Amateur Poker Association & Tour

Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: rubertoe on August 01, 2008, 07:13:49 AM

Title: Showing Cards!
Post by: rubertoe on August 01, 2008, 07:13:49 AM
I am a litle Confused as to who shows their cards first at a show down ???

and i wondered if there are any budding TD"s out there that can clarify a few things for me?

If a hand goes to a show down (heads up) then which player would show first in the following scenario"s

1 Player A bets and player B calls.
2 Player A checks, Player B Bets and Player A calls that bet.
3 Both players check!

And can some one let me know the etiquite of seeing a loosing hand before it is mucked, i was under the impression that the only player that should ask to see a loosing hand is a player who is also in the pot!

Cheers.

Robbie
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: mrmacacan on August 01, 2008, 07:42:56 AM

I am a litle Confused as to who shows their cards first at a show down ???

and i wondered if there are any budding TD"s out there that can clarify a few things for me?

If a hand goes to a show down (heads up) then which player would show first in the following scenario"s

1 Player A bets and player B calls.
2 Player A checks, Player B Bets and Player A calls that bet.
3 Both players check!

And can some one let me know the etiquite of seeing a loosing hand before it is mucked, i was under the impression that the only player that should ask to see a loosing hand is a player who is also in the pot!

Cheers.

Robbie


1. A shows
2. B shows
3. nearest dealer (clockwise)

Usually if someone is pretty sure they have the winning hand then
they usually show.
Sometimes I will wait cos I want to get info on players.

Anyone on the table can ask to see a players hand, but this is as good
as accusing them of cheating.

At a showdown a hand MUST be shown to win the pot.
So if someone was bluffing and gets a call, then mucks the caller must still show
his hand.

Think I am right.

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: jacQues on August 01, 2008, 13:17:10 PM
3. nearest dealer (clockwise)

Um no.  This is, depending on the rules used, either the first player that checked (so the first player after the button) or the last player that bet/raised.

Anyone on the table can ask to see a players hand, but this is as good
as accusing them of cheating.

Again, this depends on the rules used.  Either what you said, or only players in the hand at showdown, can request to see down hands.  Mucked hands (e.g. hands that are placed in the muck pile by the dealer) can only be retrieved by the TD in unusual situations.

Etiquette wise, asking to see a hand is considered rude.  This option is in place for players to check for colluding.  For example, player A who is chip leader checks holding a set and player B checks holding not much but is very short and they are good friends.  In this case, player A could dump her/his chips to player B by mucking the hand.  This, of-course, is a form of cheating.

What I like in on-line play is that mucked hands at showdown can always be seen by all players via the hand history.  Live I will wait for the other player to show in 90% of the case, in order to gain just that little bit of extra information.  If a hand is played very weird, in some cases I do indeed ask to see a down hand.  But this is very very rare.

At a showdown a hand MUST be shown to win the pot.
So if someone was bluffing and gets a call, then mucks the caller must still show
his hand.

Correct.  The reason is that player A who mucked is, in fact, playing the board.  Thus for player B to claim the pot, (s)he must show a hand that beats the board.  In addition to this, a "shown hand" is always two cards, so showing one ace will not do it.
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: AMRN on August 01, 2008, 13:41:24 PM
many places will insist that if a hand goes to showdown, ALL hands left in are shown, even if the holder of the hand concedes defeat. This is to protect against soft play or deliberate mucking of a winning hand.

Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: hi_am_chris on August 01, 2008, 13:42:36 PM
I think i saw in a tv tournament where they were saying that the player who performed the last aggressive action in the hand had to show first?
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Roscopiko on August 01, 2008, 13:54:14 PM
Seems I am just plain rude then cos I always ask to see a mucked hand when allowed to do so.

Didn"t realise this was bad ettiquette and will buck up my ideas in future, sorry folks.
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: mrmacacan on August 01, 2008, 14:03:22 PM

3. nearest dealer (clockwise)

Um no.  This is, depending on the rules used, either the first player that checked (so the first player after the button) or the last player that bet/raised.

Anyone on the table can ask to see a players hand, but this is as good
as accusing them of cheating.

Again, this depends on the rules used.  Either what you said, or only players in the hand at showdown, can request to see down hands.  Mucked hands (e.g. hands that are placed in the muck pile by the dealer) can only be retrieved by the TD in unusual situations.

Etiquette wise, asking to see a hand is considered rude.  This option is in place for players to check for colluding.  For example, player A who is chip leader checks holding a set and player B checks holding not much but is very short and they are good friends.  In this case, player A could dump her/his chips to player B by mucking the hand.  This, of-course, is a form of cheating.

What I like in on-line play is that mucked hands at showdown can always be seen by all players via the hand history.  Live I will wait for the other player to show in 90% of the case, in order to gain just that little bit of extra information.  If a hand is played very weird, in some cases I do indeed ask to see a down hand.  But this is very very rare.

At a showdown a hand MUST be shown to win the pot.
So if someone was bluffing and gets a call, then mucks the caller must still show
his hand.

Correct.  The reason is that player A who mucked is, in fact, playing the board.  Thus for player B to claim the pot, (s)he must show a hand that beats the board.  In addition to this, a "shown hand" is always two cards, so showing one ace will not do it.




I was half right then. ;)

These are the rules we try to stick to in home games.

Thanks for the reply jacQues, very good write up.

This is what a part of forums is for, we are all learning all the time.


8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: HaworthBantam on August 01, 2008, 16:17:15 PM

many places will insist that if a hand goes to showdown, ALL hands left in are shown, even if the holder of the hand concedes defeat. This is to protect against soft play or deliberate mucking of a winning hand.


The APAT rules used to state that all hands that go to showdown must be shown. I can"t find them in the current version though....


I think i saw in a tv tournament where they were saying that the player who performed the last aggressive action in the hand had to show first?


If the rules state that all hands must be shown at showdown, what does it matter who shows first ?


Seems I am just plain rude then cos I always ask to see a mucked hand when allowed to do so.

Didn"t realise this was bad ettiquette and will buck up my ideas in future, sorry folks.


I don"t believe it is bad ettequette, you"ve paid to see the other players hand, what"s the problem ?

As Jacques has pointed out, it really all depends on the rules to which you"re playing. And we should always make ourselves aware of local rules before we sit down to play.
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Cyntaf on August 01, 2008, 16:20:46 PM


At a showdown a hand MUST be shown to win the pot.
So if someone was bluffing and gets a call, then mucks the caller must still show
his hand.

Correct.  The reason is that player A who mucked is, in fact, playing the board.  Thus for player B to claim the pot, (s)he must show a hand that beats the board.  In addition to this, a "shown hand" is always two cards, so showing one ace will not do it.

[/quote]

Not sure this is correct, if you muck your hand I would have thought your not playing any hand.(You"ve mucked and therefore conceded).
Generally I"d agree, last aggressive act to show first. Ie he bets, trying to make opponent lay down. But oppo calls, he is paying to see the bettor"s cards.
I personally turn my cards over straight away, as they are not going to change or improve in any way whatsoever.
When i play live, in tournaments all hands must be turned over immediately at showdown, be it hds up or 4 players. Again i don"t waste the clock deciding who"s showing first or last, the outcome will be the same, and you will get to see all the cards played by your oppo"s.

Cash is different, generally if the winner shows, allbeit because it"s him to act first or to save the blushes of the loser. You do not have to show, Unless it"s to claim the pot. I have seen it where hds up/showdown and winner only shows one card, say an Ace, or card to fill the straight. Whilst i think you should show both cards, if I"m not involved in the pot, i leave it up to the guy who"s just lost his money to ask to see the second, should he wish to. I"ve found that if it"s a big enough pot, he doesn"t really give a hoot what the other card is, he"s still lost a shed load of cash :(
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: kinboshi on August 01, 2008, 16:38:04 PM
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Cyntaf on August 01, 2008, 16:43:34 PM
Sorry if i"m teaching grandma to suck eggs with this one. Whilst on the subject of showing cards, we all know that if the dealer exposes a card, then all the table should be made aware of what that card is, it"s information, right?

Similarly at showdown or where all have folded, and the guy who won the pot by default, then shows his mate what he was holding(his hole cards), In a Tournament it"s a case of show one show all, You cannot give one player information, he could later use in another hand against You, and put all else at a disadvantage,The others who haven"t seen what cards you raised with ie utg, in a tourney.

Cash again, at least when I"ve played, if you win the pot, when all fold, you can show one person if you wish to. The others are politely told to do one as they have not payed to see your cards. I personally either don"t show, otherwise turn them on their backs for all to see. I can"t see why you would want to risk starting an argument. Some do it to prove a point??? game slows down, atmosphere changes etc, and lets face it if your winning why would you want anything to change.

Just be nice and polite at the tables, it doesn"t cost anything, but could cost you an awful lot if your not nice. ::) Here endeth the lesson ::)

Does anyone else play it differently in their games elsewhere?
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: kinboshi on August 01, 2008, 17:09:07 PM
At DTD, I"m sure it"s the case that if you show one in a cash game you have to show all.  99.99% sure that"s the case.
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: AMRN on August 01, 2008, 17:14:13 PM
I"ve never played anywhere that doesn"t insist on show one show all....

Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: hi_am_chris on August 01, 2008, 17:27:43 PM
Haworth.. i think the point of last aggressive action showing was that the other play had made the call so had a right to see his cards first before being allowed to muck if beat, however this was roland de wolfe trying to force juha helpi to show his 6 2 off no pair no draw hand at showdown
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Jon MW on August 01, 2008, 17:35:07 PM
Quote




At a showdown a hand MUST be shown to win the pot.
So if someone was bluffing and gets a call, then mucks the caller must still show
his hand.

Correct.  The reason is that player A who mucked is, in fact, playing the board.  Thus for player B to claim the pot, (s)he must show a hand that beats the board.  In addition to this, a "shown hand" is always two cards, so showing one ace will not do it.



Not sure this is correct, if you muck your hand I would have thought your not playing any hand.(You"ve mucked and therefore conceded)....


I always assumed it was an anti collusion measure, but thinking about it that would only really work if both hands were shown.
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Cyntaf on August 01, 2008, 20:43:53 PM
Totally agree Dan, I too think and insist both cards are shown to take a pot down, I just don"t get involved if I"m not in the hand on a cash table. To reenforce it, it is called a SHOWDOWN for a reason :)

John I think collusion is the main reason. I wonder if by luck, it also prevents too much bluffing, and force a more correct line of play, otherwise i suppose every game may turn into a crap shoot when we may as well then play 3 card brag or another game of just balls and gambling.
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: mal666 on August 02, 2008, 16:26:54 PM
Asking to see a mucked hand and slow rolling.
These are the two biggest sins in live poker.
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: RioRodent on August 02, 2008, 17:15:36 PM

I wonder if by luck, it also prevents too much bluffing, and force a more correct line of play, otherwise i suppose every game may turn into a crap shoot when we may as well then play 3 card brag or another game of just balls and gambling.


Well if that isn"t the damdest thing I ever read!!!

(http://grza.net/GIS/Bush%20Scratching%20Head.jpg)
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: AMRN on August 02, 2008, 17:45:53 PM

I wonder if by luck, it also prevents too much bluffing, and force a more correct line of play, otherwise i suppose every game may turn into a crap shoot when we may as well then play 3 card brag or another game of just balls and gambling.


Errrrr, and we could call it poker!?
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: rubertoe on August 02, 2008, 18:07:12 PM
It seems that i have created a bit of debate, which can only be good for all of us!! :)

My Rule book, states:

"The Showdown"

1: A player must show all cards in the hand face up on the table to win any part of the pot.

2: If you show cards  to another player during or after the deal, any player at the table has the right to see those exposed caards. cards shown during the deal to a player not in the pot should only be shown to all players whn the deal is finished.

3: If everyone checks(or is all in) on the final betting round, the player who acted firstis the first to show the hand. if ther is waggering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. if ther is a side pot, players involved in that pot should show their hands before anyone who is all in for the main pot only.

This is taken from Roberts rules of poker, Which happens to be my name, the author is Robert Ciffone, it came free with a mag.

These would be the rules that we would play in our home game, and i am Known as the TD in, for doing most of the organising!

Good luck all !!!

Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: mal666 on August 02, 2008, 19:10:38 PM
if ther is waggering on the final betting round

whats waggering?
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: RioRodent on August 02, 2008, 21:15:49 PM

if ther is waggering on the final betting round

whats waggering?


Now then, play nice... smelling doesn"t matter.

;)
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: RioRodent on August 02, 2008, 21:20:16 PM


I wonder if by luck, it also prevents too much bluffing, and force a more correct line of play, otherwise i suppose every game may turn into a crap shoot when we may as well then play 3 card brag or another game of just balls and gambling.


Errrrr, and we could call it poker!?



And if we could just find a way to eradicate that despicable habit that a lot of people have got into these days... Check/Raisng... then the game would be much better, that"s what I say.

RR 8)

PS. Oh yes, and take all the b****rd Jacks out of the deck before we start as well.

:)
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Cyntaf on August 03, 2008, 21:36:43 PM


I wonder if by luck, it also prevents too much bluffing, and force a more correct line of play, otherwise i suppose every game may turn into a crap shoot when we may as well then play 3 card brag or another game of just balls and gambling.


Well if that isn"t the damdest thing I ever read!!!

(http://grza.net/GIS/Bush%20Scratching%20Head.jpg)



Some things are tongue in cheek, thought provoking or simply to just help out total newbies who have joined or looking at the forum. So apologies for not thinking about myself all of the time.  ;D
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: hi_am_chris on August 25, 2008, 00:27:42 AM
just found this on the england poker league website :

"The last player to bet or raise, or to check first if no one else bets, is required to show their cards first at the showdown. The remaining players may or may not show their cards as they wish."
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: bigalhx3 on August 25, 2008, 11:10:08 AM

Sorry if i"m teaching grandma to suck eggs with this one. Whilst on the subject of showing cards, we all know that if the dealer exposes a card, then all the table should be made aware of what that card is, it"s information, right?

Similarly at showdown or where all have folded, and the guy who won the pot by default, then shows his mate what he was holding(his hole cards), In a Tournament it"s a case of show one show all, You cannot give one player information, he could later use in another hand against You, and put all else at a disadvantage,The others who haven"t seen what cards you raised with ie utg, in a tourney.

Cash again, at least when I"ve played, if you win the pot, when all fold, you can show one person if you wish to. The others are politely told to do one as they have not payed to see your cards. I personally either don"t show, otherwise turn them on their backs for all to see. I can"t see why you would want to risk starting an argument. Some do it to prove a point??? game slows down, atmosphere changes etc, and lets face it if your winning why would you want anything to change.

Just be nice and polite at the tables, it doesn"t cost anything, but could cost you an awful lot if your not nice. ::) Here endeth the lesson ::)

Does anyone else play it differently in their games elsewhere?


when playing the cash in dublin paul you had to turn your cards over at showdown just so the dealer could tell you wot you had  ::)
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Cyntaf on August 25, 2008, 17:03:37 PM

[/quote]

when playing the cash in dublin paul you had to turn your cards over at showdown just so the dealer could tell you wot you had  ::)
[/quote]

LMAO, thanks Al, I"d forgotten all about this ;D ;D
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: duke3016 on August 25, 2008, 17:18:47 PM




when playing the cash in dublin paul you had to turn your cards over at showdown just so the dealer could tell you wot you had  ::)
[/quote]

LMAO, thanks Al, I"d forgotten all about this ;D ;D
[/quote]

Standard -- don"t know why but it took me 10 minutes before I could type anything -- still busrting my ****** laughing
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: bigalhx3 on August 25, 2008, 19:10:58 PM
the best thing was he cashed his chips before going back to the hotel and was saying he had had a good night but the next day every time he went in a pocket there was more chips to be found that he did not know he had won. thats wot drinking all day with dewi does for you wot a good trip that was
Title: Re: Showing Cards!
Post by: Cyntaf on August 26, 2008, 11:54:27 AM
Don"t blame me Ger, I"m not going to rub them better for you :o