Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Online Archive => Online Poker => General Online Poker Discussion => Topic started by: AMRN on October 06, 2008, 11:36:25 AM
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Started seeing these popping up all over the place now - 10 seat SNGs with top 5 taking the money equally - ie double your money.
In theory, any decent SNG player should be able to make steady (albeit slow) bankroll progress in these games...... BUT, does the 10% fee have a bearing and make the payout unreasonable? ie getting paid in 50% of your games would not be enough to break even.... in a $50+$5 game, the payout would only be $100, therefore $45 profit against a $55 stake.
Sounds like pretty poor value to me..... any thoughts?
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My general feeling towards these are that they might currently provide a good steady (albeit slow) bankroll build at $5 to $20 level where there are still maniacs playing and throwing away their chips.
I am fairly sure at higher levels where the majority play correctly you are just playing against variance so you will only cash around 50/50 and so the reg fee kills any profit.
Sure there will be some who make more but don"t see it as great value and they are boring as sin!
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They are good bankroll builders providing you cash 2 in 3, to give an ROI of about 20%.
I played 40 on BSQ and cashed in 23 giving me <5% ROI. However it does have a turbo structure which can rely on you needing to actually win a hand or 2 to get paid. There are alot of players who dont get the format and do crazy things (like betting into an empty sidepot when short stack is allin on the bubble)
To be honest, I got very bored playing them and didn"t enjoy playing them
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made $150 dollars playing on em last month $5.50 buy in
does help boost your bankroll but playing too much can stagnate your game as your playing to make the cut as opposed to trying to win the game
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I"ve been playing them on Pokerstars.
You really should be able to cash in at least 2/3 of them so I would recommend them as bank roll builders - - but they are boring to play.
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well, I started playing after I made my post, and I"m pleased to report that I have a much better ROI on these than anyone who has declared their ROI in this thread..... I have 81% which is the maximum with a 10% fee!!!!
[OK, off to play my second one now :) )
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well, I started playing after I made my post, and I"m pleased to report that I have a much better ROI on these than anyone who has declared their ROI in this thread..... I have 81% which is the maximum with a 10% fee!!!!
[OK, off to play my second one now :) )
I was impressed for a few seconds. Keep up the good work.
Would be interested to know what ROI poeple manage to turn on these over a reasonable number of games.
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I am 16 of 16 currently on these on 3 sites combined
Play them as a sat where you need to finish 5th or higher.
Avoid early gambles, and you"ll usually lose 2-3 players to mistakes in levels 1-2
win a hand levels 3-4 and cruise through
Its not poker, its nut peddling and mistake avoidance only
Biggest problems are boredom and I think it can spoil your broader game
If you need to build up a bankroll in a v low risk way though, recommended if you ahve patience!
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"patience required" / "boring to play"
This seems to be a running theme here. I suppose multitabling is a way forward here. No offence to our sponsors but I am going to take up leigh"s challenge on a site that has a longer clock than the 4 minute levels on BSQ/ipoker.
i"ll play 100 and report back in a week or so, with graph attached!
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That could be quite interesting, Rob. Prefer a PowerPoint presentation though. ;D
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I like the pie charts best
I wonder what the next post is going to say ::)
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Field of cones graph
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I like the pie charts best
I wonder what the next post is going to say ::)
Hmm, pie......
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Well, A N Other poker site gave me some temporary money to play with a couple of months back, and I stuck it into those SnGs. Low variance, I reckoned, and it"s merely a case of clinging on until the final five. Mind you, the all-in fest immediately after the bubble is always fun! Personally, though, 1st for more money is preferable, I think.
does the 10% fee have a bearing and make the payout unreasonable? ie getting paid in 50% of your games would not be enough to break even
You"ll need to win more than your stake in any SnG to break even, but if you"re better than the average player, this shouldn"t be a big problem. If you"re much better then I guess that top-heavy payments are the way to go. If you"re only marginally better then maybe this route makes more sense.
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Played 3,cashed 3,bored sh**less.
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Played 3,cashed 3,bored sh**less.
Blatant brag / "these games are beneath me" post! A poor one MickyP :)
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played 13 won 8 lost 5, tried playing 9 tables at once and this may have contributed to losing the first 3. ROI is a reasonable 12%. 87 to go
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Blimey Rob, 9 tables as once ? I have problems walking and talking at the same time ;D
Good luck with your experiment.
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played 13 won 8 lost 5, tried playing 9 tables at once and this may have contributed to losing the first 3. ROI is a reasonable 12%. 87 to go
Rob has become the APAT experimental guinea pig. If the ROI is good, I"ll half it to take into account he"s a much better player than me and might invest some bankroll myself.
Obviously I"ll need to see official graphical evidence before committing to anything.
To clear up the other issue, ways to stop boredom whilst playing these games.
1. Watch a film
2. I-Tunes
3. Surf the web
Any more ?
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OK, played 5 on Titan and 5 on Stars..... won 5/5 on titan but only 3/5 on Stars. Much easier on Titan, although both losses on stars were when I was all in preflop with AA and was outdrawn by KJ and 99..... the understanding of the other players on stars is so much higher than titan.
Loads of time spent for not a great deal of profit - I can make much more playing proper SNGs, but these are very low risk..... think I will try and grind a few more tomorrow on Titan.
Did worry about them spoiling my game.... but just made FT in The Sky Open (came 4th), so not too bad :) (sorry, brag post)
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Do u get any rakeback AMRM?
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For anyone playing these, BSQ charge the standard 10% fee for these. However, on stars they are 8% and 4% :o for turbos.
Come on ipoker/BSQ, pull yer fngers out!
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For anyone playing these, BSQ charge the standard 10% fee for these. However, on stars they are 8% and 4% :o for turbos.
Come on ipoker/BSQ, pull yer fngers out!
Looks like Stars have changed their fee for these today - I now see a $50+$2 game.... but yesterday I was playing $30+$3..... and that one has disappearead off the list now.
Do u get any rakeback AMRM?
No I play mainly on Stars and collect the FPPs
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virgin do these now too but the blind levels are 8 mins long
would think in these style of games then a turbo would be better suited
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virgin do these now too but the blind levels are 8 mins long
would think in these style of games then a turbo would be better suited
most definitely. played one with 10 min blinds, and it was ridiculously slow and boring. 5 mins on stars is good.... but 4 mins on iPoker is better
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For anyone playing these, BSQ charge the standard 10% fee for these. However, on stars they are 8% and 4% :o for turbos.
Come on ipoker/BSQ, pull yer fngers out!
Looks like Stars have changed their fee for these today - I now see a $50+$2 game.... but yesterday I was playing $30+$3..... and that one has disappearead off the list now.
Think a bunch of folk from Pocketfives contacted Pokerstars to get this changed:
http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-forums/7/just-noticed-on-stars_2E002E002E00_-3403722
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not read the thread, but would imagine there is some maths in there that shows how difficult it is for the average punter to make a profit in these and that they get killed by the 10% rake. Come on ipoker SORT IT OUT!!
My 100 game challenge is going disasterously. I am nearly half way through and have an ROI of 2%. I am playing tighter than a ducks arse and would like to report that my ROI is affected by a string of major donkey suckouts, but this simply isn"t the case! I am struggling with situations where the blinds are big, I am short stacked (<5BB) and the game is still 7/8 handed. I am finding myself trying to fold into the money, sticking my chips in with a weak hand (when this is not going to be possible) and no fold equity, getting called by a better hand that invariably holds up. If this was a normal 3 places paid STT, I would have been pushing much earlier and am wondering if a bit more short stacked aggression earlier would help?
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... If this was a normal 3 places paid STT, I would have been pushing much earlier and am wondering if a bit more short stacked aggression earlier would help?
I"ve been playing them on Pokerstars - I don"t think anybody wants to get knocked out, so aggressive play when you can still cause real damage should get disproportionately rewarded.
I"m trying to get a 100 game record to report on as well, but I have a short attention span - since keeping record I"ve managed to play 4 (2 x 2) - so it might take a while for me to get up to that sample size.
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thanks Jon. I think i"ll try cranking it up a bit. I"ve just got to make like Plug out of the Bash Street Kids
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not read the thread, but would imagine there is some maths in there that shows how difficult it is for the average punter to make a profit in these and that they get killed by the 10% rake. Come on ipoker SORT IT OUT!!
My 100 game challenge is going disasterously. I am nearly half way through and have an ROI of 2%. I am playing tighter than a ducks arse and would like to report that my ROI is affected by a string of major donkey suckouts, but this simply isn"t the case! I am struggling with situations where the blinds are big, I am short stacked (<5BB) and the game is still 7/8 handed. I am finding myself trying to fold into the money, sticking my chips in with a weak hand (when this is not going to be possible) and no fold equity, getting called by a better hand that invariably holds up. If this was a normal 3 places paid STT, I would have been pushing much earlier and am wondering if a bit more short stacked aggression earlier would help?
This was kind of my thinking on these.
Yes occasionally you get lucky and find 4/5 numptys who go to war and throw their chips away and you fly through to the $, happy days.
But when you find a table with only 1/2 numpties you are all holding on and it just becomes a crapshoot for the money, might as well click on the casino link and stick it on red.
I"m pretty sure correct strategy must be to play a more aggressive game in the early levels while everyone is passive and then you can take some shots when it gets to shove/fold time.
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I"m pretty sure correct strategy must be to play a more aggressive game in the early levels while everyone is passive and then you can take some shots when it gets to shove/fold time.
thats pretty much how i have been playing them and it seems to be working ;D
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thats pretty much how i have been playing them and it seems to be working ;D
Damn that means we have to play tight again dont we :-\
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thats pretty much how i have been playing them and it seems to be working ;D
Damn that means we have to play tight again dont we :-\
Damn it! :)
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thats pretty much how i have been playing them and it seems to be working ;D
Damn that means we have to play tight again dont we :-\
which in turn means you can now loosen up again ???
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I"ve played four - bubbled in the first one and cashed in other 3...
The first one was EXTREMELY boring and I was playing with the mindset that I"ve got to make the money and was playing tighter than a ducks arse but I found opening up a tournament to concentrate on fully and just leaving the Double or Nothing in the background makes me play cards I normally would in the normal positions I would automatically as I forget for a minute it"s a double or nothing due to other tourny taking my concentration...
I also found that agression is the key. Nobody wants to not cash and everyone is waiting for the money right from the kick off so be agressive right from start and once you"re sitting on 2.5-3k you"re set to cruise into the money. Maybe need to make one or two more moves later in the game but thats it...
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ive noticed on the site where I play that the standard has improved dramatically last month i cashed 9times out of 10 over last 8 games ive only cashed 3 (tho admittedly did suffer some bad beats thru that) ive stopped playing for a week just in case its my mind set but may have to change the strategy now people are playing tighter
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Thought i"d give these a go and try and build my small bankroll. Only playing $5 10 seaters on Blue Sq. Bubbled in first two but have cashed in the next 7, will keep you informed of my progress. To try and beat the boredom I normally play 3/4 at a time.
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Played 4 of these on i-poker yesterday 2 $5, 2 $10 and cashed in them all. Generally found so far if you can get doubled early on (like AA v KK kind of thing) then you can steal almost every blind from position and cruise to the money.
Otherwise you are folding 99% of the time and just stealing from position to survive with atc until you either get a hand, get lucky or get caught.
If I don"t double then its basically a crap shoot to cash and prey I dont run into a hand stealing or get bad beated with a monster hand.
So, my new question is:
If I am above average player would playing DoN S&G or Heads Up matches be more profitable?
We are playing for the same prize money, normally at 1/2 the reg fee and HU must be a more skillful game than a turbo survival S&G, especially as players learn (in theory) how to play these games.
What do you think?
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I think HU will have wider variance because you have to play such a high proportion of hands - and that this won"t be counteracted sufficiently by the extra skill you might bring to it.
But that"s part of the reason why building up a reasonable sample size on the double or nothing S&G"s is interesting because it might prove to be more like you suggest.
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I think HU will have wider variance because you have to play such a high proportion of hands - and that this won"t be counteracted sufficiently by the extra skill you might bring to it.
But that"s part of the reason why building up a reasonable sample size on the double or nothing S&G"s is interesting because it might prove to be more like you suggest.
Don"t think i have the boredom threshold to get to 100, not only are they just dull to play but is it me or does it take like 20 mins for i-poker to create a new tourney once the last has filled?
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I"m playing on Pokerstars, plenty of "action" - but still boring to play.
In fact, I"ve lost 6 games so far and in 4 of them it was because I was bored and started gambling to relieve the boredom.
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If I am above average player would playing DoN S&G or Heads Up matches be more profitable?
In my case, No!
the edge in being an above average player would result in proportionally more 1sts(over 2nds and thirds) in standard 10 player STTs.
if you are cashing 40% in a 10 man STT with more 1sts than 2nds and thirds you would need to be winning 70% of DoNs for the same ROI.
I haven"t played my 100 DoNs yet, but will not get 70 wins. Having said that there are players who will do better than 70%, but then again they may be able to do better than 40% cashes in STTs, so again I would probably "No" for players who are more than above average too.
Also, It is easier to learn a winning formula for DoNs than standard STTs, so weaker players will get better quicker at those than they would at standard STTs, thus reducing your edge further.
I"ll be back to 10 man STTs next week
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I"m playing on Pokerstars, plenty of "action" - but still boring to play.
In fact, I"ve lost 6 games so far and in 4 of them it was because I was bored and started gambling to relieve the boredom.
I did the same last night.
I was "experimenting" to see if I could push anyone off a hand in the bubble.
I was third in chips, guy who was second in chips (2 BBs more than me) raised 2.5xBB. I "woke up" with rag rag (think it was 47o) and was last to act in the BB so put him all in. He called with JJ (bad call I think) and I was gone, much to everyones hilarity I presume (given that chat is turned off in the bubble)
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If I am above average player would playing DoN S&G or Heads Up matches be more profitable?
In my case, No!
the edge in being an above average player would result in proportionally more 1sts(over 2nds and thirds) in standard 10 player STTs.
if you are cashing 40% in a 10 man STT with more 1sts than 2nds and thirds you would need to be winning 70% of DoNs for the same ROI.
I haven"t played my 100 DoNs yet, but will not get 70 wins. Having said that there are players who will do better than 70%, but then again they may be able to do better than 40% cashes in STTs, so again I would probably "No" for players who are more than above average too.
Also, It is easier to learn a winning formula for DoNs than standard STTs, so weaker players will get better quicker at those than they would at standard STTs, thus reducing your edge further.
I"ll be back to 10 man STTs next week
What about Heads Up matches tho?
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I dont play many HU matches, but would think that my win rate would be better in DoNs........just.
I would have thought that there are less weaker players playing HU STTs, but dont really know tbh
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I would have thought that there are less weaker players playing HU STTs, but dont really know tbh
Not on Pokerstars there aren"t.
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I would have thought that there are less weaker players playing HU STTs, but dont really know tbh
Not on Pokerstars there aren"t.
I played a HU tourney on stars and sharkscoped all of my oponents. All 4 were HU STT pokergods. I was getting pwned so much in one game that I asked the guy if he could see my cards.
His response was "pretty much"
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I would have thought that there are less weaker players playing HU STTs, but dont really know tbh
Not on Pokerstars there aren"t.
I played a HU tourney on stars and sharkscoped all of my oponents. All 4 were HU STT pokergods. I was getting pwned so much in one game that I asked the guy if he could see my cards.
His response was "pretty much"
lol
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as tighty says its about mistake avoidance , if u apply what u learn in mistake avoidance and apply it to ur game in other tournaments then surely this is a positive , as for the boredom factor , if u are playing game after game of DoN then yes it will get a bit boring but if u have a spare 30 mins or so and play then sparingly then ur roll will increase steadily coz u will have more focus , u will get loads of donks who will push/call with not a lot and hit , i tend to play decent/premium hands or see a cheap flop and although ive not kept any stats im cashing in a lot more than im losing
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It"s becoming not so much fun on Pokerstars.
The longer blind levels, and the general absence of enough players making mistakes means that most of them are lasting well over an hour.
They"re pretty much all getting to the stage where the relatively short stacks get to shove fold mode with 7 or 8 players left and the larger stacks become the short stack if they call and lose - which obviously drags it out even longer.
They"re still profitable but I"m thinking that HU sit and go"s might give me a higher ROI (it might take me a while to get a 100 of each though)
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finished the 100...see blog!
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Good stuff swine, had a read and decided to give one a crack.
Anyway I cant really comprehend why ppl would play full ring instead of 6 seated if the buyins are the same!?!?!?!?!!?
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Anyway I cant really comprehend why ppl would play full ring instead of 6 seated if the buyins are the same!?!?!?!?!!?
cos in a full ring game you can sit tight and wait for donks to make mistakes.... in a short handed game where you are in the blinds 33% of the time, you have to play more poker. Put simply, the full ring games are just easier.
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cos in a full ring game you can sit tight and wait for donks to make mistakes.... in a short handed game where you are in the blinds 33% of the time, you have to play more poker. Put simply, the full ring games are just easier.
Totally agree, full ring the chances are that you will get 3/10 absolute no clue player who go in the first couple of levels and 6 handed you are going to need to survive so many more times in push and fold stages.
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Both nine and six seaters pay the same % of entrants and in simplistic terms the nine seaters may be better as you can play more tables and they may be populated by worse players and game selection plays less of a role. But, I think that a decent stt player has a bigger edge in 6max precisely because of the reason AMRN states - players are in the blinds 33% of the time - meaning they"re forced into playing more hands and playing flops against players worse than you is good.
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Both nine and six seaters pay the same % of entrants and in simplistic terms the nine seaters may be better as you can play more tables and they may be populated by worse players and game selection plays less of a role. But, I think that a decent stt player has a bigger edge in 6max precisely because of the reason AMRN states - players are in the blinds 33% of the time - meaning they"re forced into playing more hands and playing flops against players worse than you is good
Sort of agree with your logic, but these games are so boring that I tend to play 3 or 4 at once..... and then the edge you have over poorer players is lost. Also, 4 short handed games at once gets a bit manic. 4 full ring games means I can just watch out for the nut hands and let the rest play themselves until the shovefest begins.
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How long on average(ish) do the 6 max and full ring DoN stt take to finnish?
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How long on average(ish) do the 6 max and full ring DoN stt take to finnish?
My average ATM is approx 23mins across various sites, all turbos, a variety of level lengths, 20 buyins in total. Unfortunately I have no comparable reference for the FR timings currently.
Maybe its my irreversable donkalogic but 6 handed still seems a shrewder option imho.
Only need to wait for 3 players to get knocked out,
Your more active which helps with the boredom factor,
The onus is on us to accumalate chips in 6m as aposed to sitting tight in FR which makes a better strategy for decent post flop players especially where a ragerty Two Pair crushes/stacks TPGK against weaker players.
Most importantly they are blatently going to be shorter which is an obvious
advantage with $p/h in mind, if you can multitable the same volumes as FR, possibly squeezing in a few more buyins in the same space of time.
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Only need to wait for 3 players to get knocked out,
But my point is that when you"re in the blinds 2 out of evey 6 hands, you can"t just wait for players to get themselves knocked out..... whereas in the full ring games, you"re only in the blind 2 out of 10 hands, and can afford to wait for action (and risk) to occur elsewhere.
For the DoN games, 6 seater require more play...... SO, you may as well play a normal 6 seat STT where the payouts are more favourable to the better player. The 10 seater DoN is just an easy way to print money.
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I agree, it only pays one more place.
If I get to three handed in a stardard six max STT, I really fancy taking it down. When I get to the last 5 in a full ring STT, I still feel that I have a lot to do, just to cash let alone taking it down.
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yup with you now, definately my upside down logic then! lol
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finished the 100...see blog!
where can i find this blog
personally i find them a bit slow - but if playing 3-4 at a time might help the boredom
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finished the 100...see blog!
where can i find this blog
http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=1502.0
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Just to let you all know I"m still working towards my 100 of these games. Had a problem with my computer so a little behind at the moment. upto 22 so far, will post again when I reach halfway.
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Rob were urs mostly or entirely turbos or non turbos?
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Rob were urs mostly or entirely turbos or non turbos?
all turbos, 5 min blinds.
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I got to 20 last night and dont think i can continue, managed to win 14/16 and have just been looking over my shoulder waiting for captain variance to catch me up and kick me in the ar$e. Well he arrived last night and bent me over big time. Thats it I quit DoN S&Gs they are just NO FUN!!
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thanks for the "head up" *cough* for the blog