Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: REvans84 on July 29, 2008, 15:51:57 PM
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Hey,
I was just wondering what some of you would of done in this situation.
Home game - 5 players. Winner takes all.
It was our 2nd game and we started with 5000 chips this time around.
Level 1 (25/50) 20 Min clock. Approx 18 minutes in.
Guy UTG+1 (Cutoff) does his standard raise of 4x BB to 200. (Stack of 5000)
Guy on button re-raises to 1000. (Stack of 5000)
I"m in the SB with TT. (Stack of 5400)
Guy UTG+1 is a good player. He likes to raise alot with connecting cards.
Guy on the button is very aggressive. He 3 bets light alot! I"ve seen him 3 bet small pairs, any ace and any pocket paint/broadway cards.
Do I fold, call or shove?
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You can"t call - you"re out of position after the flop, and it is highly likely the flop will not be favourable to TT
So, only options are re-raise (min-raise will commit you to pot, so may as well shove the lot), or fold and find a better spot.
It comes down to how you read the guys, and if you get either of them to give you some info. If the second guy had just flat called, I would be raising for a squeeze, but think I would probably be wary of his substantion re-raise.
If your shove is called, you are probably racing at best, and possibly dominated. So it comes down to whether you believe both of the other guys will fold to a shove.
I"m folding.
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You can"t call - you"re out of position after the flop, and it is highly likely the flop will not be favourable to TT
So, only options are re-raise (min-raise will commit you to pot, so may as well shove the lot), or fold and find a better spot.
It comes down to how you read the guys, and if you get either of them to give you some info. If the second guy had just flat called, I would be raising for a squeeze, but think I would probably be wary of his substantion re-raise.
If your shove is called, you are probably racing at best, and possibly dominated. So it comes down to whether you believe both of the other guys will fold to a shove.
I"m folding.
Spot on that man .....-- I fold and let them fight it out
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I agree entirely with the above. 10s don"t play well against a raise, and a re raise, you have got to give credit for over cards at worst, so where does that leave you on a flop with picture cards or better.
Fold and wait for a better spot, position is king!
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I shouldnt really put my 2 pence in to this as its probably worth about -10 pence! However here goes - pls dont linch me! (I owe u 10p).
Probably all the other comments will say fold but I love playing from the SB as long as you pick ur plays astutely. You get to act first which isn"t textbook hold"em but if I am going to play out of position then its in the SB!!!!
Plus my Ten"s held up very favourable for me (3 times) last night in a live sng last night so I am slightly biased as it is.
If I think UTG+1 doesn"t have a re raise in him and neither of them have pocket overapairs then i"m calling with a view to negotiate the flop, and act first if the board comes ragerty.
Some will say this more tournement play as aposed to home game but its worth a crack imo, you have to get the edge somehow and at the end of the day if your strong enough to get away from it early then your only going to be 600 off your starting 5k.
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For the same reasons given by AMRN I would fold in this spot.
Even though UTG+1 could raise connected cards, and button 3-bets light, their range will most likely also include JJ+ (ie hands that beat you)
Also, if you were to shove, you would get called by KK and AA and most probably QQ - all hands that crush you. You might get JJ to fold - the one premium pair you beat.
<99 and virtually all connector & big card type hands that you beat will fold.
In this kind of spot I only want to be raising hands where I have either massive fold equity or hands where if I get called, I have decent equity against the callers range.
Don"t think this applies here so it"s a fold for me.
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With blinds 25/50 seems a bit of a risk to get all in with TT this early for 5000 chips preflop, id prob fold and look for a better spot, hes put in a 5th of his stack so are you going to fold most hands your racing with and you def getting called by any hand that beats you. If you call your putting in roughly 1 5th of your stack out of position and then your guessing if the flop comes down with a picture in it to whether your ahead (thats if you were ahead pre flop).
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I posted this over at full contact poker forum aswel and its funny to see most of them (the few that have responded so far anyways) to be pushing.
I am definately not calling here - that is the worst choice in my opinion.
With blinds 25/50 seems a bit of a risk to get all in with TT this early for 5000 chips preflop, id prob fold and look for a better spot
Yes it is early on, but I have no leverage what so ever other than a shove if I am going to raise.
With it being winner takes all and the fact that the button is a Super LAG and 3 bets so light I decided to shove. If i didn"t have this information I think its a pretty standard fold for me.
Anyway original raiser mucked and as he did, exposed a Ten.
The button called and showed AA.
Board was QQQ 5 and the river was the case Ten (lol)
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sick sick sick board!
Yeah your rite the call is probably the worst choice, I"d still do it if I fancied it tho! :-[ (possibly 20% of the time, try and get some diginity back!)
Looked for the post on Full contact couldn"t find it. Interested to see what they are saying over there.
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http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forum/index.php?showtopic=126195
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cheers
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i presume you are playing seriously or you wouldn"t have posted this (it is a homegame afterall and mine are usually a drinking comp rather than a poker comp)
its a clear fold here unless you have a read to the contrary - 10s don"t stand up very well against and UTG raise and a 3bet, you can"t call 20% of your stack hopelessly out of position hoping to flop a set. Basically by shoving you are either hoping the 3bettor is on a steal and that UTG is fairly weak, or hoping for a flip at best.
all things considered its a pretty easy fold.
and for the guy that loves playing from the SB, you may have a leak in your game imo
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It wasn"t an UTG raise it was an UTG+1 (which is the cut off) and we were 5 handed anyways. So even if he was UTG its just like a middle position raise at a full table.
I have been talking about it alot with my mate who posted it over at Full Contact Poker and with his mate who plays mainly $5/$10 NL cash and were agreeing because it was winner takes all and the fact the button guy 3 bets light ALOT - were all siding with shoving over folding.
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Its a total no brainer fold for me.
Even though you have provided all the historic information about the players the simple fact is you are putting all your chips (100 BB) into the pot 3rd with a hand easily dominated and most of the time racing in Level 1.
Wait for better spots imo.
As quoted by Dean if you are just treating it as this a beer fueled home game and a laugh then fair enough but if you want feedback on correctness of the play it has to be fold imo.
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If you weren"t so deep then I"d see the argument for shoving 10"s, but with 100 big blinds to play with I "d go with theory of letting them scrap it out.
You"re only 5 handed so if one of them gets crippled or knocked out this hand you"ve only got 3 people to beat and you"ve got lots and lots of chips to do it with and if the button won that hand after his reraise then he"s increased his stack by a significant percentage, but you"ve got plenty of time and chips to outplay him later.
I think the shove option is really ignoring how many chips you have.
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and for the guy that loves playing from the SB, you may have a leak in your game imo
Not sure if its a leak! Seems more like a full blown get your arm bands & life jacket out flood!
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From a maths point of view, you would be shoving effective stack of 5000 into a pot of 1275.
If they fold more than 5000/(5000+1275) = 80% of time, then you will automatically make a profit on this in the long run.
If they"re only calling your shove with QQ,KK,AA,AK then they"re calling with about 3% of possible cards. So doing the maths they need to be raising at least
3 / (1- 0.80) = 15% of their cards for them to fold 80% of time.
Above is a bit techincal but it leads to the conclusion that if the button reraiser is reraising lighter than 15% (which according to your read he could be) you could probably shove on him profitably.
The trouble is this does not consider the cut-off raiser. And also I know this a winner take all tournament but getting them to fold will only add 1275 to your stack, and if they do call you"re behind more often than not.
I think I would still fold, and look for a post flop opportunity rather than get all in now in a rather marginal situation.
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Isn"t it hellish playing against people who"re willing to raise it up to 20*BB in the first level, and only 5 handed :o
That"s even worse than our local casino 10 seat 3000 chip SnG, which can very quickly turn into a complete all-in/fold slugfest..........but our blinds at least start at 100/100 :D
Fold & let them fight it out or put the lot in the middle then send them all home for spoiling your night >:(
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Just elaborating on what you said Departed.
I mentioned earlier that he 3 bets light ALOT and his range of 3 betting was Any Pair, any Ace and any Broadway which equals a total of 329 hands.
Once I have shoved his range narrows down (But not much at all really, I should of mentioned this earlier - He will still call a 4 bet/4 bet shove light too) to calling me with 66+, A7+ and still any Broadway which equals a total of 225 hands. So he is folding 104 hands.
104/329 = 32%.
My equity according to Poker Stove against his calling range is 59.86%.
So,
The amount of chips on average I would win when he folds to my shove is:
1275 (pot) x 0.32 = 408.
The amount of chips I would win on average when he calls and I win the pot at a showdown is:
(10275 x 0.68) x 0.599 = 4185
The amount of chips I would lose on average when he calls and I lose the pot at a showdown is:
(-5000 x 0.68) x 0.401 = -1363
So my EV is -1363 + 408 + 4185 = 3230.
Adding over 60% to my stack surely cant be bad! :-p
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Once I have shoved his range narrows down (But not much at all really, I should of mentioned this earlier - He will still call a 4 bet/4 bet shove light too) to calling me with 66+, A7+ and still any Broadway which equals a total of 225 hands. So he is folding 104 hands.
104/329 = 32%.
Ah ok - if he calls a shove really light as well then that certainly changes thing and means a shove from you is going to be profitable long-term.
The amount of chips I would win on average when he calls and I win the pot at a showdown is:
(10275 x 0.68) x 0.599 = 4185
You can only take the incremental increase into account in your calculation.
So it is 5275 * 0.68 * 0.599 = 2149
This means overall your EV is 2k lower, ie about +1k overall
So still profitable based on the ranges you stated but only adds 20% to stack, rather than 60%
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Easy fold for me at this stage of the game, why risk so much with TT? Let the 2 of them battle it out and wait for a better spot.
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lmao intresting one, well if i was you and i had your reads it would be killer poker for me baby and reraise all in, 5 handed TT is quite a strong hand...... if they want to dance this early in a sng lets give em some action :) ;D
after all its winner takes all , chip up or have a quick visit to the bar [nice]