Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: RioRodent on October 18, 2008, 17:41:12 PM
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Full Tilt Poker Game #8546128118: $14,000 Guarantee (64971183), Table 37 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:24:37 ET - 2008/10/18
Seat 1: replique36 (2,685)
Seat 2: msorin (3,555)
Seat 3: WestMist (3,460)
Seat 4: djhsch (3,515)
Seat 5: Mattutaylor (4,270)
Seat 6: RioRodent (5,380)
Seat 7: 1618bia (3,605)
Seat 8: Redfox28 (3,600)
Seat 9: LJABBOTT (2,930)
djhsch posts the small blind of 25
Mattutaylor posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RioRodent [ jc ad ]
RioRodent raises to 175
1618bia folds
Redfox28 calls 175
LJABBOTT folds
replique36 folds
msorin calls 175
WestMist folds
djhsch folds
Mattutaylor folds
*** FLOP *** [ 8s ts :3h: ]
RioRodent has 15 seconds left to act
RioRodent bets 400
Redfox28 folds
msorin calls 400
*** TURN *** [ 8s ts :3h: ] [ td ]
RioRodent has 15 seconds left to act
RioRodent checks
msorin bets 2,980, and is all in
What"s he got?
And what do I do?
And reasons for above?
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Full Tilt Poker Game #8546128118: $14,000 Guarantee (64971183), Table 37 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:24:37 ET - 2008/10/18
Seat 1: replique36 (2,685)
Seat 2: msorin (3,555)
Seat 3: WestMist (3,460)
Seat 4: djhsch (3,515)
Seat 5: Mattutaylor (4,270)
Seat 6: RioRodent (5,380)
Seat 7: 1618bia (3,605)
Seat 8: Redfox28 (3,600)
Seat 9: LJABBOTT (2,930)
djhsch posts the small blind of 25
Mattutaylor posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RioRodent [ jc ad ]
RioRodent raises to 175
1618bia folds
Redfox28 calls 175
LJABBOTT folds
replique36 folds
msorin calls 175
WestMist folds
djhsch folds
Mattutaylor folds
*** FLOP *** [ 8s ts :3h: ]
RioRodent has 15 seconds left to act
RioRodent bets 400
Redfox28 folds
msorin calls 400
*** TURN *** [ 8s ts :3h: ] [ td ]
RioRodent has 15 seconds left to act
RioRodent checks
msorin bets 2,980, and is all in
What"s he got?
And what do I do?
And reasons for above?
OK..always avoided saying what i think as i really don"t think im anyway near the standard of players on this site..but..
What"s he got? ..over cards....
And what do I do? ..fold
And reasons for above?....he has to respect your under the gun raise..and the call before his chance to act...as he flat called maybe ak, aqs....(aa, kk qq..only if he known to you as slow paying before??)... Your flop play standard continuation bet.."easy call" for him with stated hands i give him....maybe now added to his range a lucky flush draw
turn...checking..im guesin he has you on overcards...missing the flop...so wants to take it now..with the "safety " of a flush draw??.....hence the all in....good size pot...
think you have to fold....and wait for better position....but im guessin as my description doenst show anything amazin..i"m way off??
by good to find out...and ( so i learn...what u think of my analysis?..)..may not do this again....!!..lol
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wow i use ..... way too much
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What"s he got?
I"m guessing A8 and he"s happy to take down the pot here or that you"re loose / bad enough to call with 89s or 87s - a hand you could have raised with pf.
I may also play 88 or 33 this way, happy to play it this aggressively / tricky on the turn hoping you"re holding a 10 and and can"t let it go.
99 also possible. As another T has come out it makes it less likely you"re holding one so shoving you off an AK, AQ or AJ kinda hand here (before an overcard on the river makes it scarier for him) is quite likely IMO.
And what do I do?
Fold.
And reasons for above?
You"ve got A high.
Unless you"ve seen him float > shove before ...
His OPR stats (http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/fulltiltpoker/msorin/poker/results/E7AC858D3B564DABAAD07AD1EB2F200A.html?t=2) tell us he goes deep in these regularly in these so probably isn"t making this play lightly unless you"ve got him pegged as a loose / erratic player. (I see he finished 14th in this particular event ;) )
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What"s he got?
(I see he finished 14th in this particular event ;) )
No he didn"t!! :o
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Oops, sorry Alan, I was looking at yesterday"s result.
OK then. If he"s played it decently, 33, 88, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, AJ, T8s, AT, A3s, A8s. He"s not short enough that he has to be making reckless plays at this stage.
If he"s played it like a loon pf and got lucky, T3, 83.
If he"s played this hand with the intention of floating you (assuming he has you as tight passive), any two cards.
With AJo though, there"s just so much that beats you so fold is still the best play. Unless you have VERY good reason to suspect he"s stealing. If you"re wrong, calling would still leave you with 36BBs - more than enough to build it back up but really not worth it.
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dont think you can call, just say nb and move on (even if it isnt really) strange bet
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The cards are irrelevant in this play - he has position, and that"s what he"s beaten you with.
Lukybugur has defined a potential range, but the fact is he could have any two cards. He was getting better than 2:1 to call preflop in a low blind level, and had good implied odds if he caught a flop.... and if he missed the flop he would be able to play the hand in position.
Your continuation bet was standard, and if he is indeed playing position against you a floating call here is also standard if he is prepared to try and take it away from you later - he needs to find out what you do on the turn. If you have have missed the flop he probably thinks you will check the turn at which point he will bet...... the fact that the turn paired the board made his bluff a really easy one, and one that you would have difficulty calling even if you had AA.
Of course I may be talking rubbish and he may just be a donkey who called you preflop with 10 3!
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easy fold as you are only beating a bluff or semi bluff (and you may be losing to some of those too).
btw, I fold AJo UTG, but thats me
Given that you posted what seems like a standard hand, I reckon you made a hero call, he had 79s and missed giving you a monster pot. nh sir!!
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if he had a monster wouldnt he usually be value betting the turn rather than just shipping it in, its not like if he bets he has to go all in there.
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btw, I fold AJo UTG, but thats me
I"m quite happy to play AJo from an early position if bossing the table with a solid image or have the most chips at table looking to outplay others.
I fold my cards to the all in on this board. Too easy for him to have a Full house given his in the cutoff and 22-TT is pretty standard in this position for the educated player. Plus the other 6 PP"s in this range are beating us at this stage in the hand
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I have to say I"m rather suprised by all the "you have to fold" opinions... but then I have been playing almost exclusively cash for the last 8 months! (Not that I would make this play in cash game, just that I"m out of touch with playing tournies!)
Given that you posted what seems like a standard hand,
Is it really a standard play? Lev 3 of a deepstack tourney, just horse it all-in vs. an UTG raise from the big stack - regardless of whether it"s a bluff or not.
I reckon you made a hero call, he had 79s and missed giving you a monster pot. nh sir!!
Well I did make the call, not sure about the hero bit...
RioRodent calls 2,980
msorin shows [ jd kh ]
RioRodent shows [ jc ad ]
*** RIVER *** [ 8s ts :3h: td ] [ 9s ]
msorin shows a pair of Tens
RioRodent shows a pair of Tens
RioRodent wins the pot (7,360) with a pair of Tens
I thought it was quite a simple call;
i) if he has a ten or a FH, why go all-in?
ii) if he takes my check as weakness AND he has a hand with any showdown value ie. pocket pair, 8 or 3, or a big Ace why not take a free card?
iii) can"t have him on a premium pkt pr as no PF raise.
I think he has air;
i) if I"m wrong and he has a small pkt pr... I have 2 overcards and will *still have plenty of chips to play with* if I don"t improve.
ii) if I"m wrong and I"m drawing dead... I *still have plenty of chips to play with.*
*This is obviously key... if losing leaves me with less than 20BBs I would make a reluctant fold.
There have been a couple of other things quickly went through my mind, but I"ve been to bed since then and have forgotten... it"s an age thing you know!
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I like the thinking, Alan
I guess I play too many donkaments where players who shove their stacks with KJ, also donk shove with AK and AQ and also shove to "protect" with holdings like A3, A8 and PP below 77.
Given that you aren"t calling off your whole tourney, a call seems reasonable though given your reasoning.
I have to say that even IF I had gone through your reasoning and thought there was a chance I was ahead, I would probably still fold. It just seems too much of my stack and If the guy can shove with air you can surely catch him out later in a better spot with a better hand than Ace high.
wp anyway, where did you finish up?
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hmm i wont say to much,only this - once you get 2 callers with position on you what were your reads on them?[hand ranges,styles of play] once you decided to continuation bet on that texture of flop what was your plan if you was called? and how did you think the table perceived your own image to be to them?
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just some thoughts on hero calls in low buy in mtts - they are difficult because at this level so many players bet to represent the hand they actually do have,which is the opposite the point of poker.Also do you play pots out of position a lot? i like your recount of the situation BUT if this was a smart loose player this sort of bet is common at this level and they actually do have a hand.
Hence the question in the above reply as i"m intrested in your thought process pre-flop and on the flop.
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think you have to fold....and wait for better position....but im guessin as my description doenst show anything amazin..i"m way off??
by good to find out...and ( so i learn...what u think of my analysis?..)..may not do this again....!!..lol
Waz1892 by joining in and discussing these types of situations,no matter how experienced you are,it is always good input as it gets you thinking and you will get an insight into how others apply logic [good or bad] to there reads.Notice i say reads as it is mostly beneficial to have some sort of read on your opponent when making these sort of calls.
quote by hi_am_chris
if he had a monster wouldnt he usually be value betting the turn rather than just shipping it in, its not like if he bets he has to go all in there.
This is a common mistake that i used to make once and that i see others do time after time [its a leak in your game if you do it] why would you when you have a monster value bet giving away the strength of your hand? in poker the idea of betting is to confuse and induce incorrect calls or folds !!
My friend who i have been helping lately was doing this,it seems to me a more common mistake amongst intermediate skill level players, my friend was recently in a situation with AKo in the cut off with a lag on the button who used position very well and was giving my mate a torrid time coming over the top of him in the last few pots he had played. It was a six handed $1/2 nl ring game he raised $7 the button called , the flop came Ad 9h 5s my friend leads out for $12 the button calls the turn is 4c he bets $32 and the button folds,not such a mistake a lot would argue , he played the hand well sometimes i might check the turn just to mix up my game a bit but when i asked him his thought process on it he replied i didnt think that he had me beat but because of the last few pots i wanted to let him know that i had the goods................i explained to him that against this type of opponent that a check on the turn would be a better play "let him try and bluff the turn,there is no point in this situation in representing it,against this type of player and this situation a check is best,against most players the turn bet is the best option but sometimes the idea is to try and trick them" it wasnt untill i asked him his thought process that we found a leak in his game and now he is working towards fixing it with this ringing in his ears from me -
When you make a bet or raise on any street,ask yourself these questions.
What am i hoping my opponent does?
Is this bet likely to accomplish that?
What hands am i trying to get to fold?
What hands am i trying to get to call?
What hands am i trying to get to reraise?
What hand different from mine am i representing?
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Ask my self all those questions and then answer them in 20 seconds !!! :D. Always good to read your thoughts Noble, I don"t know how you have the time to post such detailed analysis.
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When you make a bet or raise on any street,ask yourself these questions.
What am i hoping my opponent does?
Is this bet likely to accomplish that?
What hands am i trying to get to fold?
What hands am i trying to get to call?
What hands am i trying to get to reraise?
What hand different from mine am i representing?
You"re dead right, and the ability to be able to answer these questions before you decide on what play to make, how to size your bet, etc, is often the difference between a losing player, a winning player, and a big winning player. However, where I come unstuck.... is how the hell do you apply these questions and consider the answers in the hot-bed of online play. Clearly in a live game you can take a few moments to consider these, and make plays based on this level of analysis... but online with the timer ticking away it"s just not possible, and gut instinct (or plain old maths) takes over - especially if the play you are trying to analyse occurs on one of four tables you"re playing at the time.
Having just re-read this para, I"m guessing that"s why I"m just an also-ran. I assume the top online players are indeed able to carry out thiis level of analysis in a few seconds, and that"s what separates "them and us".
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think you have to fold....and wait for better position....but im guessin as my description doenst show anything amazin..i"m way off??
by good to find out...and ( so i learn...what u think of my analysis?..)..may not do this again....!!..lol
Waz1892 by joining in and discussing these types of situations,no matter how experienced you are,it is always good input as it gets you thinking and you will get an insight into how others apply logic [good or bad] to there reads.Notice i say reads as it is mostly beneficial to have some sort of read on your opponent when making these sort of calls.
thank-you.
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agreed for some [most even] it is difficult online to do at first but with practice and with experience it will become 2nd nature to most people if you keep focused and follow a plan of improvement,with my friend we found one leak which now he is aware of and when a similar situation with the same type of player crops up the play will be automatic to him.
This is why i"m a great believer in reviewing games played and discussing hands and situations with friends and posting on the forums.
Here is a play i made recently - its a small blind v big blind situation, Pokerccini is a cunning tricky type who makes unorthodox plays but generally mixes it up well with solid stuff as well.He is not normally the type to limp from the small blind so my alarm bells were ringing and 22+ AKo+s AQs something in that range i was putting him on pre-flop,the previous 4 blinds battles we had i had won 3 of them reraising his raise twice pre-flop and reraising his lead on a ace flop the 3rd occasion,i pretty much felt that he thought i was yanking his chain and i was.On the flop he paused just for a split second but it was discernible [not is normal timing] , can any one guess what my thought process was at this point with the texture of the flop and with my hand?
Dealt to Robbieoz [7h 3d]
Pokerccini: calls 200
Robbieoz: checks
*** FLOP *** [2c Ah 5h]
Pokerccini: bets 400
Robbieoz: raises 400 to 800
Pokerccini: calls 400
*** TURN *** [2c Ah 5h] [4s]
Pokerccini: checks
Robbieoz: bets 2000
Pokerccini: calls 2000
*** RIVER *** [2c Ah 5h 4s] [Ks]
Pokerccini: checks
Robbieoz: bets 2400
Pokerccini: calls 1665 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (735) returned to Robbieoz
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Robbieoz: shows [7h 3d] (a straight, Ace to Five)
Pokerccini: shows [Kc Kd] (three of a kind, Kings)
Robbieoz collected 9780 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9780 | Rake 0
Board [2c Ah 5h 4s Ks]
Seat 8: Robbieoz (big blind) showed [7h 3d] and won (9780) with a straight, Ace to Five
Seat 9: Pokerccini (small blind) showed [Kc Kd] and lost with three of a kind, Kings
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Okay here goes, I don"t usually get involved in these analysis situations, but I will give this a go.
You have already stated that he is a tricky player, but solid and you have illustrated the hands that you have put him on and that the limp was suspicious.
Therefore you had to think that the Ace may have improved his hand, and as such the minimum bet was possibly a trap, so you had to raise in an effort to find out where you were, his call tells you he has something. The turn obviously doesn"t help his hand, but fills your gut shot, happy days. Pokercinni doesn"t put you on an Ace, as he feels you would have raised pre flop, and he still thinks he is ahead, and he is still trapping. You are no longer scared of a possible ace, and are pretty sure you are winning this hand, so your pot sized bet of 2000 is fairly standard, as you feel if he has a big Ace he is going to call. The King on the river doesn"t change anything for you, the possible flush has missed and even though it may have improved his hand, you are now sure you have the nuts. I think his check on the end is now not to get you to bet, I think he is scared of the straight, as you have indicated strength, and is hoping to get out of the pot with a win and something back if he loses. Your bet putting him all in is again a straight forward move for you. And with trips he is pot committed and has to call.
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thanks Mikeyboy9361
Therefore you had to think that the Ace may have improved his hand, and as such the minimum bet was possibly a trap, so you had to raise in an effort to find out where you were, his call tells you he has something. The turn obviously doesn"t help his hand, but fills your gut shot
your anaylisis is pretty much ther mikey, yes it was a flyer at a trap that i sometimes make in position but i try to do it with a read,the reason i did it was stack to blinds i was about 26bb , not great but still with some play.Pokercinni only had around 10bb left and tried to slow play [KK] it to gain chips [mistake] when the ace came the pause made me pretty sure he didnt have it so that narrowed my read of his possible range to 22-KK my min raise on the flop was an attempt to confuse Pokercinni and to fish if he had hit a set,i use the minraise only when the blinds are high relative to the stack sizes , the raise also i hoped would buy me 2 free cards to hit a hidden straight with Pokercinni not sure if i was playing a raggy ace or that i had some sort of draw or just a pair like himself,when the turn card was my bingo card i had to think how to extract the rest of Pokercinni"s chips.When he checked the turn my turn bet was designed to hide my straight as Pokercinni would now mostly discount a flush draw from my range as he would think i would take a free card and it would make A3o or 34h look unlikely holdings, but i figured he might peg me for 66 77 a bluff and maybe still a raggy ace -A6,7,8 maybe 22 55 44 but with him only having around 9bb left i favoured the bet would look more like a bluff and that he would check raise me and go all in.He only smooth called which was strange and the check call on the river was as well, he later told me he had wished he had folded as he was stumped as to what i had on the turn,AND hoped i was bluffing lol .... but he never explained why he just called...
I make plays like this in position when deeper stacked as well when heads up in a pot when i read weakness in my opponents as sometimes [not very frequently] i will play any 2 cards in position and if i choose to check , call or raise when i have a gutshot it does tend to catch people out.If they re-raise me on the flops or bet heavily on the turn i have a hand i can throw away easily also it works the other way as now other players at the table now know i"m capable of re-raising weak holdings which is handy if i do catch something stronger.
Thats pretty much how i think through this sort of situation along with reads and timing tells , hope it helps you in some way [either trying it or dismissing it :) ]
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how many chips did u start the hand with?
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10465 chips around 26bb
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the raise also i hoped would buy me 2 free cards to hit a hidden straight
I love this play!
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as some of you might suspect i do admire annette15 on the way she approaches poker [experimenting] and her thought process are intresting.
here is a link to 3 situations and a insight into how she breaks down each scenario presented to her.
http://www.insidepokermag.co.uk/poker/strategy/7515/hand_analysis.html
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as some of you might suspect i do admire annette15 on the way she approaches poker [experimenting] and her thought process are intresting.
here is a link to 3 situations and a insight into how she breaks down each scenario presented to her.
http://www.insidepokermag.co.uk/poker/strategy/7515/hand_analysis.html
I can"t get link to work?..anyone else?
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seems fine ..