Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: pokerpops on December 17, 2013, 15:09:49 PM
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Late in a $4.50 180man on Stars
22 left we"re around 10th with 12k which is a touch above average
Folds to us on the button at 200/400 with JJ
Raise to 800, SB folds, BB makes it 2200 from 6k
We?
Readless btw
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What stack does the SB have? I think I prefer shove over MR preflop.
As played, I call in game.
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What stack does the SB have? I think I prefer shove over MR preflop.
As played, I call in game.
SB had similar to BB c6k
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Surely we can"t flat here Adam?? It"s a shove or fold for me, at this stage I really don"t think either a shove or a fold is that bad, but I think I shove it in, he can be re stealing light here, and we are probably flipping.
If we lose we still have c14bb left which is easily rebuilt by picking good stealing spots, if we win we probably make FT.
Stick it in his eye.
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Also reasons for min raise from button? Is it to induce the raise? If so you have desired result, now spring the trap :)
I might even be tempted to open ship from button v them stacks in this spot
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Also reasons for min raise from button? Is it to induce the raise? If so you have desired result, now spring the trap :)
I might even be tempted to open ship from button v them stacks in this spot
antes in play = min raise? I don"t play many of these
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I think I would just shove here... He could be putting you on a steal and could do this with any Ace or 2 high cards; or a smaller pair.
So most of the time I think you will be well ahead or a have a coinflip; if he has QQ+ that"s just bad luck.
And you are still in the tournament if you lose.
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My mistake, I misread. I assumed BB shoved and we were calling all in.
As played, shove.
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There is good reason for open-shoving this with the stack sizes in the blinds. However, you chose to min-raise, and presumably you had a plan when doing so? The plan can never have been to flat a small re-raise. So, with the small stacks in the blinds, if you are going to play this hand, you have to commit to it fully.... I like the open shove as it looks weak, but then I also like the min-raise to induce. Either way, I"m never folding at any point.
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Also reasons for min raise from button? Is it to induce the raise? If so you have desired result, now spring the trap :)
I might even be tempted to open ship from button v them stacks in this spot
antes in play = min raise? I don"t play many of these
The last thing you want is them flatting and then having to play on Q+ flops.
Just shove it in and make them play for all their chips to see 5 cards. As said, you might get called light by bmpeiple thinking you are stealing.
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Stinks of AA or KK to me, he is never folding on the flop, prob sigh shove hoping he has AK at best, he probably just jams AK pre.
Folding may seem weak, but I see this so often, he obviously wants the shove or call, he is never going to fold whatever the flop is, go with your gut.
Folding still leaves you with a decent shove stack, I think you will need to hit your set though if you call.
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Depends on stack sizes of both sb & bb and their tendencies, but generally I like to min raise induce in this spot.
I would expect most of the time that a resteal range will be wider than a calling range and thus have less equity.
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Shove pre, as you didn"t, shove now and when he flips over 10 10 briefly congratulate yourself until the 10 hits the river, swear profusely grab a beer and move on...... ;D ;D ;D
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can"t believe no one has linked the "how to play jacks" clip from you tube
As played I"m shipping here. Readless pre I like the min raise to induce.
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can"t believe no one has linked the "how to play jacks" clip from you tube
Oh ok, go on then....
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA[/youtube]
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As played I"m shipping here. Readless pre I like the min raise to induce.
+1,000,000
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I think I would just shove here... He could be putting you on a steal and could do this with any Ace or 2 high cards; or a smaller pair.
So most of the time I think you will be well ahead or a have a coinflip; if he has QQ+ that"s just bad luck.
And you are still in the tournament if you lose.
This^^
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Open shoving is a really unprofitable play here with these stacks.
You may get called by weaker hands that think you are "at it" but what is most likely is that you generally fold out a load of hands that would ship over a min raise that are crushed by JJ.
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Also by min raising you can steal profitably and fold to a reshove if needs be. Open shoving just tightens your range
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If there are 22 left then 12K is actually slightly below average but it does not make a lot of difference tbh. We are still 30BB deep. Antes will be 50 at this point. Readless means we have to take the default player in a Pokerstars $4.50. This should not be mixed up with the default player in a $2.50 (turbo) btw. This is not a turbo structure and this has an affect on our decisions, the correct play in a $2.50 may not be correct play here. We should still be trying to make the final table at this point.
Raise/Call a shove is a far better play than open shoving. Although restealing in these is pretty rare it does occasionally happen and a reshoving range will be slightly weaker than a calling range as they have percieved fold equity. In the turbo games I have seen reshoves in this kind of spot with hands like A2 suited and T9 suited. You see this a LOT less in these games but it does still happen. You will occasionally get flat called of course but this is fine as you have position and a hand that totally dominates their flatting range. You will win more chips this way than you will by shoving, even though shoving is +EV.
With our min raise we should have 350 (about) antes in the pot, 600 in blinds and our 800 raise so a total of 1750. With around 6K their stacks are perfect to reship with loads of fold equity against a button raise. I would say that they will do this with a range of:-
88+, AJ+, KQ - obviously we crush this you can even add in some other hands that are the air in their range.
The problem is we have not seen a shove here but a weird small raise. I don"t see this being like two broadway cards very often as they should be happy to take it there. I think a lot of the middle pairs are happy to win it there as well so would shove. His range for doing this is likely TT+ and strongly weighted towards AA and KK in these. We play badly against this. If I am playing well I can fold this hand here, not easily but I can do it in game.
If we are not folding I think shoving is probably a little better than calling even some of the hands that are obviously crushed will convince themselves to call due to pot odds.
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Open shoving is a really unprofitable play here with these stacks.
You may get called by weaker hands that think you are "at it" but what is most likely is that you generally fold out a load of hands that would ship over a min raise that are crushed by JJ.
By unprofitable you probably mean sub-optimal ;) it"s hard not to make profit from having a premium pair on the button.
Yeah the blinds could have a big hand and the small 3-bet without shoving is a bit suss but you would have to set the cards on fire for me to do anything but go all in here
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Yes dean, that was what I meant.
Though you could argue that shoving in this spot long term, would mean by winning less you negatively affect your chances of running deep and in return, damaging your bottom line. ;)
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Brian spotted the dangers in his
Obviously he had KK
[ ] binked
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Ship make a note and move on. I would then monitor whether he always does this with just his strong hands or all re steals.
Those saying shove cos they don"t want to play a flop in position with JJ wtf? This is a slam dunk raise/call otb. If we get called lets play some poker with JJ in position.