Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Honeybadg on March 10, 2009, 21:32:42 PM
-
$50k g"tee $50 re-buy
I have 9000 chips ... blinds are 60/120
UTG I hold KK ... I raise to 360
Early position flat calls. (10,000 chips)
Late position flat calls. (11,000 chips)
Flop is 789 (two spades)
I bet the pot 1260.
Early position goes all in for 10k
Late position calls for 11k.
I fold.
Correct?
What do my opponents hold?
Answers at the next break ... I am currently 52nd of 207 ... 40 paid.
L
-
easy fold yes
must be looking at a draw from the shover vs a made hand that put shover on a draw. Caller could be calling quite light here meaning you had the best hand??
-
Yep I would fold here too- u could easily be drawing dead to runner runner.
FWIW do u always pot the flop in this spot?
-
... what does FWIW stand for?
I would normally bet the pot here ... find out where I am ... what might you do?
The ludicrous initial all in holds TT.
The caller 88 (my favourite hand!) ... for a made set which holds up.
L
-
FWIW= For What It"s Worth
Would u pot it with AK?
I may check and peel a turn card on that board but I wouldn"t bet the pot cos:
1) U can get the same info with a 3/4 pot bet
2) You"re telling the others what u have.
If only one shoves would u call?
-
Normally ...
AK I would check ...
3/4 ... yes I might do that ... or some weird mystical 999 bet
If only the first player shoves - then I call (I think) could be a great trap ... but I expect not.
I am much more bothered about the late position caller ... what is he flat calling with ... big favourites ... 77,88,99 or the gone TT maybe lower pairs ... but I hate checking and giving free cards ...
Given the very high BB ratios ... do you have any time for raising more ... MIGHT chase away the 88 ... might chase everyone away ...
Very like getting KK or AA very early in deep stack tournaments ...
L
-
I actually raise less pre at this level lol
Make your raises standard- if you wanna 4* pre with KK you have to do the same with your weaker hands else people will know when u have a hand or not
Same with your c-bets- keep them standard else your giving away too much info about your hand
-
I would be 3 x BB raising utg.
With the 2 callers and a dangerous flop of 789 a smaller c-bet of, say, 3/4 of the pot as a feeler to see where I am.
With the 2 all ins I am folding, due to the possibility of one of them either already hitting the str8, a set or on a str8 or flush draw.
As George says, need to keep it pretty much standard on how you play weak and strong hands so that they don"t know what range of hands you are possibly raising or c-betting with.
Good fold anyhoo and how did you finish up?
Also, I was in a similar scenario with that flop in Walsall.
Both of us have approx 11k, him slightly more chips than I.
I have TJ on the BB, utg limps in, and I flat check. Flop comes down 789 giving me the str8. I check, he bets, i reraise over the top and then I cant recall exactly but I think he went all in there or he reraised again and I put the rest of my chips in.
He shows 77 for a set and I have the str8, 7 to J, turn comes an 8 and thats me out of the tournament.
Afterwards I gave it a great deal of thought, and maybe I shouldve just called his bet post flop rather than re-raising to see that turn card and then if the board hasnt paired, with only 1 card to go make an all in push, my thinking on this tho is there was no way he was folding his set.
What do you think on my play and what went down? Should I have raised pre, would it have made any difference to the outcome of the hand? Was I being over keen to call his all in?
-
... I finished 53rd of 380 with 40 paid ...
600/1200 ante 120 ... I have c14000 chips ...
Chip Leader limps UTG
I got all in with QQ ... happy for everyone to fold ... but
Chip leader calls with AK (sigh) .. flop AKJ ... no help ...
Not trying to limp to $300 ... annoying but standard exit.
WALSALL HAND
I would have checked as you did and then went all in after his raise ... hard to see anything but all the chips going in here though ...
Had he managed to fold his made set massive credit to both parties ...
EYES WIDE SHUT - aka The FRUIT MACHINE.
No third podium in a row for me ... about 35th of 87 ... when QJs goes needlessly over the top of my TT with others to act ... but wins the race.
Night off tonight - maybe???
Looking forward to the Sunday league match.
Louis
-
Me too, should be a good weekend :)
-
I would be 3 x BB raising utg.
With the 2 callers and a dangerous flop of 789 a smaller c-bet of, say, 3/4 of the pot as a feeler to see where I am.
With the 2 all ins I am folding, due to the possibility of one of them either already hitting the str8, a set or on a str8 or flush draw.
As George says, need to keep it pretty much standard on how you play weak and strong hands so that they don"t know what range of hands you are possibly raising or c-betting with.
Good fold anyhoo and how did you finish up?
Also, I was in a similar scenario with that flop in Walsall.
Both of us have approx 11k, him slightly more chips than I.
I have TJ on the BB, utg limps in, and I flat check. Flop comes down 789 giving me the str8. I check, he bets, i reraise over the top and then I cant recall exactly but I think he went all in there or he reraised again and I put the rest of my chips in.
He shows 77 for a set and I have the str8, 7 to J, turn comes an 8 and thats me out of the tournament.
Afterwards I gave it a great deal of thought, and maybe I shouldve just called his bet post flop rather than re-raising to see that turn card and then if the board hasnt paired, with only 1 card to go make an all in push, my thinking on this tho is there was no way he was folding his set.
What do you think on my play and what went down? Should I have raised pre, would it have made any difference to the outcome of the hand? Was I being over keen to call his all in?
U did nothing wrong in this hand Mary- if you have Aces and are pretty sure someone has KK you want to get the money in pre. You can"t flat call- see if a King comes and fold the flop!
Ur just unlucky the board paired
-
... post flop you are "only" 65/35 ahead if they have 77,88,99 ... so I think you have to give them a chance to fold ... (very unlikely I woud say) ... but give them a chance to ... by going all in ... not just re-raising for me.
L
-
Re Louis hand, I think Mair"s summation is pretty spot on, and I would be following a similar line.
Re Mairs hand at Walsall, major cooler, again I would have been walking to the rail, and then thinking just the same as you Mair, re seeing another card, but realistically I think 95% of us would have done the same.
-
don"t like pot betting at any stage, just put a normal 2/3rd - 3/4 bet in.
trouble is that flop has semi bluff written all over it and depending on player reads i may check here as i am badly OOP and it is prime for somebody to make a play or have a better hand than me as it is all over a cold-calling range. As played it is a fold.
-
agree with the pot betting...one of the worst bets you can make it just makes you look weak
everything else was standard
-
... I am not too excited about 3/4 the pot bets ... beyond the fact you save 1/4 pot bet when you auto-fold ...
I like 3/4 bets when you have flopped the nuts though ...
I am going to think about this a little more ...
I hate checking here ... just giving up on the hand ... unless you hit a K
Let"s say the last to act has nothing ... then I am calling the TT raise with KK ... and the odds are 62/38 in my favour ... mmm not sure I do want to do this ... but at the time I think that I would have.
Cannot start folding KK under the gun!
Once the last to act has called trivial fold ...
L
-
Also, I was in a similar scenario with that flop in Walsall.
Both of us have approx 11k, him slightly more chips than I.
I have TJ on the BB, utg limps in, and I flat check. Flop comes down 789 giving me the str8. I check, he bets, i reraise over the top and then I cant recall exactly but I think he went all in there or he reraised again and I put the rest of my chips in.
He shows 77 for a set and I have the str8, 7 to J, turn comes an 8 and thats me out of the tournament.
Afterwards I gave it a great deal of thought, and maybe I shouldve just called his bet post flop rather than re-raising to see that turn card and then if the board hasnt paired, with only 1 card to go make an all in push, my thinking on this tho is there was no way he was folding his set.
What do you think on my play and what went down? Should I have raised pre, would it have made any difference to the outcome of the hand? Was I being over keen to call his all in?
For what it"s worth, I don"t think there"s anything wrong with your play in this hand. You"ve got your money in as a (reasonably decent) favourite. Given the hands, it"s pretty standard that you"ve both got it in on the flop I think. You certainly can"t fold at any point so given that he has re-raised it has to end this way.
It has made me think about spots where there is possibly value on peeling off that extra card before commiting and I came up with the following scenario:
Same scenario as above but the limper is actually on the button (I just want to open his range up a little). Lets say blinds are 100/200 giving a starting pot of 500 and you both have a starting stack of 10k.
Flop comes 789 rainbow and you hold JT and decide to chk-raise. He bets 400 and you raise to 1300. He then re-raises to 4000. At this point the standard move is a shove from you and I don"t think anyone will fault that play. As an exercise though lets consider another possible line.
Assuming villain is not an idiot and is not making a move, I think it"s fair to put his range as 2Pair+. Below calculations are very rough.
JT - Split pot (assuming no backdoor fd for either player)
98/97/87 - 4 outs - about a 5:1 dog
77/88/99 - 7.5 outs - about a 2:1 dog
T6/65 - Dead - I"m ignoring his outs 2 a split pot as T6 is a pretty unlikely limp and I"m lazy
Now I"m wondering is there any value in smooth calling here and shoving any non-7/8/9 turn?
Conversely, if the board does pair on the turn we check/shove or shove any river if he checks behind. What I like about this is that we probably take him off JT which is a massive plus for us obviously, but whether it"s worth the possible lost value of hands that may fold here but would have got it in to a flop shove I don"t know.
Apologies that this was a bit long and rambly and I haven"t really drawn any conclusions. I just kinda wrote stuff down as I thought about it. I"d love to know peoples thoughts on this line or similar things though......
-
... I am not too excited about 3/4 the pot bets ... beyond the fact you save 1/4 pot bet when you auto-fold ...
I like 3/4 bets when you have flopped the nuts though ...
I am going to think about this a little more ...
I hate checking here ... just giving up on the hand ... unless you hit a K
Let"s say the last to act has nothing ... then I am calling the TT raise with KK ... and the odds are 62/38 in my favour ... mmm not sure I do want to do this ... but at the time I think that I would have.
Cannot start folding KK under the gun!
Once the last to act has called trivial fold ...
L
Louis if you pot bet without the nuts and 3/4 the pot with the nuts- aren"t u telling people basically what you"re holding? It"s very exploitable unless
1) You"re pot betting every flop or 3/4 betting every flop
2) Mixing your game up by varying your bets with each
-
... I am playing a bit now ... bets are always mixed up ...
The point of the post was the "trivial fold" part ... I did bet the pot on this occasion ... I am not saying I would always bet the pot ...
Some of the feedback is you should never bet the pot ... which seems odd.
L
-
it is because the pot bet is always seen as a protective bet - ie top pair, bottom 2, overpair on a scary board etc.
it is usually a bad bet because it folds out all hands you beat, gets action from hands that beat you and telegraphs your hand to good players. It is only good for valuetowning poor players in an obvious spot where you are good. It also means you have to bet more when you are c-betting to avoid bet sizing tells, which isn"t good.
i still think checking here isn"t terrible fwiw.
-
yeh I would probably check this board too
-
... really enjoying the banter here ... for me the check here is effectively giving up on the hand ... what bet would you call ... you give the hand to the person in position or are you looking for a raise in order to re-raise ... looks very dangerous to me!
Interested in thoughts.
L
-
a check isn"t always weakness. But it can control the pot so that if you are up against draws/combos you don"t get so deep that you can"t get away. If you give away a free card it isn"t a sin, you can get away cheap from a dangerous card or play when drawing hands have reduced equity.
bet/folding is giving up the pot, you are leading blindly into a dangerous board where the very best you can hope for is to get both players to fold really. Betting "to see where you are" is overused and overrated.
by betting you are creating a bigger pot, if you get flatted in one or two spots you are potentially in bad shape - what would be your plan for the turn if you bet the flop and got flat called - would you give up on the pot or keep firing?
-
"Betting "to see where you are" is overused and overrated"
I think you have to try and know where you are ...
(I will come back to the rest in a moment - 5.15pm race about to run!)
L
-
it is because the pot bet is always seen as a protective bet - ie top pair, bottom 2, overpair on a scary board etc.
it is usually a bad bet because it folds out all hands you beat, gets action from hands that beat you and telegraphs your hand to good players. It is only good for valuetowning poor players in an obvious spot where you are good. It also means you have to bet more when you are c-betting to avoid bet sizing tells, which isn"t good.
i still think checking here isn"t terrible fwiw.
^^^^
This
a check isn"t always weakness. But it can control the pot so that if you are up against draws/combos you don"t get so deep that you can"t get away. If you give away a free card it isn"t a sin, you can get away cheap from a dangerous card or play when drawing hands have reduced equity.
bet/folding is giving up the pot, you are leading blindly into a dangerous board where the very best you can hope for is to get both players to fold really. Betting "to see where you are" is overused and overrated.
by betting you are creating a bigger pot, if you get flatted in one or two spots you are potentially in bad shape - what would be your plan for the turn if you bet the flop and got flat called - would you give up on the pot or keep firing?
^^^^^^^^
excellent stuff