Amateur Poker Association & Tour

Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: kinboshi on September 07, 2008, 20:48:34 PM

Title: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 07, 2008, 20:48:34 PM
OK, here"s one from last night.

9-handed table £1/2 cash table at DTD.

Table has been pretty wild and people are having a great time throwing their money around and straddles are the norm.

Approx. stack sizes:
S1 - BB (me) - £360
S2 - £400
S3 - £180
S4 - £400
S5 - £350
S6 - £250
S7 - £120
S8 - £220
S9 (SB) - £320

I"m in the BB, with  qh  qd.

As was the norm at that time of the session, my BB was straddled round to £16 virtually every time.  The three players doing the straddling to my left have been very loose, and very willing to get in light and call or raise with less than optimum hands.  Because of this, their stacks have fluctuated wildly.

Everyone folds round to the SB, who raises up to £60.  The SB has been one of the tightest players at the table, and seems to know what he"s doing.  Whenever he"s been involved pre-flop, he"s had a decent hand.  He"s been on the table a while, and knows that the players to act after me have been very eager to call or re-raise with a wide range of cards.


What should I do, and why?

Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Jon MW on September 07, 2008, 20:50:20 PM
I can"t be bothered to read the whole scenario, but I"m pretty sure the answer is "fold".  ;D
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 07, 2008, 20:57:12 PM

I can"t be bothered to read the whole scenario, but I"m pretty sure the answer is "fold".  ;D


Not your usual incisive, analytic reply - but I like it!
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Chipaccrual on September 07, 2008, 21:00:29 PM
In my opinion, you should never have left the Gap photo shoot to play the cash tables.

Nice pose.
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: duke3016 on September 07, 2008, 21:05:37 PM
BIG raise -- and the only reason is because i"m me -- As for you being the super cash player you are (no joke I mean that) you could consider a flat call to see what the rest do considering the loose btards behind you

EDITED COS I"M DRUNK
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Santino67 on September 07, 2008, 22:52:42 PM
How much did you start with Daniel? I"d be tempted to re-raise as it"s only KK or AA that"s beating you. If the SB has either then he"s definitely calling or going over the top but the other muppets will surely get scared off if they even have half a piece of grey matter in their skulls.
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 07, 2008, 22:55:00 PM

How much did you start with Daniel?


I sat down with £200, but there"s no cap on the max sit down at the table.

Quote
I"d be tempted to re-raise as it"s only KK or AA that"s beating you. If the SB has either then he"s definitely calling or going over the top but the other muppets will surely get scared off if they even have half a piece of grey matter in their skulls.


What range do you think he could have, considering that he"s a tight player and knows there are some maniacs still to act (and me of course)?
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: AMRN on September 07, 2008, 23:21:19 PM
If the guy suspects that the LAGs after him are likely to give him action, and if as you say he is tight and knows his game yet still prepared to play this hand heavily, then you gotta think he has a monster..... perhaps prudence is best here and a fold is in order.

Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Santino67 on September 07, 2008, 23:28:35 PM


How much did you start with Daniel?


I sat down with £200, but there"s no cap on the max sit down at the table.

Quote
I"d be tempted to re-raise as it"s only KK or AA that"s beating you. If the SB has either then he"s definitely calling or going over the top but the other muppets will surely get scared off if they even have half a piece of grey matter in their skulls.


What range do you think he could have, considering that he"s a tight player and knows there are some maniacs still to act (and me of course)?


If you re-raise and he comes over the top then you throw the Queens away. If he calls then chances are he"s playing with AK imo. He may well still be playing KK or AA but calling pre-flop would only encourage a muppet show post flop so better to get this guy 1 to 1. The only alternative is throw it away pre-flop...........but 3rd best starting hand in a cash game when you"re already £160 in profit????? I"d be re-raising him in a heartbeat coz he"s almost certainly by now also identified, with any decent hand, that there"s money to be had from the fish on the table. He may well be raising pre-flop with that in mind.
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: lukybugur on September 08, 2008, 09:29:59 AM
SB has 4 guys to act behind him with £31 in the pot already so the £60 is a massive overbet. Given that it"s been passed round to him with you (tight?) and three LAGs yet to act, I"m thinking he has a marginal hand that he wants to take the pot down there and then to save him having to play it out of position - anything from AQ and better.

I"d be tempted to raise it up to around £140 to get more information in that no one holding less than KK and AA will have the right / balls to call. It would be a loose and probably uncharacteristic re-raise by you and it may be giving your hand away as if you held KK or AA yourself, you"d prob flat call and want to see him make a standard 3/4 pot continuation bet (£100ish) on the flop.

It"s v likely you"ve got at least £140 goin in on this hand if you do decide to play it at all. Pushin that £140 in OTT pre-flop WILL get respect and if he calls or re-raises, yeah, he has you beat, you have all the info you need and can fold leaving yourself £220 left to play with.

That"s how I"d be looking at it anyway. I"m a donk tho!

Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 08, 2008, 10:36:48 AM
Interesting thoughts, and obviously it"s impossible to know all the nuances at the table from a post on a web forum.

I"ll let a few more people respond before I post what actually happened (not that it"s particularly important, but it"s interesting nevertheless).
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Swinebag on September 08, 2008, 10:42:25 AM
I am no cash player, but I"m bored and free at work so....

call isn"t too bad, but you will need to flop the set to win, assuming the straddlers are along for the ride(I think the implied odds are good for calling here). If you miss then one pair OOP will almost always result in giving the pot up

Folding has to be out of the question, your hand is too strong

Any reraise pretty much committs you to the hand, so the best raise IMO is the shove.

I think just because the SB is tight, it doesn"t mean he cant raise it up with a big range and does not neccessarily have to have AA or KK.

My preferred choice is shove.... If SB has AA or KK, you can always suck out, or you can reload (you"ll get it back off the maniacs) If SB is tight because he"s playing scared (out of his bankroll) he may fold KK to your shove.

Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: noble1 on September 08, 2008, 11:43:51 AM
Posted by: Kinboshi
Everyone folds round to the SB, who raises up to £60.  The SB has been one of the tightest players at the table, and seems to know what he"s doing.  Whenever he"s been involved pre-flop, he"s had a decent hand.  He"s been on the table a while, and knows that the players to act after me have been very eager to call or re-raise with a wide range of cards.

right if i"m reading this right , its no-limit your playing [i ask because i associate straddling with limit poker] and i take it 3 are in the pot when SB raises [is this a re-raise Kinboshi as again i find it confusing when u say everyone folds round to sb]
how much in pot when sb raises ???
anyhows going on what i make of it  :)  trust your read on the sb if he has raised 3 call stations like this chances are he has a big hand looking to get paid off by them,so going by your read QQ is a fold , you cant call it [NOT ENOUGH IMPLIED ODDS IF HE HAS AA OR KK AND YOU NEED SET] look for a better spot in position and play more post flop against the weak players and isolate them when you can..

also change seats and get the loose players to your right !!!   ;D

Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: noble1 on September 08, 2008, 12:08:49 PM

SB has 4 guys to act behind him with £31 in the pot already so the £60 is a massive overbet.


where do you get the £31 already in pot , i cant see that in history ??

:)
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: lukybugur on September 08, 2008, 12:46:51 PM


SB has 4 guys to act behind him with £31 in the pot already so the £60 is a massive overbet.


where do you get the £31 already in pot , i cant see that in history ??

:)


Quote
As was the norm at that time of the session, my BB was straddled round to £16


so ...

Seat 9 (SB) £1
Seat 1 (Daniel on BB) £2
Seat 2 has straddled with £4
Seat 3 has straddled with £8
Seat 4 has straddled with £16

Quote
Everyone else folded round to SB


So £31, no?
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Eck on September 08, 2008, 12:52:09 PM
Blatant I won £160 in a cash game post obv.

btw i make it £200 and get them in and lose when one of the straddlers can"t let go of A8, SB has jacks.. ;D
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: lukybugur on September 08, 2008, 12:58:06 PM
lol, me thinx Eck has your number on this one Dan :D
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Santino67 on September 08, 2008, 15:21:08 PM

Blatant I won £160 in a cash game post obv.

btw i make it £200 and get them in and lose when one of the straddlers can"t let go of A8, SB has jacks.. ;D


Nice one James, don"t you just love those rag aces  :"(

I reckon the SB has pocket 8"s
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Swinebag on September 08, 2008, 15:41:05 PM



SB has 4 guys to act behind him with £31 in the pot already so the £60 is a massive overbet.


where do you get the £31 already in pot , i cant see that in history ??

:)


Quote
As was the norm at that time of the session, my BB was straddled round to £16


so ...

Seat 9 (SB) £1
Seat 1 (Daniel on BB) £2
Seat 2 has straddled with £4
Seat 3 has straddled with £8
Seat 4 has straddled with £16

Quote
Everyone else folded round to SB


So £31, no?




A great start to the new term, Neil - Excellent maths - A*
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Santino67 on September 08, 2008, 15:44:40 PM




SB has 4 guys to act behind him with £31 in the pot already so the £60 is a massive overbet.


where do you get the £31 already in pot , i cant see that in history ??

:)


Quote
As was the norm at that time of the session, my BB was straddled round to £16


so ...

Seat 9 (SB) £1
Seat 1 (Daniel on BB) £2
Seat 2 has straddled with £4
Seat 3 has straddled with £8
Seat 4 has straddled with £16

Quote
Everyone else folded round to SB


So £31, no?




A great start to the new term, Neil - Excellent maths - A*



:D :D :D Shouldn"t you be in class Rob?
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Swinebag on September 08, 2008, 15:47:27 PM
This is the 21st century Grant, I finished at 2.50

I just stuck neil"s post on the board as an example of why we show working out!!
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: lukybugur on September 08, 2008, 15:55:21 PM
MY FIRST A - it only took me 31 years!

I"d NEVER have thought it would be in Maths either - Celebrate! ( I"m just glad I was right :D )
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Santino67 on September 08, 2008, 16:28:00 PM
I had guys straddling me last week at the Vic cash table. I told them "get the f*** off me!"  >:(
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 08, 2008, 16:41:17 PM

Posted by: Kinboshi
Quote
Everyone folds round to the SB, who raises up to £60.  The SB has been one of the tightest players at the table, and seems to know what he"s doing.  Whenever he"s been involved pre-flop, he"s had a decent hand.  He"s been on the table a while, and knows that the players to act after me have been very eager to call or re-raise with a wide range of cards.


right if i"m reading this right , its no-limit your playing [i ask because i associate straddling with limit poker] and i take it 3 are in the pot when SB raises [is this a re-raise Kinboshi as again i find it confusing when u say everyone folds round to sb]
how much in pot when sb raises ???


Yes, it"s no-limit.  I"m in the BB for £2, UTG straddles to £4, UTG+1 to £8, and UTG+2 to £16.  Everyone folds to the SB who is first to do any betting after the cards have been seen.

Quote
anyhows going on what i make of it  :)  trust your read on the sb if he has raised 3 call stations like this chances are he has a big hand looking to get paid off by them,so going by your read QQ is a fold , you cant call it [NOT ENOUGH IMPLIED ODDS IF HE HAS AA OR KK AND YOU NEED SET] look for a better spot in position and play more post flop against the weak players and isolate them when you can..


That"s two of you who"ve said this now. Interesting...

Quote
also change seats and get the loose players to your right !!!   ;D


;D  That might have made sense, but other than the the SB and myself, everyone at the table was very loose.
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 08, 2008, 16:42:41 PM

Blatant I won £160 in a cash game post obv.


£200 actually now you mention it :D.

Quote
btw i make it £200 and get them in and lose when one of the straddlers can"t let go of A8, SB has jacks.. ;D


;D
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: lukybugur on September 08, 2008, 16:48:11 PM

Quote
btw i make it £200 and get them in and lose when one of the straddlers can"t let go of A8, SB has jacks.. ;D


;D


Does ;D mean he was right ... ?
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: WarBwastardo on September 08, 2008, 18:49:08 PM
I think I"d have a little cry at having to let such a strong hand go and muck.  You can"t just flat call as it risks inviting in the three stooges and once they"re involved you"re set mining (is that what the kids are calling it these days?).

It sounds from the original post like you felt you were beat, so it"s probably a good idea to go with your instincts.  The SB must be expecting a call so to play out of position with nothing sounds far less likely than him actually having a hand that beats your Queens. 

If you were going to play you have to raise to get it heads-up but it"s difficult to find an amount to raise without committing yourself to the pot and giving that this player is ostensibly tighter than an Italian waiters kecks, it"s probably prudent to just give up your hand and the £2 you have invested and wait for a better spot as you"re probably either in a race or a 4/1 dog for your whole stack.

Of course in reality I"d shove it all in, cause I"d almost certainly be drunk and I do that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Chipaccrual on September 08, 2008, 19:40:42 PM
Definite fold on the assumption that you are going to need to hit another queen to win the hand and with the likelyhood of a few more callers, that is not good odds.

But I hardly play cash, so what do I know.
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 08, 2008, 20:29:34 PM
Thanks for all the responses.

I folded.

I just couldn"t see what he could have that I was beating, other than JJ and I thought that unlikely.  It was the combination of his tightness and the LAGs still to act that convinced me that he wanted callers or even better for him, raisers.

If he"d bet £30 or less, I might have been tempted to call and set-mine, knowing that I could stack him if he did indeed have AA or KK - and hopefully I"d have another couple of passengers along for the ride.

But with the size of his bet and the size of the stacks at the table, I just didn"t think I could call.  So it was either a re-raise, or a fold.  A re-raise would see me committed, so it would have to be a shove really.

I just thought that it was too likely that he had me crushed, and looking back I think that I"d put him on too narrow a range - he might have done the same with TT or JJ.

Anyway, I did fold.  UTG+1 called.  The flop came 9-high, and the SB bet out and UTG+1 folded. 

SB showed kc kh.

I wanted to get other"s opinions to see if I just got lucky, or if my reasoning was sound.  I think it was a bit of both.
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: AMRN on September 08, 2008, 20:35:27 PM
yay i said fold (not sure I would have actually folded at the table though, but easy to make the play on a forum!)

Of course, if you had played along, the river was going to be a Q!!
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: kinboshi on September 08, 2008, 21:17:02 PM
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: noble1 on September 09, 2008, 00:16:02 AM

Thanks for all the responses.



But with the size of his bet and the size of the stacks at the table, I just didn"t think I could call.  So it was either a re-raise, or a fold.  A re-raise would see me committed, so it would have to be a shove really.

I just thought that it was too likely that he had me crushed, and looking back I think that I"d put him on too narrow a range - he might have done the same with TT or JJ. 



no you read the situation well, dont start saying you gave him a too narrow range because as you said the bet size plus your read equals big hand,, if it had been a really big raise say to 80 or 90 then i"d MAYBE count the chance of him having TT or JJ into his range.........

its a good read, a situation where to many players would lose there money by over playing there hand...[oo oo 2 queens shove it in,the tight player met have AK AQ JJ TT ooo i dont know !!! oh heck allllllll innnnnnnn lmao]
Play the players not your hand...... trust your read......... 
Title: Re: Cash game - QQ pre-flop
Post by: Santino67 on September 09, 2008, 19:47:50 PM
Nice lay down Daniel. TBH I"d probably have raised to £120 so would"ve donked off a few quid. May have been different if I"d been at the table a while, hard to tell.