Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Live Poker => Topic started by: Honeybadg on February 09, 2009, 16:41:00 PM
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... it seems like a crazy time to be finishing on a Sunday night ...
Structure to be tweaked ... if there are 200 runners needs more of a twist I think.
I would be keen to kick antes in quicker ... only way to induce early action with "rocks" getting eaten away.
Various other threads have eluded to the fact this was a one off ... but it looked like a late late finish from very early on.
It must have affected some players needing to get home etc ...
I look forward to thoughts.
Louis
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never made it past the dinner break - so no comment!!! ;D ;D
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... I should have also said that the structure on paper looks excellent ... but with so many "rocks" ... I would expect the same to happen again ... if you clip a level out ... you might finish an hour earlier ... still very late if you need to be at work the next day in some other city!
L
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After chatting to various players over the weekend, ideas to get to the final table quicker include dropping the 500/1000 level, having a split dinner break, making the antes increase more quickly and breathalysing players.
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The structure was spot on and no need to be tweaked IMO. Maybe rulings need to tweaked like "calling clock is not in the APAT spirit" as we had no play in the last level and we wasn"t allowed to call clock when players were tank folding for 5 mins a round.
Also there was a loooooong delay before the final table, for probably over 2 hours, not APAT's fault but people were waiting for food etc. If we had just had a quick break and started again we"d have been done well before midnight.
You cannot judge a structure on one tourney it needs to be run a few times before you get a fuller picture.
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I don"t think many players who reach the final stages have a problem with the late finish. Up until this event we had all been saying more chips, longer levels, more levels etc.
The real issue is those guys who put in all the effort to make it all happen. These people also have jobs to go to on Mondays (except Leigh "I"m a Pro" Wiltshire of course).
It is for this reason, and also because APAT's intention was always to accomodate those mear mortals like me that have jobs, that any changes needed should be welcomed.
I for one agree with Andrew"s collected ideas. Split dinner works well but it does rely on the casino being organised to cope with it. Someone said they now do this at the GUKPT events so it could work.
The 2 hour break before the FT didn"t help either (not the fault of APAT)
Is an earlier start on the Sunday possible?
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From the APAT rules, for info.....
44. Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision. If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead. The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
1. Tournament Director.
2. Table Dealer.
3. Another player participating in that specific hand.
For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.
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... if people were taking 5 mins to make a fold then that is ridiculous ...
As I said I think the structure is excellent on paper ...
So ... say I am involved in a hand when roughly can I call for the clock ... what"s reasonable?
I think a minute is reasonable to make a decision - but others will disagree.
The point about most players not minding the late finish doesn"t help those that do mind it ... I was neutral for this tournament - it would have been easy for me to stay.
In the briefing the estimated was 10pm. (Late enough)
One idea to induce play would be to keep a tally of knock outs and have an "assasin" award for each tournament. (Scrub if this is an admin nightmare).
Well played the APAT team.
Louis
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Had clock called on me on Saturday (no probs). Only thing was that someone not in the hand was asking for the clock, I politely informed them it wasn"t there place to ask. (again no probs).
Don"t agree that clocks are not in the Apat spirit they are there to make sure the game flows. Holding the game up is not in the Apat spirit.
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Personally, I thought the structure was absolutely perfect (but then I would, wouldn"t I?). However the finish was a little too late for a Sunday night, given that most people play the game with every intention of going to work on Monday morning.
We started at 14:30 on Sunday, but I was at the casino at 13:00, and the place was already starting to buzz..... don"t see why we couldn"t have started at 14:00. Then, if the casino had been a little more organised around the dinner break, and the break had lasted for one hour max, that would have cut a total of 1.5 hours from the day, and the game would have ended around midnight...... in my opinion, that would have been spot on.
One other thing to take a look at is the sizing of the antes. In some levels the ratio of ante to small blind was 10:1.... I think the highest I saw it was 6:1. If the antes were just slightly larger and running between 4:1 and 6:1, the pots would have been more attractive for stealing, and would have induced more play (and stopped all that silly passive folding when down to the lasst three :) )
Overall though, the structure was as good as I"ve ever played - I loved it.
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... yes pump the antes ... give an expectation to people what is a reasonable time to act within ... great format ...
L
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Is an earlier start on the Sunday possible?
I too love the structure as it is but if the Casino can accommodate it Stuart"s idea of an earlier start on the Sunday would be great. For those people that have stayed overnight in a hotel the check out time is normally 11am (even if they give you a late check out it will normally only be to 12 or 1) so its a long time from checking out of the hotel to restarting the tournament.
My vote an earlier start.
Personnaly I think day 1 could have gone quicker.
- For political correctness, lets just say there was some slow play for various reasons and
- late on day 1 it seemed a small stack just would not die gracefully (myself included), we just kepted doubling back up. I think the record was Brendon (sorry if I got your name wrong) who came back from 100 chips when the blinds were 800/1600 and eventually went out about 50th place
Please please don"t change the structure toooo much :)
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The structure was spot on and no need to be tweaked IMO. Maybe rulings need to tweaked like "calling clock is not in the APAT spirit" as we had no play in the last level and we wasn"t allowed to call clock when players were tank folding for 5 mins a round.
Also there was a loooooong delay before the final table, for probably over 2 hours, not APAT's fault but people were waiting for food etc. If we had just had a quick break and started again we"d have been done well before midnight.
You cannot judge a structure on one tourney it needs to be run a few times before you get a fuller picture.
I pretty much agree with this.
It is possible that a slight tweak to the size of the antes could improve matters, and if we could start on Sunday at 1pm it certainly shouldn"t cause any harm.
Apart from that though I think a "wait and see" approach would be more appropriate for the time being.
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[X] Sunday night 2am finish is too late for the majority with Monday morning work looming.
Q. Can we keep the same excellent structure and finish at a reasonable time Sunday?
A. (my answer anyway) Play is stopped so early on the Saturday night (just after 1am)?
Many players have to come back the next day with maybe little play and no g"tee of cashing. Not too bad for those who stay over, but quite a few travel home for the Sat night.
I beleive it took 1:45hours to reach the money stages on the Sunday, If possible I beleive playing down to the money should be done on the Saturday night, this would have meant a 3am finish this Saturday.Another time saver as already suggested restart the tourney earlier on the Sunday.
Don"t alter the structure it was great ! and almost mirrors the GUKPT, lets just use the time better.
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Is an earlier start on the Sunday possible?
I too love the structure as it is but if the Casino can accommodate it Stuart"s idea of an earlier start on the Sunday would be great. For those people that have stayed overnight in a hotel the check out time is normally 11am (even if they give you a late check out it will normally only be to 12 or 1) so its a long time from checking out of the hotel to restarting the tournament.
My vote an earlier start.
Personnaly I think day 1 could have gone quicker.
- For political correctness, lets just say there was some slow play for various reasons and
- late on day 1 it seemed a small stack just would not die gracefully (myself included), we just kepted doubling back up. I think the record was Brendon (sorry if I got your name wrong) who came back from 100 chips when the blinds were 800/1600 and eventually went out about 50th place
Please please don"t change the structure toooo much :)
+1
I read this thread at work and loged on at home with a view to posting a very similar point, lots of time to kill between 11am check out at 2.30pm start. Also agree with Robbiebox that more play possible on Saturday.
Keep the structure, I love it and I doubt I"ll be playing in a GUKPT main event any day soon :(
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Hi,
sorry but did not know where to post this question.
According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.
Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.
Is it me?
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I think starting earlier on a Sunday might be an issue (not from APAT's side, but from the casino"s).
Playing later on the Saturday makes sense imo, and I can"t comment on the antes - in fact I"d rather let Rich Stevenson do that for me...
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Hi,
sorry but did not know where to post this question.
According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.
Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.
Is it me?
I blame Dan"s calendar TBH
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Hi,
sorry but did not know where to post this question.
According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.
Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.
Is it me?
I blame Dan"s calendar TBH
+1
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From the APAT rules, for info.....
44. Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision. If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead. The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
1. Tournament Director.
2. Table Dealer.
3. Another player participating in that specific hand.
For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.
and APAT were spot in enforcing that rule but in any other tourney you play in the UK clock can be called by anyone at the table and to be fair when antes come in everyone has an interest for time to move on. I don"t think calling clock can be abused but knowing that you cannot have the clock called on you can be.
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Agree with Brian about the calling of the clock.
Even in the early stages when i was still in people were taking a ridiculous time to make decisions preflop, no idea how they manage on the internet ??? I have no problem with people thinking about a tough decision but how many do you have in a game?
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From the APAT rules, for info.....
44. Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision. If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead. The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
1. Tournament Director.
2. Table Dealer.
3. Another player participating in that specific hand.
For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.
and APAT were spot in enforcing that rule but in any other tourney you play in the UK clock can be called by anyone at the table and to be fair when antes come in everyone has an interest for time to move on. I don"t think calling clock can be abused but knowing that you cannot have the clock called on you can be.
The table/dealer/TD would have to careful that equal time was allowed towards the end of a level as at the beginning. I"ve seen it abused by players not in the hand close to the level end.
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44. Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision. If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead. The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
1. Tournament Director.
2. Table Dealer.
3. Another player participating in that specific hand.
For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.
[/quote]
Early on in the tournament there was a hand on my table between a couple of players that took forever indeed one player contemplating for just under 5 minutes before raising all in and the other taking a full 5 to make his decision.
although out of the hand both myself and Foggy contemplated asking for the clock. We both held stum for my part simply because I had taken a few minutes to decide to fold to an all in bet on the turn knowing I had 12 outs almost certainly 15 and possibly 18 only 10 minutes earlier. The Gambler in me desperately wanted to gamble and run up to nearly 40k if i hit but crippled if missed halfway through level 2 but I chickened out.
Had either of us called the clock I see we would have been in breach of APAT rules which would have been unfortunate.
I think this rule needs to be looked at. For the record the 2 players involved were not trying to time waste but feedback does seem to suggest there was a hell of lot of timewasting later when the blinds got serious.
Surely if you are in the tournament the timewasting does affect you whether in the hand or not.
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The structure was spot on and no need to be tweaked IMO. Maybe rulings need to tweaked like "calling clock is not in the APAT spirit" as we had no play in the last level and we wasn"t allowed to call clock when players were tank folding for 5 mins a round.
Also there was a loooooong delay before the final table, for probably over 2 hours, not APAT's fault but people were waiting for food etc. If we had just had a quick break and started again we"d have been done well before midnight.
You cannot judge a structure on one tourney it needs to be run a few times before you get a fuller picture.
yes it was very bad late on when the button (65k) was tank folding j/9 after 10 mins to a under the gun all in off 28k
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The structure was spot on and no need to be tweaked IMO. Maybe rulings need to tweaked like "calling clock is not in the APAT spirit" as we had no play in the last level and we wasn"t allowed to call clock when players were tank folding for 5 mins a round.
Also there was a loooooong delay before the final table, for probably over 2 hours, not APAT's fault but people were waiting for food etc. If we had just had a quick break and started again we"d have been done well before midnight.
You cannot judge a structure on one tourney it needs to be run a few times before you get a fuller picture.
yes it was very bad late on when the button (65k) was tank folding j/9 after 10 mins to a under the gun all in off 28k
loooool
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Hi,
sorry but did not know where to post this question.
According to the live national schedule there are sats for world open 2nite,2moro and Wednesday.
Did question it with Leigh at time of schedule published cos world open not until August but told correct - but i can"t find them on Blue Sq.
Is it me?
It was correct, but they are going to be moved by a week due to timing issues.
Keep an eye on the forum for an update. ;D
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Hi all
Rest assured we spent a lot of the weekend considering the structure changes, observing etc
For starters it wasn"t possible to start earlier on day One. To be frank the venue itself had severe organisational problems and led to a tense couple of hours pre-event. This may not be the case at every venue, but its a big ask to start earlier in our experience.
At the end of Day One, we stop when players have been playing for 12 hours roughly. Thats a long day for APAT organisers as well as remaining players. This time round 5 mins longer per level plus 500-1000 plus too shallow antes all contributed to 47 coming back. So there is definitely scope to make a few alterations to those factors, rather than going on for longer on day one
Start of day two you typically run into casino staffing issues..dealers, front desk etc that prevents earlier starts
Switching to split dinner breaks is definitely under consideration though
The long break before the final yesterday was most undesirable, and will be triple checked next event to avoid if at all possible
So in summary a few tweakings maybe, but no great change to start/finish timings IMO
Onto time taken to make decisions. The relevant APAT rule has been mentioned, and I myself had to tell the likes of Brian and that table late on day one that you could not call a clock if you aren"t in a hand. It should be noted that the rule is framed like that because there is a tacit understanding that the DEALER will take the lead in calling for a clock if need be. I think though this is over-optimistic as dealers can be inexperienced or intimidated (and that Adam Wilkinson, Armitage, Martin table was lively and not for the faint hearted) and rarely call for a clock in my experience. I could not though go against an APAT rule mid comp, not matter how frustrated everyone was.
So we"ll look at that rule before Cardiff.
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think the the structure was perfect there was a combanation of things that made it late
1st was the late start of 20 mins not apat fault that the gramophone did not work but it did saved us from the grandads train stories
second was the slow play from the player late on on day 2 the players fault not the structure
and then the 3rd was the 2hr dinner break before the final table it was just one of them things that happend mix up between players apat and casino
cut these things out and the structure would have been fine and eveyone would have being going home by 12
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... good stuff... good to know that the feedback is listened too and taken account of.
Of of interest from the APAT's point of view what is the optimal time for the tournament to end ... I appreciate there will be some +/- in this ... but interested in the thought process.
Cheers
Louis
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... it seems like a crazy time to be finishing on a Sunday night ...
Structure to be tweaked ... if there are 200 runners needs more of a twist I think.
I would be keen to kick antes in quicker ... only way to induce early action with "rocks" getting eaten away.
Various other threads have eluded to the fact this was a one off ... but it looked like a late late finish from very early on.
It must have affected some players needing to get home etc ...
I look forward to thoughts.
Louis
I have not read ANY of the posts below so i am sorry if i may have repeated anything from anybody.
The main reason for the late finishing time was basically the amount of people down to the last 30-40 not being able to play a short stack. There were no risks taken which should have been taken and no one grabbed the game by the balls one bit. If someone decided to do that the game would have been over ALOT quicker.
I am not ****ting on anyones play but it really was like watching paint dry the amount of SUPER "tight" play near the end.
However i personally put this down to the standard of tournament poker at the moment.
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I have not read ANY of the posts below so i am sorry if i may have repeated anything from anybody.
The main reason for the late finishing time was basically the amount of people down to the last 30-40 not being able to play a short stack. There were no risks taken which should have been taken and no one grabbed the game by the balls one bit. If someone decided to do that the game would have been over ALOT quicker.
I am not ****ting on anyones play but it really was like watching paint dry the amount of SUPER "tight" play near the end.
However i personally put this down to the standard of tournament poker at the moment.
Interesting post. Out of interest, how far did you get?
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... it seems like a crazy time to be finishing on a Sunday night ...
Structure to be tweaked ... if there are 200 runners needs more of a twist I think.
I would be keen to kick antes in quicker ... only way to induce early action with "rocks" getting eaten away.
Various other threads have eluded to the fact this was a one off ... but it looked like a late late finish from very early on.
It must have affected some players needing to get home etc ...
I look forward to thoughts.
Louis
I have not read ANY of the posts below so i am sorry if i may have repeated anything from anybody.
The main reason for the late finishing time was basically the amount of people down to the last 30-40 not being able to play a short stack. There were no risks taken which should have been taken and no one grabbed the game by the balls one bit. If someone decided to do that the game would have been over ALOT quicker.
I am not ****ting on anyones play but it really was like watching paint dry the amount of SUPER "tight" play near the end.
However i personally put this down to the standard of tournament poker at the moment.
You are actually ****ting on people"s play aren"t you. That"s the whole point of your post. Fair enough, but it is an amateur game isn"t it..so it"s not unreasonable for people to either not necessarily know how to play a short stack or to decide to let their chips bleed away just so they could stay in the tournament for as long as possible and make the experience last. Perhaps they weren"t having the enjoyment of railers as their priority.
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... it seems like a crazy time to be finishing on a Sunday night ...
Structure to be tweaked ... if there are 200 runners needs more of a twist I think.
I would be keen to kick antes in quicker ... only way to induce early action with "rocks" getting eaten away.
Various other threads have eluded to the fact this was a one off ... but it looked like a late late finish from very early on.
It must have affected some players needing to get home etc ...
I look forward to thoughts.
Louis
I have not read ANY of the posts below so i am sorry if i may have repeated anything from anybody.
The main reason for the late finishing time was basically the amount of people down to the last 30-40 not being able to play a short stack. There were no risks taken which should have been taken and no one grabbed the game by the balls one bit. If someone decided to do that the game would have been over ALOT quicker.
I am not ****ting on anyones play but it really was like watching paint dry the amount of SUPER "tight" play near the end.
However i personally put this down to the standard of tournament poker at the moment.
Like your opinion counts for anything ::)
The way you have behaved on countless forums over the years I don"t think New Zealand is far enough for you.
Bye!
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One other thing to take a look at is the sizing of the antes. In some levels the ratio of ante to small blind was 10:1.... I think the highest I saw it was 6:1. If the antes were just slightly larger and running between 4:1 and 6:1, the pots would have been more attractive for stealing, and would have induced more play (and stopped all that silly passive folding when down to the lasst three :) )
+1 - i agree antes need to be pitched according to SB and BB levels - one minute they are attractive and induce play, the next not worth it. a consistent 4:1 or 5:1 seems about right
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structure was superb and only needs a little tweaking to give a sensible finish time. this should do it imo
- increase antes on levels 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 18. the others are spot on
- extra level at end of saturday, ideally 2
- do not break any tables until field is at 171. then go to 9 handed tables. this will make for a better game as well as getting in more orbits speeding up the tourney
combine these with not having a huge break pre final table and the structure should work really well
the split dinner break will also make a contribution though not a great one. having 2x45 minutes staggered as opposed to 1x60minutes only saves 15 minutes overall
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... liking this structure ...
L
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... it"s always "nearly time for the clock" ...
L
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44. Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision. If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead. The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
1. Tournament Director.
2. Table Dealer.
3. Another player participating in that specific hand.
For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.
Early on in the tournament there was a hand on my table between a couple of players that took forever indeed one player contemplating for just under 5 minutes before raising all in and the other taking a full 5 to make his decision.
although out of the hand both myself and Foggy contemplated asking for the clock. We both held stum for my part simply because I had taken a few minutes to decide to fold to an all in bet on the turn knowing I had 12 outs almost certainly 15 and possibly 18 only 10 minutes earlier. The Gambler in me desperately wanted to gamble and run up to nearly 40k if i hit but crippled if missed halfway through level 2 but I chickened out.
Had either of us called the clock I see we would have been in breach of APAT rules which would have been unfortunate.
I think this rule needs to be looked at. For the record the 2 players involved were not trying to time waste but feedback does seem to suggest there was a hell of lot of timewasting later when the blinds got serious.
Surely if you are in the tournament the timewasting does affect you whether in the hand or not.
[/quote]
Exactly..........but as Tighty says a lot of dealers feel intimidated to call the clock.
Solutions?.well I"ve seen a player (not in the hand) ask the dealer if its "nearly" time to call the clock?!
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structure was superb and only needs a little tweaking to give a sensible finish time. this should do it imo
- increase antes on levels 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 18. the others are spot on
- extra level at end of saturday, ideally 2
- do not break any tables until field is at 171. then go to 9 handed tables. this will make for a better game as well as getting in more orbits speeding up the tourney
combine these with not having a huge break pre final table and the structure should work really well
the split dinner break will also make a contribution though not a great one. having 2x45 minutes staggered as opposed to 1x60minutes only saves 15 minutes overall
That sounds bang on.
I think this tournament was just a bit anomalous, the super tight play after the bubble was a bit odd to see especially given the flat payout structure up until top 3. Probably just a bit of nerves and tiredness after two long days I guess.
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... it seems like a crazy time to be finishing on a Sunday night ...
Structure to be tweaked ... if there are 200 runners needs more of a twist I think.
I would be keen to kick antes in quicker ... only way to induce early action with "rocks" getting eaten away.
Various other threads have eluded to the fact this was a one off ... but it looked like a late late finish from very early on.
It must have affected some players needing to get home etc ...
I look forward to thoughts.
Louis
I have not read ANY of the posts below so i am sorry if i may have repeated anything from anybody.
The main reason for the late finishing time was basically the amount of people down to the last 30-40 not being able to play a short stack. There were no risks taken which should have been taken and no one grabbed the game by the balls one bit. If someone decided to do that the game would have been over ALOT quicker.
I am not ****ting on anyones play but it really was like watching paint dry the amount of SUPER "tight" play near the end.
However i personally put this down to the standard of tournament poker at the moment.
Like your opinion counts for anything ::)
The way you have behaved on countless forums over the years I don"t think New Zealand is far enough for you.
Bye!
Ermmmmm thats a bit harsh?
a) I have no idea who you are (might be a good thing)
b) You dont know me
c) Countless forums? I seem to recall only having 4 memberships (APAT, Bristol meetup, gambling.co.uk and blonde (very rarely post))
d) Most jokes i make are very tongue in cheek and it does take a bit of intelligence to understand them.
Like i said before i was not putting down anyones play but if they want to play like that its fine. But dont expect the game to be over in time if thats the case.
So please stay under your rock ;)
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I think i am probably who the "Clock" argument is aimed at. I took a while on 2 decisions, one with 55 and one with 77. I was trying to use my absolutely exhausted brain to figure out if i fancied putting my tournament life on the line with them hands.
I appologised at the time for both of them, but it was a pretty major decision considering i was short stacked at the table!
I think the way that one or 2 people were trying to get the clock called was borderline intimidation to be honest, and was not really that helpful.
Just my thoughts.