedi
Brian Yates - 2
Paul Haycock - 2
Charles Mason
John Miller
Neil Blatchley
Simon Auckland
Linda Iwaniak
Bob Malin
Steve Stringer
Richard Baker - 2
Alan Armitage
Dan Patterson
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So when u won the HN individuals, your didn"t get invited to Euros/Worlds??
I"d have no probs with England retaining x amount of the team, whilst the lowest 2 scorers get dropped and have to reapply with the rest.
Yea it"s a team game, but cut the chase.... Points make prizes, and the lowest scorers have directly contributed less than the others.
Get rid off the dead wood, and bring in new players.
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For the record, the team I selected for 2013 WCOAP included the top ranked players in the live rankings (Carl), the online rankings (Asa), and the online league (Tony).
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For the record, the team I selected for 2013 WCOAP included the top ranked players in the live rankings (Carl), the online rankings (Asa), and the online league (Tony).
True. The basic data is exactly that, basic. And I might have missed some because all I could find was World Team Championships from Season 4 to 6 and European Team Championships from Seasons 2, 3, 6 and 7.
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Surely the most important thing here is asking the question "Will England bring back the white team jackets, and if it means selecting Brian Yates again, then this SHOULD happen"
Have you still got yours Steve ?
I"ve never been able to find a photo of the pair of you in them, but they were a superb effort on Brian"s part, and what the event should be about. The pride and passion of playing for your country.
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If the WCOAP 2014 is reduced to 4 players per team, then this whole conversation is moot for this year.
If it stays with the 5 player team format, then the conversation still applies. To be clear on this though, as always I"m happy to go with the consensus. My own opinion is that the competition should be made up of one team per country, plus the defending champion team, IF that team wishes to play again as a whole and unchanged team, and IF the country in question is able to field two teams. OK it may be that only England, and possibly Scotland, would see the upside of this due to player pool sizes, however that doesn"t mean that the idea is necessarily a bad one.
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After several conversations with IrishTom in Prague i was under the impression that the team format was NOT going to be changed for the WCOAP and the teams would be made up of 4. There may have been an option to let the defending England team play (which would still mean dropping an original member) and then another England Team compete but that was NOT confirmed.
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After several conversations with IrishTom in Prague i was under the impression that the team format was NOT going to be changed for the WCOAP and the teams would be made up of 4. There may have been an option to let the defending England team play and then another England Team compete but that was NOT confirmed.
No need to ruin a good thread debate :D
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Haha sorry Leigh, I"ll shut up an let everyone continue to toot their own horns!! ;D
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Haha sorry Leigh, I"ll shut up an let everyone continue to toot their own horns!! ;D
No problem.
Anyway, back to these England team jackets.
Does anyone have a photo ?
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I really want a Portugal jacket
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If you are in the Top 5 or so in the rankings, youd be mental to play in the Team Event (unless, of course, you dont want to win player of the year)
Lots of juicy side events, with depleated fields (due to the Team Event Running)
I think that a seperate w/e for the World Team Event should be organised that is just centered around the Teams so that all the players can also play all sides at the Worlds. Maybe a logistical nightmare, but would be nice to see.
I was also part of the convo at DTD with Des, Mark, Leigh, Chris and Dave.
Running a "Team" element, open to all, at the Worlds is a great idea.
Teams are submitted, with a minimum of 5, max of 10.
You name your selected "4" for each side event, and these are the only players that can score points.
People can make there own teams, from friends and encourage more newbies to come.
Teams pay a flat entry fee
Sounds awesome
+10000000
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After several conversations with IrishTom in Prague i was under the impression that the team format was NOT going to be changed for the WCOAP and the teams would be made up of 4.
....but, if the team format is 4 players per team, then that IS a change as prior events have all been 5 players per team.
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Running a "Team" element, open to all, at the Worlds is a great idea.
Teams are submitted, with a minimum of 5, max of 10.
You name your selected "4" for each side event, and these are the only players that can score points.
People can make there own teams, from friends and encourage more newbies to come.
Teams pay a flat entry fee
Isn"t this just an extension / slight alteration to the "Forum" Team Championships format which will be in held in Stoke?
The ECOAP / WCOAP Team events are, and should be, teams representing their countries.
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After several conversations with IrishTom in Prague i was under the impression that the team format was NOT going to be changed for the WCOAP and the teams would be made up of 4.
....but, if the team format is 4 players per team, then that IS a change as prior events have all been 5 players per team.
IIRC, this was changed for S6 because of the introduction of HU matches for the medals at the end of the 2 days.
From the thread last week, these appear to have been abandoned so the teams have gone back to 4 players.
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After several conversations with IrishTom in Prague i was under the impression that the team format was NOT going to be changed for the WCOAP and the teams would be made up of 4.
....but, if the team format is 4 players per team, then that IS a change as prior events have all been 5 players per team.
Duffi means (I think) that now that the decision has been made to reduce the team size to 4...that decision is not going to be changed.
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Running a "Team" element, open to all, at the Worlds is a great idea.
Teams are submitted, with a minimum of 5, max of 10.
You name your selected "4" for each side event, and these are the only players that can score points.
People can make there own teams, from friends and encourage more newbies to come.
Teams pay a flat entry fee
Isn"t this just an extension / slight alteration to the "Forum" Team Championships format which will be in held in Stoke?
The ECOAP / WCOAP Team events are, and should be, teams representing their countries.
There was never any suggestion that the usual ECOAP / WCOAP shouldn"t remain the same. This format would just allow others to play as part of a team. Not suggesting it has the prestige of internationals, but it would be nice to give others the opportunity to be part of a team...
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I love the heads up matches for the medals.
I think it adds so much tension and emotion to the end of the event for those involved.
It first happened by absolute chance in Luton, when Poland and France were tied on points, but I think when APAT have run them for more recent events, they have been superb to watch.
Heads Up is just the purest form on the game, and what a way to decide things.
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Haha sorry Leigh, I"ll shut up an let everyone continue to toot their own horns!! ;D
No problem.
Anyway, back to these England team jackets.
Does anyone have a photo ?
(http://www.the4-50s.com/Gallery0809/4-50s.jpg)
Miller, Blatchley, Redfern, Yates.
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I love the heads up matches for the medals.
I think it adds so much tension and emotion to the end of the event for those involved.
It first happened by absolute chance in Luton, when Poland and France were tied on points, but I think when APAT have run them for more recent events, they have been superb to watch.
Heads Up is just the purest form on the game, and what a way to decide things.
Playing for two long days across many events, to have the final prize decided by a potential single hand cooler or coin flip - I hate the HU medal matches.
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I love the heads up matches for the medals.
I think it adds so much tension and emotion to the end of the event for those involved.
It first happened by absolute chance in Luton, when Poland and France were tied on points, but I think when APAT have run them for more recent events, they have been superb to watch.
Heads Up is just the purest form on the game, and what a way to decide things.
Playing for two long days across many events, to have the final prize decided by a potential single hand cooler or coin flip - I hate the HU medal matches.
^^^^+1^^^^
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TBH i think the format of the Forum Game requires more skill than the International Games.
An MTT requires constant thought process as factors and dynamics change so quickly with stack sizes, players left in your team players left in other teams, seat draws etc.
The international events, being shallow sngs including turbos basically come down to "who flips best" once the first few blind levels are through.
The point allocations available also means the latter stages completely lose the poker in them.
Then you have the heads up matches as a BO1?
Maybe if the HU were one game where each player gets a lammer, then that would help. But again, these are just who flips best as well.
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I love the heads up matches for the medals.
I think it adds so much tension and emotion to the end of the event for those involved.
It first happened by absolute chance in Luton, when Poland and France were tied on points, but I think when APAT have run them for more recent events, they have been superb to watch.
Heads Up is just the purest form on the game, and what a way to decide things.
Playing for two long days across many events, to have the final prize decided by a potential single hand cooler or coin flip - I hate the HU medal matches.
Not often I agree with Steve :)...but this is definitely one of those occasions.
Sure the HU matches add excitement for the crowd but they do nothing for a team that may have walked all over the opposition in every other event only to have the gold ripped from their grasp by what could be a single hand.
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I love the heads up matches for the medals.
I think it adds so much tension and emotion to the end of the event for those involved.
It first happened by absolute chance in Luton, when Poland and France were tied on points, but I think when APAT have run them for more recent events, they have been superb to watch.
Heads Up is just the purest form on the game, and what a way to decide things.
Playing for two long days across many events, to have the final prize decided by a potential single hand cooler or coin flip - I hate the HU medal matches.
Not often I agree with Steve :)...but this is definitely one of those occasions.
Sure the HU matches add excitement for the crowd but they do nothing for a team that may have walked all over the opposition in every other event only to have the gold ripped from their grasp by what could be a single hand.
Wouldn"t they still win 4-1?
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Like we did with the Bronze in the HIs
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Been a great discussion so far, have to agree with what a lot of members have already stated about selection process..
100% that players who have topped rankings for their country gets first pick, if the player wants to decline the invitation and concentrate on POTY then it"s their choice..
As Steve pointed out Asa, Tony and myself where rewarded with a slot because of just this fact.
Like the idea that the country who wins can choose to enter a separate squad and invite the reigning champions to return and defend their title. I realise that England and Scotland can probably field 2 teams if this was allowed due to player pool, but if say Italy, Ireland won they would probably field the same team that one previously anyways.
Also just for a idea, like the thought of having gold stars on shirts of nations who have won, a little like world cup shirts ;D
As DuffyI mentioned we chatted to Tom in Prague, and he was telling us about how they invite the reigning champs back in a season tourney in the LPPL, and that seems to work just fine.
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as a system, it would be totally unfair to the England player pool, many of whom might significantly out-perform Welsh, Irish, or Scottish players over the course of the season, but due to the sheer volume, they wouldn"t get a place.
Are you trying to make a point that "having many players who significantly out-perform Welsh, Irish, or Scottish players yet can"t get in your team" is somehow a disadvantage?
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Like the idea that the country who wins can choose to enter a separate squad and invite the reigning champions to return and defend their title.
If you were to hear that Spain in 2014 world cup and New Zealand in 2015 Rugby world cup would both be bringing two separate teams to contest these prestige events,
would you consider that a positive change?
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Like the idea that the country who wins can choose to enter a separate squad and invite the reigning champions to return and defend their title.
If you were to hear that Spain in 2014 world cup and New Zealand in 2015 Rugby world cup would both be bringing two separate teams to contest these prestige events,
would you consider that a positive change?
Comparing APAT/LPPL to the World cup and Rugby World cup may be a little "extreme".. But I know in other amateur sports like Pool, and darts this concept works so I consider this a positive change yes.
Personally wouldn"t bother me, infact I would relish the opportunity to try and dethrone the reigning champs especially if they where Scottish ;D ...
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Running a "Team" element, open to all, at the Worlds is a great idea.
Teams are submitted, with a minimum of 5, max of 10.
You name your selected "4" for each side event, and these are the only players that can score points.
People can make there own teams, from friends and encourage more newbies to come.
Teams pay a flat entry fee
Isn"t this just an extension / slight alteration to the "Forum" Team Championships format which will be in held in Stoke?
The ECOAP / WCOAP Team events are, and should be, teams representing their countries.
Was just offering this an addition, not a replacement. Trying to find was to encourage more newbies to get involved in the festival.
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Running a "Team" element, open to all, at the Worlds is a great idea.
Teams are submitted, with a minimum of 5, max of 10.
You name your selected "4" for each side event, and these are the only players that can score points.
People can make there own teams, from friends and encourage more newbies to come.
Teams pay a flat entry fee
Isn"t this just an extension / slight alteration to the "Forum" Team Championships format which will be in held in Stoke?
The ECOAP / WCOAP Team events are, and should be, teams representing their countries.
Was just offering this an addition, not a replacement. Trying to find was to encourage more newbies to get involved in the festival.
I understand that but some people are already complaining about the number of team events and this would be yet another.
I don"t think it"s a bad idea, in fact I would prefer it to the Forum event, but it isn"t the subject of this thread.
By all means suggest it to IrishTom, if you don"t, I will file off the serial numbers and claim the idea as my own.
Oh, wait! :-)
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Running a "Team" element, open to all, at the Worlds is a great idea.
Teams are submitted, with a minimum of 5, max of 10.
You name your selected "4" for each side event, and these are the only players that can score points.
People can make there own teams, from friends and encourage more newbies to come.
Teams pay a flat entry fee
Isn"t this just an extension / slight alteration to the "Forum" Team Championships format which will be in held in Stoke?
The ECOAP / WCOAP Team events are, and should be, teams representing their countries.
Was just offering this an addition, not a replacement. Trying to find was to encourage more newbies to get involved in the festival.
I understand that but some people are already complaining about the number of team events and this would be yet another.
I don"t think it"s a bad idea, in fact I would prefer it to the Forum event, but it isn"t the subject of this thread.
By all means suggest it to IrishTom, if you don"t, I will file off the serial numbers and claim the idea as my own.
Oh, wait! :-)
I quite agree with you
May post a seperate thread to bat ideas from one another, as think this would increase footfall to the WCOAPs and make it even more awesome,
Seems to work for the Goliath!!
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Comparing APAT/LPPL to the World cup and Rugby World cup may be a little "extreme".. But I know in other amateur sports like Pool, and darts this concept works so I consider this a positive change yes.
It is an extreme comparison yes ;D
I just don"t think the second team idea fits long term with most of the participating teams resources.
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Like the idea that the country who wins can choose to enter a separate squad and invite the reigning champions to return and defend their title.
If you were to hear that Spain in 2014 world cup and New Zealand in 2015 Rugby world cup would both be bringing two separate teams to contest these prestige events,
would you consider that a positive change?
Comparing APAT/LPPL to the World cup and Rugby World cup may be a little "extreme".. But I know in other amateur sports like Pool, and darts this concept works so I consider this a positive change yes.
Personally wouldn"t bother me, infact I would relish the opportunity to try and dethrone the reigning champs especially if they where Scottish ;D ...
So many digs at us kilted warriors Carl.i.am hahaha
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Like the idea that the country who wins can choose to enter a separate squad and invite the reigning champions to return and defend their title.
If you were to hear that Spain in 2014 world cup and New Zealand in 2015 Rugby world cup would both be bringing two separate teams to contest these prestige events,
would you consider that a positive change?
Comparing APAT/LPPL to the World cup and Rugby World cup may be a little "extreme".. But I know in other amateur sports like Pool, and darts this concept works so I consider this a positive change yes.
Personally wouldn"t bother me, infact I would relish the opportunity to try and dethrone the reigning champs especially if they where Scottish ;D ...
So many digs at us kilted warriors Carl.i.am hahaha
Men in skirts..........tomato/tomato ;)
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
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I"m pretty sure if there wasn"t added value it would be a different decision. Could the worlds team tournament ever become the finale of the season ? Maybe a festival around it but without ranking points awarded for them
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
But this isnt football.
Footballers get paid per appearance
Poker players have to pay for appearance, and then have to earn they "pay" by going deep.
Play 1x comp with 3 others contributing to your result. Small prizepools and turbo sngs. High Varience and time consuming.
or Play the whole festival with bigger prize pools, and where you have a greater edge and expected ROI?
I can see why some would like to play for their country, i have recently had the opportunity, but if poker is part of your income, then you can see why some would choose not to play.
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
But this isnt football.
Footballers get paid per appearance
Poker players have to pay for appearance, and then have to earn they "pay" by going deep.
Play 1x comp with 3 others contributing to your result. Small prizepools and turbo sngs. High Varience and time consuming.
or Play the whole festival with bigger prize pools, and where you have a greater edge and expected ROI?
I can see why some would like to play for their country, i have recently had the opportunity, but if poker is part of your income, then you can see why some would choose not to play.
Think at the end of the day it"s a personal choice.
Winning gold for England last year completely outshone winning my previous 2 national titles.
The money wasn"t a thought, in fact I would even play if there was NO money to play for and only the pride.
If a team had to pay a minimal fee each to cover dealer costs etc and have no prize money I would even be fine with that.
Watched the Ceasars Cup earlier this year, and there was no prize money in the pot I believe just pride, didn"t stop Sam Trickett, and his team trying their hardest to conquer the rest of the world :D
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
Very well put mate.
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
Very well put mate.
Shame on me indeed, although the fact that it clearly means waaaay more to others i would of thought people would be thankful i would have to decline playing for England (The fact that im in a real tough battle at the top of the poty with a great player for a vegas package presumably to you is irrelevant?)
Finally the worlds offer the one opportunity to play a variety of games i would never otherwise get to play (Only because of APAT i have ever played stud and razz)
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
But this isnt football.
Footballers get paid per appearance
Poker players have to pay for appearance, and then have to earn they "pay" by going deep.
Play 1x comp with 3 others contributing to your result. Small prizepools and turbo sngs. High Varience and time consuming.
or Play the whole festival with bigger prize pools, and where you have a greater edge and expected ROI?
I can see why some would like to play for their country, i have recently had the opportunity, but if poker is part of your income, then you can see why some would choose not to play.
does not matter what sport or game it is. your countries shirt means more than just money. about 25% of my income comes from poker but i would pay with no chance of prize money to pull on the blue shirt so no i do not get where you are coming from.
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[
Winning gold for England last year completely outshone winning my previous 2 national titles.
The money wasn"t a thought, in fact I would even play if there was NO money to play for and only the pride.
If a team had to pay a minimal fee each to cover dealer costs etc and have no prize money I would even be fine with that.
Watched the Ceasars Cup earlier this year, and there was no prize money in the pot I believe just pride, didn"t stop Sam Trickett, and his team trying their hardest to conquer the rest of the world :D
and this is how it should be, pride in the shirt. however you could not pay me to play for england.
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
But this isnt football.
Footballers get paid per appearance
Poker players have to pay for appearance, and then have to earn they "pay" by going deep.
Play 1x comp with 3 others contributing to your result. Small prizepools and turbo sngs. High Varience and time consuming.
or Play the whole festival with bigger prize pools, and where you have a greater edge and expected ROI?
I can see why some would like to play for their country, i have recently had the opportunity, but if poker is part of your income, then you can see why some would choose not to play.
does not matter what sport or game it is. your countries shirt means more than just money. about 25% of my income comes from poker but i would pay with no chance of prize money to pull on the blue shirt so no i do not get where you are coming from.
Im afraid your comparison is so flawed! Players who representing their country in a variety of sports do so because they are the best, and presumably have trained/played their whole life in order to reach as high a level as possible.
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
But this isnt football.
Footballers get paid per appearance
Poker players have to pay for appearance, and then have to earn they "pay" by going deep.
Play 1x comp with 3 others contributing to your result. Small prizepools and turbo sngs. High Varience and time consuming.
or Play the whole festival with bigger prize pools, and where you have a greater edge and expected ROI?
I can see why some would like to play for their country, i have recently had the opportunity, but if poker is part of your income, then you can see why some would choose not to play.
does not matter what sport or game it is. your countries shirt means more than just money. about 25% of my income comes from poker but i would pay with no chance of prize money to pull on the blue shirt so no i do not get where you are coming from.
I have played for my country in sports outside of poker also.
Very proud to wear the shirt with the best players from England, against the best players in the world. I had to qualify for that opportunity. I wasnt just selected.
Difference is, with Amateur poker, is that no-one has qualified and there isnt a Team Manager that knows all the players inside out. Also, as Chris says, the scheduling can be detrimental. He is well within his rights to turn down an invite, if he feels its detrimental to his chance of winning POTY and Vegas Package.
Surely POTY is the highest accolade that you can win in the season? Being the most consistant performer as an individual, and the best player on the tour for that year. Surely thats a bigger achievement than being selected for Country?
If Chris wins the rankings, he should be invited next year when nothing is on the line?
I was chuffed to be picked for England for the Homes, and really gutted after my performance at DTD to not get reselcted for Euros in Prague. Also wanted to be featured in the Worlds set up, but as we know that prob wont happen.
However, if i was in the top 3 of the POTY rankings, id step aside and let someone else play for England.
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
Very well put mate.
Shame on me indeed, although the fact that it clearly means waaaay more to others i would of thought people would be thankful i would have to decline playing for England (The fact that im in a real tough battle at the top of the poty with a great player for a vegas package presumably to you is irrelevant?)
Finally the worlds offer the one opportunity to play a variety of games i would never otherwise get to play (Only because of APAT i have ever played stud and razz)
no shame on you chris everybody makes choices based on there own situation, i wish you the best of luck in ur quest for poty and it will be a nail biting finish to season 7, it is englands loss that players of your calibre are not available for selection, but like the other post carls & herbies differ is that they put there country 1st which is there choice as it was my choice in august when the team event coincided with my 40th wedding anniversary plans and i put ireland team ahead of it, i like you love the stud tournament but i have chosen to forego it in order to play in the team event,
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Thread has gone slightly off original post ;D..
But will be interesting as Kevin said regarding the points race, Warren is an automatic pick for the Wales squad IMO and always plays if given the chance.
Now saying if, just if he did win the POTY I know Warren wouldn"t go to Vegas as he has a fear of flying so Chris might aswell play for England if he gets asked ;D, would take someone on a complete heater over he festival to prehaps catch you 2 guys up.
Think Des should just put this to rest and allow 5 player teams again ;D ;D and Warren and Chris can duke it out amongst themselves for bragging rights.
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would take someone on a complete heater over the festival to perhaps catch you 2 guys up.
Hello ;D
Plenty of points still up for grabs both live and online for others to get themselves in the mix.
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would take someone on a complete heater over the festival to perhaps catch you 2 guys up.
Hello ;D
Plenty of points still up for grabs both live and online for others to get themselves in the mix.
You coming out of retirement to play ;D ?
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would take someone on a complete heater over the festival to perhaps catch you 2 guys up.
Hello ;D
Plenty of points still up for grabs both live and online for others to get themselves in the mix.
You coming out of retirement to play ;D ?
I might do, if details ever get announced ;)
My 2014 poker diary is filling up fast ;D
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would take someone on a complete heater over the festival to perhaps catch you 2 guys up.
Hello ;D
Plenty of points still up for grabs both live and online for others to get themselves in the mix.
Working on it.
Batman > Robin after all.
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would take someone on a complete heater over the festival to perhaps catch you 2 guys up.
Hello ;D
Plenty of points still up for grabs both live and online for others to get themselves in the mix.
Working on it.
Batman > Robin after all.
gets a weekend 3rd in the online mtt and starts chirping...kapoww
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would take someone on a complete heater over the festival to perhaps catch you 2 guys up.
Hello ;D
Plenty of points still up for grabs both live and online for others to get themselves in the mix.
Working on it.
Batman > Robin after all.
gets a weekend 3rd in the online mtt and starts chirping...kapoww
With your chips too. Boom.
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FWIW too i really don"t see at least for the home nations why a qualification series of tournaments or qualification for the team by POTY points would be such a bad idea and then a captain selected from within or a non playing captain selected.
Maybe a series of ten tournaments online with the top players selected however this would be slightly strange as it"s a live tournament :\
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having looked at all the comments on this, feel i want to have my say. team selection is and has too be the captains choice. to introduce a selection on ranking points is a joke. its like the fa saying the top 11 performing players on ranking or .... and these are the playings going to the world cup.
also a ranking system ignores some issues, like players putting individual events before country. shame on them, do you think a footballer who put himself before country would ever play for said country again?
A ranking system does not allow for players in my situation. when this season dates were announced they were a disaster for me as i am working all but the english champs (which i played). unlike most of you i do not get to select my holidays, i am told when i am off. having said that, i got a phone call from gordon saying he was finding it hard to get a scottish team together and would i play. now for those of you who do not know me. I have in the past had a successful motorcycle racing career, played football to high level and tennis at club level. I have a trophy cabinet bursting with trophies, including a bronze replica from the iom tt races. But just being asked to rep scotland was one of my proudest moments and pulling on that blue jersey well to say i was bursting with pride would be an understatement. As for receiving a bronze in prague, for me the greatest moment ever, including my tt success. so i said yes. i travelled and played in both the home nations and european games. in both these events i was unable to play the main events as i had to return home for work and i would do the same again. country before individual and if you do not think that way shame on you, you do not warrent your countrys shirt. as for me i would sell my soul to the devil for scotland.
Very well put mate.
Shame on me indeed, although the fact that it clearly means waaaay more to others i would of thought people would be thankful i would have to decline playing for England (The fact that im in a real tough battle at the top of the poty with a great player for a vegas package presumably to you is irrelevant?)
Finally the worlds offer the one opportunity to play a variety of games i would never otherwise get to play (Only because of APAT i have ever played stud and razz)
Just to clarify...
If people are battling at the top of rankings then it is their choice to play or not. I was agreeing with the fact that it is an honour to represent my country, but each person has a right to prioritise as they see fit. It certainly wasnt meant as criticism towards anyone on my part.
I DO agree that rankings would be a slightly floored way to pick players, it should be the captains choice as to who plays, its part of being the captain! Also, other variations should be considered for the team events, it would definitely make it more fun.
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Include Razz, Horse, stud etc
Oh and OFC!
Haha
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Don"t really understand why it should be captains picks tbh,
Because it"s the way it"s always been done? Not suggesting rankings is the best way to do it but don"t really think the captain choosing is either.
Was it that leading player for each country in the online league got a place? in an ideal world i think you would have larger teams with players qualifying along with a couple of wild card captain picks ala ryder cup.
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Personally think it"s such a shame that the best players this season are already ruling themselves out as there"s the POTY to play for.
IMO in an ideal world...
There should be an appointed country captain
Team tactics decided by captain
The team event would run separate to any other ranking events making every player available to play.
The top of the online rankings for each country should get picked.
The top of the live rankings for each country should get picked.
The captain could then pick a wild card (or 2 if he/she did not want to play)
This gives incentives to keep playing the APAT online events
Means that captains cannot be accused of just picking their mates.. gets away from "cliques"
Rewards the better players over the season
Rewards the players who have consistanty supported APAT over the season
I would love to see lots of new people getting caps for their counties, rather than the same faces. There"s a lot of players out there who have never had the chance, or probably don"t bother applying as soon as they see who the captain is.
Just my twopenneth x
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Was it that leading player for each country in the online league got a place? in an ideal world i think you would have larger teams with players qualifying along with a couple of wild card captain picks ala ryder cup.
Agree with you Chris, but would only apply to England - none of the other countries have selection issues (apart perhaps from Scotland), and for most it"s about scratching around to try and get people to play. For some, it even comes down to finding someone that qualifies because they might have seen the country in question on a map during a geography lesson at school. ;)
If a process is to be instated, it"s important that it can apply to ALL participating countries. As we saw in the ECOAP 2012, the process mandating that the home countries picked the highest ranked online league player meant that we had teams of 5 playing against non-home countries with teams of 4, and that caused disparity (and potential for ill feeling at times with players having to sitout for some of the event). Whatever process applies to USA, Malaysia, Belgium and all other non GB countries must all apply to England, Scotland, etc, and vice versa.
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Could a format work with teams of six? Would it be that hard for Italians etc to find the extra players?
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Agree with you Chris, but would only apply to England - none of the other countries have selection issues (apart perhaps from Scotland), and for most it"s about scratching around to try and get people to play. For some, it even comes down to finding someone that qualifies because they might have seen the country in question on a map during a geography lesson at school. ;)
If a process is to be instated, it"s important that it can apply to ALL participating countries. As we saw in the ECOAP 2012, the process mandating that the home countries picked the highest ranked online league player meant that we had teams of 5 playing against non-home countries with teams of 4, and that caused disparity (and potential for ill feeling at times with players having to sitout for some of the event). Whatever process applies to USA, Malaysia, Belgium and all other non GB countries must all apply to England, Scotland, etc, and vice versa.
Apart from this cheap shot, this is an excellent assessment.
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Could a format work with teams of six? Would it be that hard for Italians etc to find the extra players?
Short term, that would be difficult for almost everyone bar England. Long term, probably best summarised by Rodders earlier in this thread...
- The player pool and situation England have is far from being the norm.
- the team event clashes with the best event of the year and by asking people to play in this event you are asking them to skip the majority of WCOAP. This makes it hard for small player pools to get enough players.
- a lot of the players, who have played in the past, feel they have now been there and done that.
- you really don"t want to be picking players to effectively "make the numbers up". You want all teams to be as competitive as possible.
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Could a format work with teams of six? Would it be that hard for Italians etc to find the extra players?
Speaking for Belgium; right now this would be difficult I think... And as I said before, 4 is most convenient for travelling etc.
We came to Prague by car and stayed in 1 hotel room, just to make it as cheap as possible... and Prague is pretty cheap, so for London it will be more expensive for people to come over.
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Whatever process applies to USA, Malaysia, Belgium and all other non GB countries must all apply to England, Scotland, etc, and vice versa.
Why? Anyway, some of those teams are made up of a small group who know each other and enter a team. How could they ever have the same process as the GB/Ire teams?
Could a format work with teams of six? Would it be that hard for Italians etc to find the extra players?
Without checking, from memory, I think the E/WCOAP teams have only twice gone to five players and have always been teams of four otherwise. The five-player teams were unwieldy and didn"t work as well. Stick with four per team IMO.
I haven"t seen any viable reason posted not to select the top four from each of the Eng/Scot/Wal/Ire player groups from the combined Live/Online rankings and make one of them the captain (highest placed?), offering places down if declined. Phil has identified the reasons. It rewards the players who have supported APAT and who who have scored well. It avoids cliques and selection of friends and mutterings that the team has not been selected fairly. It allows new players to make the team quickly without being disadvantaged compared to those on the inside track. I wouldn"t have any wildcards - all they do is bring in players who are known to the captain or did well in the past at the expense of those who have done well recently but are not so well known, which seems pretty unfair. Leaving the selection process as it currently is would mean that we will continue to see players near the top of the rankings being left out of teams.
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Whatever process applies to USA, Malaysia, Belgium and all other non GB countries must all apply to England, Scotland, etc, and vice versa.
Why? Anyway, some of those teams are made up of a small group who know each other and enter a team. How could they ever have the same process as the GB/Ire teams?
Because having a mandate that applies only to one small subset of the event is not right. I refer to ECOAP 2012 where Eng, Ire, Sco, Wal, all had to play a 5 man team from which they could only have 4 on the tables at any one time, which meant someone from each team was always sat out, including the MTT round...... BUT, other countries did not have the same mandate, hence could just field a team of 4, all of whom would play the whole event. It was a somewhat un-level playing field.... and that"s what I meant when I said the same set of rules must apply to all.
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What does the captain have to do besides pick the team as things currently stand?
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What does the captain have to do besides pick the team as things currently stand?
- organise shirts
- strategically position players in SnG"s
- pick players for HU matches
- Create and maintain a winning attitude
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Ty was wondering how much decision making they had to do in the tournament or whether all the sit n gos and tournys were random
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Sngs are random
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Sngs are random
If they are random then that is a recent change and a backward step imho.
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Sngs are random
If they are random then that is a recent change and a backward step imho.
They aren"t random - captains choose tables knowing the country layout. If that changed recently it will change back for world"s.
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Well euros was either random or done incorrectly. I had England A directly on my left in 5/6 sngs. With 7 players that can"t be correct? If correct pretty poor.
Never mind tho
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What does the captain have to do besides pick the team as things currently stand?
- organise shirts
- strategically position players in SnG"s
- pick players for HU matches
- Create and maintain a winning attitude
What have the Romans ever done for us?
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Well euros was either random or done incorrectly. I had England A directly on my left in 5/6 sngs. With 7 players that can"t be correct? If correct pretty poor.
Never mind tho
Ever think that the England A captain put them there on purpose? x
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The seat draw is randim, the captain then assigns players into them seats.
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I can"t speak for the recent UKCOAP event as I believe they had a bit of a laptop meltdown, and Mark & Des had to reconstruct on the fly.
In previous events, the seat draws for Sit n Go"s are constructed in the following way.
The seat draw is set out using generic team names, i.e. Team 1, Team 2, Team 3 to ensure that each team has a player located in a balanced seating formation throughout the tournament.
The teams are then randomly assigned a generic team position.
Captains then allocate players as they see fit with only the knowledge of the other countries seating positions prior to each phase.
On occasion, we have dabbled with "country cards", especially if there are a smaller number of teams. In this case, the captains would allocate each player to a match (which is pretty irrelevant really), and then players would select a random seating position on that table.
Both FIFA and UEFA have now adopted APAT's draw protocol"s, which would explain why Dan may have been sat next to an England A player on so many occasions. ;)
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This has been a really good thread to follow guys and it"s nice to see the passion coming through.
The official line on the key questions in the thread as they relate to WCOAP 2014 are:-
- Team Size
We have to go with four members. I"ve spoken at length to the captain of every country who has taken part in our international team competitions since we launched them in Brighton in 2008. On the whole, the European countries struggle to find the quantity of runners required to meet the expenses and cover for late drop outs etc. So to protect the integrity of the event, we have had to move back to four. Wish we didn"t, but we need to get back to making as many good decisions as we can, and moving to four players per team is one.
- Defending Champions re-enter
I"m open on this, albeit with the decrease in team size I guess it"s not such a question now. I"m a fan of the captain being able to decide his / her line up as that is part of the challenge of being a captain that is equal amongst all teams - whatever their catchment area. That said it makes sense for the rankings to determine some of the places where applicable. We"ll look at this again for next year - this year it is solely down to the captain.
However the teams are selected, there would not be the opportunity for an England "B" team to enter if England were the defending Champions. That would be a complete non starter for APAT - each country should only have one competing team in the event.
- Scheduling of team event.
It"s very difficult to schedule this event anywhere other than the two days prior to the main event. That gives the European players the opportunity to play both and the only other solution I can think of would be to run the team event following the main event. That would take just those players and the organisers into a new week and that would be very complicated for those with work etc. Aside from that we could potentially restrict POTY points to four events at the WCOAP, or similar, but we"ll get plenty of time to debate that once the WCOAP thread goes up. Soon obviously. :)
- Adding extra formats into the team event.
Think it would act as a barrier to the growth of the team event. Very few players know how to play Stud etc and the thought of playing it live for the first time and not letting down your team mates will put players off.
- Captains
I don"t necessarily think captains should change each year. I guess we are largely talking about the England position here. My belief is if the captain has done a really good job, then he deserves to keep his job. So while Carl is England skipper for season seven, Steve has been offered the chance to captain the team at the WCOAP. Both of these decisions were taken in parallel at the start of the season. I don"t believe the captain should automatically select the same players the following year though. Lots of variables change and loyalty alone is not the only skill required in a good Captain.
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Good post Des.
Re the final point, as you know, I would have welcomed the chance to be able to defend the title as a complete team, however I respect the decisions that make this impossible. When I declined the season-long captaincy at the start of the season, I did so to give someone else a chance - I"ve played so many of these events, and it"s unfair on those that are desperate to get their chance, so given the confirmations made in your post, I will respectfully (and somewhat reluctantly) decline the opportunity to captain England again at next year"s WCOAP.
Best wishes to whoever takes England forward next, and good luck to a team that will have a very high standard to meet.
My gold medal and bracelet won as captain of England carry some very fond memories..... I guess it"s always good to end on a high :)
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Good post Des.
Re the final point, as you know, I would have welcomed the chance to be able to defend the title as a complete team, however I respect the decisions that make this impossible. When I declined the season-long captaincy at the start of the season, I did so to give someone else a chance - I"ve played so many of these events, and it"s unfair on those that are desperate to get their chance, so given the confirmations made in your post, I will respectfully (and somewhat reluctantly) decline the opportunity to captain England again at next year"s WCOAP.
Best wishes to whoever takes England forward next, and good luck to a team that will have a very high standard to meet.
My gold medal and bracelet won as captain of England carry some very fond memories..... I guess it"s always good to end on a high :)
Thanks for this Steve.
You were an excellent England captain and contributing team member and I regretfully accept your resignation on behalf of APAT.
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That"s all a bit serious. Let me cheer up the thread for the Enlgish ;D
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l9Myc6Cj01M/UVZWQwuPmpI/AAAAAAAA1NQ/_xdBux36Smg/s800/IMG_3849.JPG)
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When will England team be announced?!
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When will England team be announced?!
They"ll need a captain first!
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Ok after a little issue with my Apat account im back. New name and all. Im zzBlizzardzz and Im or have been the Captain of Team Canada for the past 3 years. Whilst it is true I struggle every year to get player"s and there is no picking and choosing who is the best players, I take what I can get. That being said we have win medals two out of three times so I cannot fault the talent of a the players I am fortunate to play for our team. I doubt there is another team that has to work as hard as us to get a team together. I did struggle last year when it jumped to 5 per team but I made it happen. I say I made it happen because quite frankly its alot of work finding 4 Canadians that play poker and are able to or want to play the wcoap. It is work and alot of stress when it comes down to the wire. Every team has its problems so im not bitching. If I cant find the players then I will simply back Team Canada out of the Tournament. England however does not have thus luxury, the Captain of England is basically in charge of disappointing a vast number of his or her friends for the sake of picking 3 or 4 other players. I dont envy that, I do envy the talent pool they get though if im honest. But that being said I wouldnt give up one of my guys/girls for anyone. This is not about individuals. This is about representing your country. Of course England will defend its title, its Englands title, not Steve"s, Asa"s, Tony"s, Carl"s or Stu"s. Its Englands title and it will be defended. And if APAT decide its 4,5,6,7,8 players then thats what it will be. It will be difficult or Impossible for some countrys and this will cause them to drop out and that would be a shame. These small pool Teams of which Canada is part of look forward to this event all year as its the only event in the APAT calender that they can play as a team. It is my humble opinion that anything that makes it easier for these small pool teams can only be better for the event over all. So, that being said I hope to see you all not only at the upcoming WCOAP but for many years to come.