Amateur Poker Association & Tour

Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: oneill1970 on January 11, 2009, 08:07:51 AM

Title: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: oneill1970 on January 11, 2009, 08:07:51 AM
I"m relatively new to tourneys, just playing one a week to dip my toe in he water, so would appreciate any advice as to what I did wrong here, or might have done later.  Normally I"m a 6max LHE player.

Online tourney, 16 players left of 66, 10 paid.  Blinds are 100/200.  I have about 1,800 in chips and am UTG.

I am dealt  :as: jh - I come in for 500.  (Should I have pushed all-in at this stage? - I wanted to standardise all my raises to disguise my steals.)
Player to my left calls, quite loose, a big pile of chips, blinds fold. 1,300 in the pot, as I recall.  I"m planning to go all-in on the flop if I hit it, but balance that against it being quite close to the bubble if I don"t.

Flop comes down:    kh qd :3c: - I have overcard and straight draw, and am thinking he may have hit with a king or queen.

I"m first to act - what should I have done?
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: George2Loose on January 11, 2009, 10:06:34 AM
Shove pre flop please.

As played shove the flop
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: Swinebag on January 11, 2009, 13:37:57 PM

Shove pre flop please.

As played shove the flop


+1
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: oneill1970 on January 11, 2009, 13:46:52 PM
Thanks - that"s kind of what I expected to hear!

As it turned out, I shoved the flop.

He had   :3d: :2d: and backdoored the flush.  No Ace or Jack for me.

Hey ho!
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: UKChamp on January 11, 2009, 14:40:11 PM
i dont like the shove UTG

whilst stake dictates, i am tempted to rep a bigger hand by limp raising pre or limp pushing (on any flop), in this position u could get small/med pairs to fold when they are in fact ahead.

im also not too against folding. in my opinion AJ is very marginal pushing range in that position, yes the blinds will knock ur stack but ull soon have position and i dont see many smaller aces (or smaller Js) calling here (and that is the main aim), more often than not ur pushing for a coin flip or way behind a bigger ace
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: George2Loose on January 12, 2009, 10:42:10 AM
limp/shove? You"re never getting anyone to fold???
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: kinboshi on January 12, 2009, 13:09:57 PM
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: tonyj444 on January 12, 2009, 13:17:33 PM
Yeah, I agree with Kinboshi, anything under 10bb and I"m only ever shove/folding pre.  Dependant upon how tight the table is, position and ante"s I would maybe increase this up to 15bb. 

Standardising your raises as you mention is a good idea, but when you get this short the key is to make your standard raise a shove.

In this specific spot I would probably lean towards a fold (assuming 8 ppl at the table).  As mentioned you really don"t get called by anything you"re ahead of, so I much prefer a shove with any 2 cards from the button rather than a good/mediocre hand utg.  If the table is 6-handed or shorter though, I think this becomes a definite shove.
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: deanp27 on January 12, 2009, 13:31:43 PM
shove preflop

/thread
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on January 12, 2009, 13:40:04 PM
Whilst you don"t have position, there might be an argument for folding and waiting for a better spot, but you have less than 10bbs so for me its an automatic shove.
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: AMRN on January 12, 2009, 13:49:04 PM
with only 1800 chips in your stack, you knew that when you committed 500 with the opening raise, you were never going to be able to fold later in the hand as you were pot committed..... SO, why not take the lead, give the other players something to think about, and get your chips in first.  with a standard raise, as soon as someone calls, and the flop is dealt, you are out of position and having to make a decision for your tourney. Also, by such a small opening raise, you"re giving everyone odds to call with any two cards.

Make it simple - pre flop shove every time in this spot.
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: oneill1970 on January 12, 2009, 14:03:53 PM
Thanks for all the great advice - like I say, still a beginner at tourneys, but looking to learn!
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: TopPair2Pair on January 12, 2009, 17:18:55 PM
This flop against this player i check call in an attempt to get free cards/control pot, leavin us room to get away if he checks behind which is prolly a Kx/Qx... Ax is more then likely popping back pre.

to me; flop all in is saying "i missed" look me up

He called verrry light so i doubt there"s anything you can do on flop differently to get away from him other then opening with a fold!!!!!
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: noble1 on January 12, 2009, 17:39:33 PM

This flop against this player i check call in an attempt to get free cards/control pot, leavin us room to get away if he checks behind which is prolly a Kx/Qx... Ax is more then likely popping back pre.

to me; flop all in is saying "i missed" look me up

He called verrry light so i doubt there"s anything you can do on flop differently to get away from him other then opening with a fold!!!!!


?? 1300 behind 1300 pot 1 caller 6bb left ........ as played shove flop and put them to the decision if they call you have outs...
As you are low 9bb pre-flop either shove or fold is the ideal play, i"ve been known to fold AJ utg purely because i know with 8 opponents behind to get past is a long shot as the odds someone has AK AQ is pretty high it is a 50/50 for me , sometimes i do sometimes i don"t, as my min threshold is 7to8bb playing online and even with the approaching blinds and no antes even going down to 5bb will be ok for me but no less...
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: TopPair2Pair on January 12, 2009, 17:44:43 PM
i"m weak tight.. what can i say? other then "nit at work"
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: hi_am_chris on January 13, 2009, 02:45:39 AM
as said shove or fold pre flop, if there are antes that would make me more inclined to shove as theres more to win and im still losing chips every hand after, if there arent antes then you can possibly find a reason to fold and look to get your money in in the next orbit
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: WarBwastardo on January 13, 2009, 03:09:00 AM
If you know the guy to your left is loose and he"s got a huge stack you have to expect him to call your 500 raise, in which case it leaves you out of position with over a quarter of your stack invested facing a flop with Ace-High. 

Was it a ten handed table?  What was average chips at the time? How much did 10th place get?  And  stuff.

If you"re happy with 10th place money there"s an argument for folding here...if you"re trying to win it you need chips so shove it in pre-flop and cross your fangers, that"s what I always say.
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: smiler2705 on January 13, 2009, 05:17:57 AM
either push or fold, you do not have enough chips to pass on the flop. With AJ you need a bit of luck
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: noble1 on January 13, 2009, 10:03:04 AM
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on January 13, 2009, 11:36:46 AM
Excellent advice as usual
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: TopPair2Pair on January 13, 2009, 12:15:15 PM
Quote
i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.

I am guessing we are doing this hoping for Ax V AceBroadway in a 2 shovee pot. ie...AK V AK where we have a gd edge.
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: tonyj444 on January 13, 2009, 12:29:41 PM

Another spot i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.[I wont call KQ AQ 55 88 etc type hands here as they are most likely dominated]


Is this actually a +EV play?  I agree that you do need to take risks as a shorty in order to chip-up but I"m not convinced that this is a good spot for it.  Yes, hands like suited connectors play well in multi-way pots but generally when you can get in for cheap.  Lets assume 3 all-ins in front of you, this should lay you pot-odds of something in the region of 3:1 (It will be slightly better than this due to what was already in the pot from blinds/antes).  Even if we give all 3 villains a loose shoving range of 22+ AJ+ I suspect you won"t be getting the requisite 25% equity (I"m at work so don"t have pokerstove but will check this when I get home).  In reality the ranges are generally going to be tighter than this (especially from 2nd and 3rd all-ins) so I don"t understand how you gain from this play?  You have no fold equity (obviously), are risking your tournament life and are putting money into the pot in a -EV situation.

I agree with everything else youn said 110%

No doubt I"ll get home now and pokerstove will make me look a fool :-p
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: noble1 on January 13, 2009, 15:12:00 PM


Another spot i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.[I wont call KQ AQ 55 88 etc type hands here as they are most likely dominated]


Is this actually a +EV play?  I agree that you do need to take risks as a shorty in order to chip-up but I"m not convinced that this is a good spot for it.  Yes, hands like suited connectors play well in multi-way pots but generally when you can get in for cheap.  Lets assume 3 all-ins in front of you, this should lay you pot-odds of something in the region of 3:1 (It will be slightly better than this due to what was already in the pot from blinds/antes).  Even if we give all 3 villains a loose shoving range of 22+ AJ+ I suspect you won"t be getting the requisite 25% equity (I"m at work so don"t have pokerstove but will check this when I get home).  In reality the ranges are generally going to be tighter than this (especially from 2nd and 3rd all-ins) so I don"t understand how you gain from this play?  You have no fold equity (obviously), are risking your tournament life and are putting money into the pot in a -EV situation.

I agree with everything else youn said 110%

No doubt I"ll get home now and pokerstove will make me look a fool :-p


I did say gamble  ;D  to explain myself better the situation has to right i.e the opponents ranges should be wide and it is beneficial for me to triple or quadruple up.
On or near ish the bubble where if i win will help me push deeper in the tourny or when it is actually in the money and if i win helps me get even deeper...
It is not something i use with regularity but sometimes these spots crop up and i have benefited from it  ;D

Th9h - 35.579%
AcKd - 39.247%
AsQs - 25.174%     as you can see certain situations are worth it

and if you get it totally wrong such as -

Th9h - 19.291%
AcKd - 4.970%
QhQs - 17.693%
AdAh - 58.046%   but 4to1 to quadruple up say early in the money when i am short stack is ok for me,some may disagree...but this is my choice.

Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: TopPair2Pair on January 13, 2009, 15:24:35 PM
Pairs have a real bearing here. I think you need some excellent end game/bubble stats on a player+good notes+reading skills to really utilise this... and if your gonna bang these out then you gta be certain that X amount of the time you do it with chips returning to you, you must go on to win the whole thing imo


10,265,098   H1/H0;+99-22            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    27.53%   26.58%   0.95%   2728324       97307.92   { 99-22, AKs, AKo }
H1:    28.63%   27.59%   1.04%   2832300      106388.08   { 99-22, ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    24.40%   23.77%   0.62%   2440215       64132.25   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    19.45%   18.68%   0.77%   1917046       79385.75   { random }

10,154,386   H1/H0;QQ+            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    38.83%   36.44%   2.39%   3699920      243079.92   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
H1:    25.80%   23.35%   2.46%   2370625      249384.25   { QQ+, ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    20.38%   20.00%   0.38%   2030458       38660.08   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    14.99%   14.45%   0.55%   1466863       55395.75   { random }

10,212,359   H1/H0;JJ+            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    37.80%   36.21%   1.60%   3697406      163032.67   { TT+, AKs, AKo }
H1:    29.32%   27.67%   1.65%   2825520      168869.00   { TT+, ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    18.25%   17.89%   0.36%   1827050       36799.33   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    14.63%   14.11%   0.52%   1440746       52936.00   { random }

10,191,266   H1/H0;!Pairs            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    32.05%   26.36%   5.68%   2686845      579060.00   { AKs, AKo }
H1:    19.79%   14.09%   5.70%   1435807      581209.83   { ATs+, AJo+ }
H2:    27.95%   27.42%   0.52%   2794672       53310.83   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    20.22%   19.48%   0.74%   1985453       74909.33   { random }

10,188,735   H2; -ATs, Ajo            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    29.23%   20.55%   8.68%   2093616      884190.67   { AKs, AKo }
H1:    20.58%   11.92%   8.66%   1214456      882117.67   { AQs+, AQo+ }
H2:    29.54%   29.04%   0.50%   2958621       51316.00   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }
H3:    20.66%   19.92%   0.73%   2029719       74865.67   { random }

10,262,731   2ops            
Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied
H0:    37.90%   25.85%   12.05%   2652742     1236780.83   { AKs, AKo }
H1:    25.35%   13.30%   12.05%   1364838     1236780.83   { AQs+, AQo+ }
H2:    36.75%   36.62%   0.13%   3758470       13429.33   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }

Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: noble1 on January 13, 2009, 15:37:30 PM
like i said 2to1  to  4to1 is ok for me in certain situations to chip up 3x or 4x my stack.
This if it comes up is far more significant than a basic double up when the blinds/antes are high and within 2 orbits you are desperate again...

maths is a solid base to form certain plays around say in cash games where the long term view is taken or in SNG"s when there are 5 or 4 left but basic ICM for mtt"s is a totally different beast and a lot of your cash/sng ideas should go out the window imo...
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: oneill1970 on January 13, 2009, 21:33:14 PM
This is all so much help - when I first posted I expected maybe one or two replies, but this is awesome for my first hand post (I think!).  I"ll be playing another low buyin online tourney on Saturday, I hope, and, with all these ideas swimming around my head, it"ll be a great experience, win or lose.  I already feel a better player.  Hopefully I am!

On a similar note, I"m currently reading Poker Tournament Formula, mainly because it deals with fast online structures, but I also have the following in my library - would one of these be better to get into, especially for a beginner, especially online?  Bear in mind that I"m just trying to ramp up my tourney knowhow while I build my skills and bankroll at cash primarily.

Sklansky - Tournament Poker (have read this once, a while back)
Harrington on Hold "Em (have all 3 - relevant for online?)
Full Tilt Strategy Guide (some say it"s very good, but I want to walk before I can run)
McEvoy - Tournament Poker
McEvoy - How To Win No-Limit Hold Em Tournaments
Nelson - Kill Everyone
Anything else...?  Phil Gordon?  Jon Vorhaus?

Once again, thanks so much - the response has been amazing (and everybody"s been kind enough not to call me an idiot!  Yet...)
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: noble1 on January 13, 2009, 22:22:35 PM
Quote
Sklansky - Tournament Poker (have read this once, a while back)
Harrington on Hold "Em (have all 3 - relevant for online?)
Full Tilt Strategy Guide (some say it"s very good, but I want to walk before I can run)
McEvoy - Tournament Poker
McEvoy - How To Win No-Limit Hold Em Tournaments
Nelson - Kill Everyone
Anything else...?  Phil Gordon?  Jon Vorhaus?


Lee Nelsons kill everyone is the most relevant to the buy in you are playing imo.

starting out in these low buy in mtts is tough as you still need fairly good reading skills to do well consistently.Just keep it tight ish.play straight forward poker and do not bluff to much and every hand you are not in try to put people on hands all the time,as you get better your reads will do so as you practice them all the time...
[no watching porn,no watching footie on tv when you are not involved in a hand etc etc practice reading others  ;D]
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: tonyj444 on January 14, 2009, 14:10:12 PM
I haven"t read most of those but would definitely reccommend Harrington.  Superb book.
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: Honeybadg on January 14, 2009, 15:14:46 PM
Instant all in for me ... do you really want to be in the hand ... fold is fine but feels like you are trying to limp to the money.

All in might get called by all kinds of hands that get you into a coin flip situation ... plus weaker aces (likely suited - who cares?) which you are miles ahead of.

If you are up against JJ,QQ,KK,AA you are in a lot of trouble but you are anyway after most flops ... you will play if you hit the J ... and lose to all of them.

If you fold after the flop you are in the big blind next hand ... and likely will play with a worse hand with no fold equity for all your chips.

AQ and AK are mightmare bad outcomes ... but assuming you are against 7 other players the time ... I think you have to push ...

Double the chips then just fold it and wait.

Harrington is where to start I expect ...

Louis
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: Amethyst on January 29, 2009, 22:21:43 PM

I"m relatively new to tourneys, just playing one a week to dip my toe in he water, so would appreciate any advice as to what I did wrong here, or might have done later.  Normally I"m a 6max LHE player.

Online tourney, 16 players left of 66, 10 paid.  Blinds are 100/200.  I have about 1,800 in chips and am UTG.

I am dealt  :as: jh - I come in for 500.  (Should I have pushed all-in at this stage? -



was this a LHE torny (you don"t actually say)?  If so, can u push all-in from utg ? Surely you raised the max (200 + blinds = 500, so now 800 in the pot) so no real fold equity to anyone with a decent stack + half decent cards. Beats me why villain didn"t rr to 1600 to try to isolate you.

Am i wrong, i don"t play limit  ???
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: tonyj444 on January 30, 2009, 12:02:15 PM
If this were limit he would only have been able to raise to 400.....
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: oneill1970 on January 31, 2009, 01:51:45 AM
No - I play NL tourneys, but limit cash games.  I busted out early in my next tourney, making a stupid call, but I have taken many of the lessons here, applied them elsewhere, and cashed in 7 of my last 12 STTs.  It"s a start!

I have played limit tourneys in the past, and done OK, but they seem to be hard to find...
Title: Re: Tourney hand - comments appreciated!
Post by: texfitz on February 02, 2009, 10:33:25 AM
Quote
was this a LHE torny (you don"t actually say)?  If so, can u push all-in from utg ? Surely you raised the max (200 + blinds = 500, so now 800 in the pot) so no real fold equity to anyone with a decent stack + half decent cards. Beats me why villain didn"t rr to 1600 to try to isolate you.

Am i wrong, i don"t play limit  


that"s Pot Limit i think