Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: BOINGBLITZ on November 05, 2008, 00:59:00 AM
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Final Table for a $200 seat for the Ladbrokes Forum Tourney at DTD on Nov 22nd. There are 2 seats available plus cash for 3rd and 4th and there are 9 players left.
I am chip-leader with approx 17k and my oppo is 2nd with approx 15k.
On button, I call for 900 to make it 1800 with
kd qc
Oppo raises in BB to 4200 so for 2400 more, I call as i think he could see my limp as an opportunity to make a move on me AND that I will have position on him post-flop.
Flop comes down
ad1 qd jd
....and he pushes all-in.
What would you do ??
I will post the answer tomorrow
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It"s difficult to see any scenario where you aren"t favourite to win this hand unless he flopped the flush but that seems unlikely as he"d be Jack-high.
Play for the win...call.
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conversely, I would be folding here. If it were a straight forward MTT, I would consider taking the gamble, but in a satellite where I am ahead of the average chip stack, I would not take the risk - no need.
That said though, I don"t think I would be in this situation..... I wouldn"t open-limp on the buttom with KQ. As chip leader, I would either fold as there"s no need to play the hand (with the game being a satellite), or I would raise big (to indicate I"m not going away). The Big Blind then needs a hand on which he"s willing to stake his entire tourney - his range should be two hands only there.
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conversely, I would be folding here. If it were a straight forward MTT, I would consider taking the gamble, but in a satellite where I am ahead of the average chip stack, I would not take the risk - no need.
That said though, I don"t think I would be in this situation..... I wouldn"t open-limp on the buttom with KQ. As chip leader, I would either fold as there"s no need to play the hand (with the game being a satellite), or I would raise big (to indicate I"m not going away). The Big Blind then needs a hand on which he"s willing to stake his entire tourney - his range should be two hands only there.
agreed. no need to play this pre-flop since your the chip leader. will be many more blind-stealing opportunities where you can steadily build your stack with no risk, which is what its all about in sats.
if i were to hazard a guess i think you called he showed a set of jacks and u hit the nuts?
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Id say he may of hit trips, the all lin shove looks like he is scared of the flush draw so i guess he is hoping to end the action there. I reckon folding is the correct action in this instance.
Be interesting to see what actually happened
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I"m confused Brian.
I"m not fully clear what the blinds are here. You did say you were on the button but called the 900 to make it 1800 and he then put in another 2400 to make it 4200. Did you mean you were on the SB??? (I noticed you didn"t put what the SB did)
In which case you were first to act after the flop.
more info please, because it does make a difference to my thinking and actions
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Hmmmm. I"d think he either had a cack ace, or sh.it all.
Had he been defending his big blind doggedly?
When the ace drops he"s thinking that as you didnt raise it up, you haven"t paired it, so pushing either with a weak paired ace or even a load of trash like 7 2 off will take him the pot. He"d only be called by a jammy flopped flush or QJ.
Seeing as you have the flush and straight draws, and middle pair good kicker, I"d call and get ready to take the pot then fold all the way to Nottingham!
I reckon you"re ahead at this point, but get sucked out on. Thats how the game works, isn"t it?!
In future though, I"d think that raising up with that hand would be a better option, then if he shoves pre flop you can get away much easier.
BOING!
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being a big stack with a big stack to follow you could easily fold
but at this stage of the tourney, folded to me im raising with your hands but not a big raise to make it look as if im trying to steal blinds
if im re-raised by the other big stack or he goes all in - i fold (but make it look like im giving it some thought 1st)
then on this flop, after he called my raise im happy to call his shove
but his small raise pre flop looks an attempt to steal with virtually 2 cards
chances are he does not have the flush but you still have a healthy stack to play poker with so im folding
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I,m calling here
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Must agree with few others either fold pre flop or raise
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On button, I call for 900 to make it 1800
Oppo raises in BB to 4200 so for 2400 more, I call as i think he could see my limp as an opportunity to make a move
Sorry none of this makes sense, did you min raise? but then you say you had limped?
if he made it 4200 it would cost you 3300 to call?
more info on blinds and antes please....
Also if you raise pre-flop you can define the hand range of your opponents better when they re-raise or call,just a thought !!!!
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Bearing in mind the state of play at this point would not even be in the hand no need with these cards.You are comfortabley placed without the need to risk marginal hands.however if you decide to enter the pot you should raise.
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On button, I call for 900 to make it 1800
Oppo raises in BB to 4200 so for 2400 more, I call as i think he could see my limp as an opportunity to make a move
Sorry none of this makes sense, did you min raise? but then you say you had limped?
if he made it 4200 it would cost you 3300 to call?
more info on blinds and antes please....
What i said too!!
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Sorry for confusing you guys......and I REALLY appreciate your feedback on this.......the blinds were 800 /1600.
I DID call him and as a few of you correctly pointed out he DID have a genuine hand in Q-Q.
The turn was the
6c
but the river came down as
tc
....to complete my straight, and giving me a massive 30k+ in chips, which I then turned into first place to win the seat.
What REALLY got to me was that he then went on the Forum and slagged me off like you wouldn"t believe. Why can"t people just accept that sometimes you are going to get outdrawn >??
I can appreciate the reasoning in that I maybe shouldn"t have been in the hand at all, but sometimes NOT trying to steal the blinds can also paint a confusing picture ?
I thought he was raising me pre-flop just to get me out of the hand and say "If you don"t raise, I will !!"
But I read his small raise as weak, hence my call. If I miss the flop I can then fold if he bets out. But once I hit that flop, with 12 outs, I just didn"t see how I could possibly bin them, the reasoning being that if I do win, I virtually have the seat in the bag. Ironically, I later folded A-K twice and Q-Q....ALL pre-flop !!
His comments on the board were along those lines of I shouldn"t be in the hand....but a few also reasoned that his raise was crap ! He didn"t agree as he was such a classy player !
His comment of "I ain"t gonna go now as if I see this player I will lump him one !" didn"t reek of class to me !!
Again, thanx for your feedback guys.
BOING BOING !!
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first off i am going to number some of your quotes just to break down your play , his play and your thinking / logic process to this situation..
1.I am chip-leader with approx 17k and my oppo is 2nd with approx 15k.
2.On button, I call
3.Oppo raises in BB to 4200
4.the blinds were 800 /1600.
5.But I read his small raise as weak
6.I thought he was raising me pre-flop just to get me out of the hand and say "If you don"t raise, I will !!"
7.I just didn"t see how I could possibly bin them
8.Why can"t people just accept that sometimes you are going to get outdrawn
9.If I miss the flop I can then fold if he bets out
10.but sometimes NOT trying to steal the blinds can also paint a confusing picture
11.I call as i think he could see my limp as an opportunity to make a move on me
Quote from David Sklansky
The psychology of poker is an important aspect of the game.You should think not only about what your opponents have,but about what they think you have and about what they think you think they have.
You must go through these thought processes against GOOD PLAYERS , against expert players it becomes even more difficult and complex.
On the other hand against weak players because players are not thinking on such an advanced level the best strategy is to play your cards in a basic straightforward way.
Questions i"d like to ask you and for you to go away and think about BOINGBLITZ.
1. Do you think limping 1st into a pot from late position with a fairly strong hand is the best way to play it?
2.Do you see every 2.5bb ish raise pre-flop as a weak bet?
3.Did you consider any hand range for your opponent based on any previous plays?
4.You say it was a weak raise even though your opponent has put in 30% of his stack,and yet you only call , why not re-raise him pre-flop?
5.In reflection do you think you are a bit of a call station pre-flop / post flop?
6.Did you have a plan if say that flop came ace queen jack rainbow?
7.Did you at any stage consider stack size to blind size?
8.Do you think your opponent played this hand in a straightforward way based on what and how he perceived you?
9.Do you think his chip stack size dictated his bet on the flop? or was it just a player with a made hand protecting it?.
10.On the flop did you consider odds or his possible hands at any stage?
11.So if he had gone all in pre-flop you would consider this a strong move?
12.Do you think you played your hand well?
13.Can you be honest and critical enough in evaluating your own game to make changes?
14.When you read or post on forums do you only listen to answers you want to hear?
There so many more questions i could put in especially some more psychology type ones ;D but please think this hand through again , there is a lot to learn from it.
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i await your answer :o
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Hi Noble. I don"t think I have ever spoken to anybody who thinks every hand thru to the same degree that you do, I certainly haven"t got the mental capacity to do so ;)
I have a reasonable understanding and have read a few books and magazines, I play APAT events and mainly cash on line, and am what I would class as a social player. I am a winning player ( not fortunes ) but I am in front. I recently won a small tournament by playing my way, which relies a little on maths, a lot on what I have read, and also what I would call feel. This is something you can"t coach and that is what makes the greats great (certainly not me!), don"t you think sometimes that you can out think yourself?
Where do you play? Are you a winner? Do you play APAT events either live or on line? Would just be nice to know :)
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check previous posts my stats are there , also my online name is by my apat name.
quote - don"t you think sometimes that you can out think yourself
good question but here is mine to you Mikeyboy9361 if you read any post in which i post i will try and get the person asking the question to think about there game and try to get them to analyze themselves.
Am i really out thinking myself? err no but i will try get others to think about there own games.
http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=2076.0
quote - and also what I would call feel. This is something you can"t coach and that is what makes the greats great
expand on this please Mikeyboy9361 is it just feel? and who would you put forward as a great great player? and how do you think they have learnt?
question for you Mikeyboy9361 - When you read or post on forums do you only listen to answers you want to hear?
also what are the motives of posting on forums and how do you get better or improve at poker,do you have to think about it?
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Hi Noble
No I can"t really quantify "feel" it is like instinct, and is really just an ability to come to the correct decision and action without having a logical explanation. It is not exclusive to Poker, but in many sporting domains, you will find the guys at the top of their game just "know" when to do certain things and when not do others. Ask them why they did it and they cannot give a rational answer.
Do I want to hear or read only things I want to hear? No not at all, it is always nice to have your peers compliment you on a job well done or a hand well played, but the thing that I enjoy most about this forum is the many and varied answers to different situations.I was in no way trying to denegrate you or your opinions, just to point out that your anwers ( and questions) seem to have far more depth than most.
I was asking about your own results on the Poker circuit as I was interested in seeing whether all your theories had actually translated into tournament victories, or big cash wins. I don"t have any Poker tracking soft ware or Sharkscope and am unable to check this sort of stuff out.
Obviously the best players cannot get by on instinct alone, and have learned from experience. Nowadays there are so many more learning tools out there for would be students of the game, but in my opinion there is no substitute to playing the game, either live or on line. Doyle, Slim, Wendell and the boys had no Cardrunners, to fall back on they learned from playing the game, and from the old fashioned forum, chatting about hands in the bar!
Who are the Greats of the game. Doyle, Hellmuth, Negreanu, Ivey. Are all names that immediately spring to mind and their results stand the test. I personally feel that Doyle cannot live with the newer, younger, fitter breed, and my personal favourite is Alan Cunningham.
So keep posting, they are always entertaining and informative.
Which other forum could you have such a well mannered discussion?
:D
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Well thought out sir, very good read indeed.
You have to feel sorry for Doyle though , he did run hands out time and time again with a pack of cards [no pokerstove] but if he was 40 years younger i truly believe he"d eat up most players.He doesnt play live mtts much now but from what i"ve seen of him on High Stakes Poker the guy had every player at the table well pegged out.
I think its season 4 where he calls Ted Forrest an idiot under his breath which told me the old timer still had fire in his belly , classic laugh out loud moment for me.
Just to add to what you think makes the difference between very good players and the truly great player is for me a big heart and balls - you need these in abundance to bluff mr mathmatics or mr intellectual giant off a giant pot on the river.That for me is what sets certain players apart.
My motives for posting on forums is that it gives me an insight into how different players think / react and what the latest fad move is [utg the new button,reverse floating etc etc] also it helps me to constantly think about my own game.
regards+gg
noble
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Top 100th post and every one in the strategy section. Keep "em coming noble1!!
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I NEVER mind anyone giving an opinion on my game and you certainly have given me something to think about.
The real reason that this one got to me was the guy"s reaction to losing though, rather than anything he or I did in the hand.
My recent form has not been what it was 2/3 months ago online......ironically, I have played 3 live games since coming back from my holiday"s and Final-Tabled all three.
When I have these bad spells I always try to analyse my own game to try and cut out some flaws as it cannot all be down to bad luck. I did this after winning this seat and 2 days later got a first place on William Hill for £770.
I almost made it back-to-back wins but my all-in on the button with 10-10 got called by the chip-leader at my table (calling for 3600 of his 6200 stack, having committed 900 pre-flop) with 5-6 sooted......and he of course made a straight.
I guess what goes around comes around in this game eh ??!!
Once again, appreciate all the comments made......we ALL need to constantly improve at this game so I don"t know why anyone could possibly not appreciate your detailed and well thought-out breakdown of my play.
boing boing !!
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The real reason that this one got to me was the guy"s reaction to losing
If i ever make a mistake and get a good suck out on someone , if they do go on tilt and rant + rave , i just agree with them , tell them how unlucky they were etc etc and if i"ve knocked them out a few gg wp sir u out classed me there gr8 play in the chatbox tends to shut them up,also for some reason every now and again it frustrates them even more lmao then i turn chat off lol ;D
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I agree, In the thread I started, I got a load of abuse for poor play (and this was a live tourney!)
I just said "you outplayed me, you must have been happy with my call, I just got lucky"
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I"m not quite so understanding of abusive players - they have no right to behave in that way even if they were ahead when the chips went in. I certainly don"t agree with them if I run into one. Players who abuse others for bad play are the lowest form of poker life. In my opinion, anyone who has chips is entitled to spend them on any cards they like - if they suck out on me then so be it. You just have to laugh at how the cards come out in unexpected sequences sometimes. If the odds are 80/20 in your favour, you will lose one in five - you have to accept that; not expect to win all five and then cry when you lose one. Anyone who can"t take a beat should give up poker, cos they"ll never enjoy the game.
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Well put john. I agree that it isn"t on and shouldn"t be tolerated. Invariably there is little you can do about such people. I just tend to find agreeing with them and telling them how good they are, makes them even more tilty ;D
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I"m not quite so understanding of abusive players - they have no right to behave in that way even if they were ahead when the chips went in. I certainly don"t agree with them if I run into one. Players who abuse others for bad play are the lowest form of poker life. In my opinion, anyone who has chips is entitled to spend them on any cards they like - if they suck out on me then so be it. You just have to laugh at how the cards come out in unexpected sequences sometimes. If the odds are 80/20 in your favour, you will lose one in five - you have to accept that; not expect to win all five and then cry when you lose one. Anyone who can"t take a beat should give up poker, cos they"ll never enjoy the game.
Good post, and I completely agree with you...... I just wish I could remember this when the frikkin donkey makes the bad call and hits!