Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: THEGUY84 on January 09, 2009, 13:11:40 PM
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Over the last few weeks I have been playing a lot of tournaments online. I have been getting fairly deep, the last few event I have been say in the the top 10 with say 30 runners left. I then seem to make the wrong move at the worng time into a big hand or I make a big call on a bluff and they hit mirical.
I just feel like my end game I.E when I gets down to the buisness end of poker I cant seem to get it right to the end as often as I would like.
What are your thoughs on this? And any tips?
kenny
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Yeah run better imo...no need for thanks... :)
Stick up some hands that you think contributed, you know by now it isn"t as simple as saying "yeah do this"
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OPR ppl and look for a ridicoulsy high ITM %
small bet the chit out of them, if you get raised you can fold and wait for cards or reraise.
if you get called, small bet the chit outta them again...
Smaller is the new bigger imo.
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Yeah run better imo...no need for thanks... :)
Stick up some hands that you think contributed, you know by now it isn"t as simple as saying "yeah do this"
this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
its all about patience,aggression and picking the right spots...knowing when to change gear up or down...attacking the blinds if they do not defend a lot...being aware of who has tightened up to much and vice versa...attacking the scared players trying to move up the ladder by playing to safe....being aware of stack sizes... etc etc etc
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Hey guys looking for your thoughts on this.
I have been playing a lot of tournament poker recently, I have been getting pretty deep in most and sitting in say the top 10 with 30 people left with from 1000 runners etc, but I just seem to mess it up, well somtimes cash in most and I do seem to get decent chip count but dont know where I am going wrong.
I feel like I seem to make right move wrong time too much at this stage or make a good read and guy hits mirical. I feel like I need to develop my game in the later stages of events when it really counts i.e wehn money is good.
use guys got any advice/tips to help improve this part of my game??
Kenny
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This is where a lot of people have concerns about their game.
A lot of time it"s simply variance at play. Sometimes it"s because you might be playing too tight/too loose, or not reacting to the change in gears from the other players.
One thing you have to be aware of is that if you are just trying to ladder from a long way out, you aren"t going to play optimally. In fact, if others notice a player doing that it is exploitable.
One reason that people try to ladder is that they are playing in a tournament where the money means a lot to them. They play scared.
You"re right though, it"s at these stages of tournaments when it really counts.
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I"m seeing double.
Isn"t this thread in the academy section now?
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oops yeah managed to post it twice. didnt think i posted it right the first time.
Prob best reply to one or other posts here of in academy
Well I think I may open may game up too much.
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So you didn"t like our replies previously so just ignore that and start again :D ??
Dan is correct 1st is thing don"t panic....was playing on wed night and down to 2 tables it plainly obvious quite a few hadn"t been that far before. There were about 4 or 5 guys who would open raise 6x and when everyone obv folds they show (was never lower than AK QQ + :D)
This makes it so exploitable it is brilliant. so guy opens 6x , shows QQ next hand he opens 2x.......immed gets repopped and passes. Guy makes it 6x again (not joking this was becoming standard yet i was still getting away with 2.5/3x blind steals with filth) all fold, next hand i nick his bb with 29 i think.
It is all relative to stack sizes to how active you need to be etc and again there is no set formula just keep thinking what you are doing. It does get fairly straightforward when you get to the end and some of the time it does involve having the studs to shove them in to pick up dead money if you can identify people that won"t play back and sometimes it is laying a hand down that you think you should really be playing when you get shorthanded etc.
Said it in the other thread you started, post hands that you think have been contentious and may have caused you to not go as far as you thought you would. If you are getting to the last 30 of fields of over 300 on a regular basis though i wouldn"t worry too much tbh it will come.
Edit: sorry typed all this out and you have replied now but cba to remove post. Give examples of opening game up as it isn"t a bad thing as long as you know what you are trying to achieve.
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Thanks eck for posting! I shall look over my hand history over the next few days and see if I can find any which may show up some probelms.
Like last night playing 6 handed tourney, deep in tourney I was in say top 10 guy on imediate right button raises and raises from cut off all the time showing wide range of hands. So Im in big blind he raised again so, I re raises him. He flat calls. I have junk. A raggy flop I check he bets and I reraise again as he continuation bet all the time. Then he shoves all in so, I am beating nothing. So fold, that hand cost me a lot so few hand later fairly short stack. He raises button again so a shove with ace 10 for 6000 more. He call with 4 6 and hit 6. So me out pretty standard shov I think but big stack luck always hits.
so what you think? obv its only one hand but is fairly standard for me I think.
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Dan is correct 1st is thing don"t panic....
2nd thing is...
Don"t take the bad beats out on your laptop or it might cost you more than you win, ain"t that right Eck ;)
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Thanks eck for posting! I shall look over my hand history over the next few days and see if I can find any which may show up some probelms.
Like last night playing 6 handed tourney, deep in tourney I was in say top 10 guy on imediate right button raises and raises from cut off all the time showing wide range of hands. So Im in big blind he raised again so, I re raises him. He flat calls. I have junk. A raggy flop I check he bets and I reraise again as he continuation bet all the time. Then he shoves all in so, I am beating nothing. So fold, that hand cost me a lot so few hand later fairly short stack. He raises button again so a shove with ace 10 for 6000 more. He call with 4 6 and hit 6. So me out pretty standard shov I think but big stack luck always hits.
so what you think? obv its only one hand but is fairly standard for me I think.
POST BOTH HANDS - with your reads and stack sizes/blind level"stage of mtt/how many runners left/pay structure etc etc as much info as you can pot in,any prior hands shown by opponents etc etc
put in strategy and see what everyone thinks....
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So you didn"t like our replies previously so just ignore that and start again :D ??
Dan is correct 1st is thing don"t panic....was playing on wed night and down to 2 tables it plainly obvious quite a few hadn"t been that far before. There were about 4 or 5 guys who would open raise 6x and when everyone obv folds they show (was never lower than AK QQ + :D)
This makes it so exploitable it is brilliant. so guy opens 6x , shows QQ next hand he opens 2x.......immed gets repopped and passes. Guy makes it 6x again (not joking this was becoming standard yet i was still getting away with 2.5/3x blind steals with filth) all fold, next hand i nick his bb with 29 i think.
It is all relative to stack sizes to how active you need to be etc and again there is no set formula just keep thinking what you are doing. It does get fairly straightforward when you get to the end and some of the time it does involve having the studs to shove them in to pick up dead money if you can identify people that won"t play back and sometimes it is laying a hand down that you think you should really be playing when you get shorthanded etc.
Said it in the other thread you started, post hands that you think have been contentious and may have caused you to not go as far as you thought you would. If you are getting to the last 30 of fields of over 300 on a regular basis though i wouldn"t worry too much tbh it will come.
Edit: sorry typed all this out and you have replied now but cba to remove post. Give examples of opening game up as it isn"t a bad thing as long as you know what you are trying to achieve.
excellent post!!
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Cool nobel Ill try do that, tomorrow night before apat tourney. Im work the now skiving lol. an the usaul stuff going through my head POKER!!!!!!
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Dan is correct 1st is thing don"t panic....
2nd thing is...
Don"t take the bad beats out on your laptop or it might cost you more than you win, ain"t that right Eck ;)
LOL smart arse!! It was a needed release and the lappy had run out of luck obv. Currently £5k up for 2009....see all makes sense in the long run :D :D
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Nice. Im $500 up so not quite the same.
So how much for tuition eck?
What you normaly play in? tourney/cash???
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Nice. Im $500 up so not quite the same.
So how much for tuition eck?
What you normaly play in? tourney/cash???
Purely tourneys Mate, not been very good with the resolution to start playing cash during the week. So a couple of bleary eyed mornings this week.
Doesn"t sound like you need my help much mate if you are up $500.
Just stick the HH up when you get a chance
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Have merged the two threads together. Hope it"s not too confusing. ???
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Have merged the two threads together. Hope it"s not too confusing. ???
A* modding :)
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Im not great at the technology stuff but this is exactly how hand played out!
These are the hand from the last two tourney I played and I got deep. First one was a 6 seater tourney my fave. I have around 22000 sitting say top 20 out of 50 left from 500. My opponent had around 27000 blind where 300/600.
Im in small blind with qs td, the button raises too 2100, pretty standard has shown down some week hand and is a pretty active player raising from cut off an button lots. So I reraise to 5100. Maybe a little small. He flat called.
Flop: 8h 4s 9h. I lead out with a bet of 5700 and he shoves in for over 19000 chips, I have a gut shot and two over, I take full timer and fold.
What you think?
My final hand of the touney im in big blind with 6300 chips left same player in small blind. They raise to 1200, and i shove it all in with ah td. and opponent showes 7h 6h
Board comes qc 9c 6c :3c: :2d:
Im out pretty standard the main hand was the first one.
Tourney 2
2000 runners sitting in top 10 again down to 59 players. I have over 50000 chips playing solid, Its folded round to me on button i have 9c ac. The small blind is sitting out so only one player to beat. In big blind pretty tight player. Blind are 2,500/5000 plus ante so plent to pick up, I raise to 20000 big blind pushed, for 35000, so im commited and call they show ah :as:.
Board come 9h 4h th qs 5h. So lose that pretty standard I guess.
Next hand on cutoff i have qc 5c. I thnk if i can pick up blind and ante im back in it so I shove, and same player calls with :as: qc. Good night all and out in 57th place.
maybe there was a bit of tilt in that hand but some logic too.
What do you guys think about how I played they hand? what would use do or not do?
kenny
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I have around 22000 sitting say top 20 out of 50 left from 500. My opponent had around 27000 blind where 300/600.
ok this one , you have 36bb oop in the sb with QTo i"m guessing this is a low to medium buy in so 3bets are not as effective as the players here are not sophisticated enough for it to work consistently , you need to identify loose/tight passive weak players to your right for it to work better [try to remember who folds a lot to flop/turn bets they are your targets for 3bets and floating]
Do not be a rush to gain chips at 30 to 40bb,be patient and tend to let the good cards come to you.
Do not feel you have to defend a blind just because someone is raising you from the button, you have the button and position in the next hand attempt to steal then.
If you feel that a aggressive opponent is re-raising cont. bets a lot on low boards and using position,then if he calls and you are out of position and you do not hit but have a decent draw try the check raise line and put them to the decision,if you brick out totally do not be afraid to check fold if you have plenty of chips back,there is always other spots to accumulate.
When the blinds are high relative to the stacks and the antes have kicked in be aware of opponents stacks to your left and who are near the push all in stage,there is no need to raise 4x, 2.3bb to 3bb is just as effective for stealing and if your still in the 20bb+ area you can afford to fold to re-raises..iF ANY ACES OR KINGS FLOP and you are the raiser and have plenty of chips , cont. bet everytime use your judgment on the turn as to whether a turn cont.bet is required.
In the end stages medium to high pairs and high cards are more valuable,tend to play these rather than the small pairs and 78s 89s etc that are better early when you are deeper stacked.
If you are in the hi-jack position or later and it has folded round to you, do not limp almost always raise or fold never LIMP, limp only very rarely when there are agressive opponents to your left and you have a monster to trap them with.In the early positions NEVER LIMP if 1st in the pot,IF YOU CANNOT RAISE IT THEN FOLD IT.
If your card dead and cant find spots to gain chips remember patience pays..Also if the table tightens up start raising more from utg utg+1 utg+2 1st in once every 2 to 3 orbits just to help replenish your chips , this can still be a great steal position more so than the button..
So overall i"d suggest just slowing down a little and be patient,there is no need to go out on a fancy dan move,when you are 8 to 12bb that is the time to start shoving..Do not be afraid to fold in the blinds when you are ok chip stack wise.
Start paying attention to the 3 players to your right and there bet patterns and hands shown [play position]and the 2 to your left.[when they are in the blinds,do they defend or donk bet the flop]
There is loads more stuff and a lot is situational and read based, i"m sure the rest will chip in with ideas.Be aware of stack sizes [your own and opponents] and be patient,raise never limp if 1st in,be aggressive,do not feel it is wrong to fold,get a history replayer and play back and review all your mtts..work on that ;D
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thanks for the post noble. some great advice.
Kenny
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I think I"d have played all of these hands the same way as you (not that I"m saying I"m correct in thinking that LOL)
The only exception is tourney 2 hand 1. Effective stacks are only 7 BBs so I"d have open shoved here (not that it made any difference in the end)
noble1"s response (as always) is much more helpful though
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Feel like I should comment as i encouraged you to put theses up however I don"t play 6 handed games very often so not the best probably to advise but here is my view anyway.
Tourney one
H1
- You are very deep this late in a tourney so no real need to get involved oop with a marginal hand with the one guy (i assume) at the table who can bust you.
- If you do feel that a stand has to be made then raise more u created a slightly bigger pot and all he had to call was 3k. Make it nearer 7.5k and if he flats I jam that flop as it probably missed him completely and he wont be calling if he has A high etc as you have played it super strong.
- If he does call hit the jack and stick it in his eye :D
However i still pass I prefer to do this if i have position tbh.
H2
Standard as can be seen, you were aware his range is massive you just need to get there more often.
Tourney 2
H1
With 10 bb you aren"t entering a pot to fold so pretty standard. I wouldn"t jam though, raise less (3bb max) as you may encourage action from weaker aces KJ KQ type hands who may fold to a jam.
H2
One "skill" in crapshoots is to be aware of how light you are of likely to be called. You had 3bb so pretty unlikely to get past much tbh and Q5 doesn"t do much v 3 opponents to get past. But don"t hate it either as i"m probably jamming everything that looks half decent with that stack.
Summary for Tourney 2 - run better you didn"t do too much wrong. You can"t win them all but you seem to be getting to the end game regularly so the rest will follow if you just keep looking at the situations in isolation.
Don"t take a standard line every single time is probably what i mean. Try to be aware of what people are playing and adjust your range for those guys accordingly. e.g. ah th may be an easy pass v one guy but an easy jam v another etc.
Hope this helps
Oh and btw the 7h 7s was a pass last night imo. You still had half the table to play after you what was your plan if someone jammed over the top? Mid pairs play pretty poor at that stage of the comp you were calling hoping to be racing probably as v seldom is it 66 or lower in my experience. Lot better spots to risk more than half your stack IIRC.
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Start paying attention to the 3 players to your right and there bet patterns and hands shown [play position]and the 2 to your left.[when they are in the blinds,do they defend or donk bet the flop]
Just a bit more for you to think about and a bit more detail as to the kind of things you should be looking for,it is difficult at first to take it all in.The best way to start is to observe say 2 or 3 players only [the most active ones] and as it becomes 2nd nature with practice and experience you will have your beady eyes on the whole table and be able to pin point players where you can gain chips with relative safety or be able to trap/exploit position/value bet etc etc
Try to always be thinking what your opponent has [cards] based on his actions and general character [aggressive or passive , loose or tight]. At a minimum, you should be asking yourself:
Are your opponents disciplined with their starting hand requirements? If they are not varying their starting hand requirements based on their position (for example, they are playing an equal number of hands under the gun as they are on the button), then you know something about the quality of their play.[thoughts at low buy ins for utg raiser with K7s would be donkey lol ;D]
What cards do your opponents generally call or raise with and in what position. Do they tend to smooth-call when strong? Do they only bet when weak? Or are the opposite tendencies true?
Do they vary their bets based on the strength of their hands? What does a big bet mean? What does a medium bet mean? A small bet?
If an opponent was the last aggressor pre-flop, how often will he bet on the flop? (Usually, if you have unpaired cards in the hole, you will miss pairing your hand two-thirds of the time on the flop.)
Do your opponents slow-play big hands? Under what circumstances? Do they know when to stop slow-playing, such as when a dangerous cards that may support lots of different draws come down on the flop
How often do they bluff? Under what circumstances?[Do they always represent a paired flop,do they represent flush boards a lot,do they always bet if checked to etc etc]
Do they bet or check/call their draws? etc likewise top pair with a weak kicker.
Oh and btw the was a pass last night imo. You still had half the table to play after you what was your plan if someone jammed over the top? Mid pairs play pretty poor at that stage of the comp you were calling hoping to be racing probably as v seldom is it 66 or lower in my experience. Lot better spots to risk more than half your stack IIRC.
take note !!!! especially noting your stack size and that of players behind and your plan if called or re-raised...
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Thanks guys, I will defo try be more aware of what happening around me.
Yeah eck I hated my call last night, i had been playing a tight solid game last night with some nice check raise. Then I went and made that call. Think I got pretty frustrated as I got pretty card dead for say 20 min of so but, I was picking up some small to med pairs and had to pass them.
The guy who pushed seemed pretty active with a string of raises and pushing all in. I think I just wanted to get chip and guess was hoping for a coin toss. Was bad especially as there was players to act after me.
I think I have a habbit of trying to keep my chip count rising slowley but surley and due to being a bit card dead got impatient so somthing I need to work on.
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Also think I would never have made that call in a live game but did online, I have notice that I made this type of call online and I need to try get that out my game, think i get in a rush to build a stack sometimes. need to be really strict and patient.
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Also think I would never have made that call in a live game but did online, I have notice that I made this type of call online and I need to try get that out my game, think i get in a rush to build a stack sometimes. need to be really strict and patient.
yeah its a marginal one still though. If you move position and he is in CO or button and im in blinds its far easier call imo. It is just never a call in your position either jam (if you think he is doing it v light) or fold again imo.
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cool thanks. Do you play on virgin poker much? thinkin of giving it a try
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hey noble and eck thanks again for the advice!
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hey just a wee question, in a blind vs blind battle, you have king high, would you call the big bling, raise or fold??
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hey just a wee question, in a blind vs blind battle, you have king high, would you call the big bling, raise or fold??
All 3
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I though that might be the answer! lol
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I though that might be the answer! lol
LOL well c"mon if you aren"t going to put any effort in??? ;D
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Im trying master Yoda! ;D. Playing the now doing ok, just before money out of 900 starters, sitting midd stack.
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http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=2326.msg38786#msg38786
read this guy - extra info ;D
also in the lower buy ins play straight forward poker [abc i hate that term] just good ole solid stuff and follow the flow of the game/players and develop the ability to fold post flop.
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Im trying master Yoda! ;D. Playing the now doing ok, just before money out of 900 starters, sitting midd stack.
on where? i"ll come and watch only left in 2 and prob wont be for long.
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im out now was on titan, called a raise pre flop with ts td. flop came queen high guy made small bet, I push allin guy made bad call with ace king and guess what came on the turn.
Played ok tried to think a bit more, looking at what types of hand people where raising and calling etc.
Where you playing eck?
Thank for the link nobel will take a while to digest.
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Bust everything v early and wasn"t going to start again but started the 11 o"clock on crypto $2.5 gtd and a $7K on blonde turbo rebuy thingy 30/61 & 67/106 on them
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cool good luck!! think that me for the night. Off tomorrow play a tourney tomorrow and fillout masters application.
note to self stay away from cash games lol!