Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: noble1 on March 17, 2009, 04:13:35 AM
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$50+$5 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - Blinds 3500/7000 ante 700
UTG: 138548 M = 8.25 20bb
Hero (UTG+1): 240462 M = 14.31 34bb
UTG+2: 318266 M = 18.94 45bb
MP1: 135668 M = 8.08 19bb
MP2: 272153 M = 16.20 39bb
CO: 277540 M = 16.52 39bb
BTN: 225182 M = 13.40 32bb
SB: 86489 M = 5.15 12bb
BB: 94536 M = 5.63 13bb
Pre Flop: (pot-16800) Hero is UTG+1 with jh js
UTG raises to 21000, Hero ?
40 players left , so fairly deep in the cash but by no means life changing..
No reads to go by [just moved to table],so what would be your action and why?
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UG is 20 BB so not yet on life support, so standard raise from EP you have to put him on PP or Big Ace. Hero is well positioned with 34bb, so does not need to get involved with Js from early position with no reads, we all know how tricky Js can be. Having said that if it was me, then I would probs call! And hope to get it through the remaining players, (though setting myself up for a squeeze). Then if the flop is under cards be prepared to push!
But all in all I think the best option would be to lay "em down, cos if you raised you leave yourself open to a push from UG.
God that sounds muddled, who wants to be in my head this morning! :D
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Hey Noble, you must have frightened everybody off!! ;)
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3bet to call push
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Hey Noble, you must have frightened everybody off!! ;)
seems a std situation , just wanted some opinions. :)
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1. CALL? Too many players to act afterwards who might squeeze - and not sure I would want to over commit with JJ at this stage, hence would be folding to a squeeze. Also, if no squeeze comes, and flop comes 10 hi..... and UTG gives you a decision for your whole stack, would you be prepared to call? Possibly not, so better to not flat call preflop.
2. RAISE? Standard raise to around 6000 is a possibility, but would you call a shove from UTG? Possibly not. Also, if UTG plays tricky and calls, then bets a flop with overs....?
3. SHOVE? No way - the only hands UTG will fold are those which you are beating.
4. FOLD? There"s got to be a good argument for folding here with so many players to act behind, and against an UTG raise.
I think I would fold in this spot. If a little nearer the button I would probably call and try and play the flop in position. If in the blinds, and the open raise came from late position I would probably make a big raise (possibly even shove). But in early position, against an UTG raiser, and with a nice sized and playable stack, I"m folding and waiting for a better spot.
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I honestly think I"d call here
However, I think this may be a bit spewy because as steve (AMRN) says I am folding on a flop with undercards if put under pressure. Are the effective stacks possibly not quite big enough to be set mining here? they probably are too small, so that leaves raise or fold.
A standard reraise to 60-65K commits you to the hand and shoving will only get called by a better hand. With no read on the UTG raiser, you have to think that you are behind his range and given that there are still others to act then fold is possibly the way to go. It just seems a bit nitty to be folding JJ. .
with the fast pace of online tourneys, I"d probably still call....a leak possibly.
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I agree that it seems a bit nitty to be folding JJ here but I think that's the play I'd make.
New to the table with no reads it is certainly possible that the UTG raise is a steal but It's just as possible that he has a genuine hand and if you raise and he shoves then you can't call.
If you just call and the others at the table are of the opinion (with their extra knowledge of this UTG player) that his 3x raise is a steal then your call is not showing any strength and just building a pot which someone may decided to take a stab at with a push.
If I'd been at this table for a couple of rounds then the situation may have been a lot different but with such a good stack I'd wait for a better spot.
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You have the 4th best starting hand. Not sure why everyone"s so keen to fold?
You say you have no reads on the UTG player - so you have to assume he has some sort of hand.
I raise to isolate, and call a shove from UTG.
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You have the 4th best starting hand. Not sure why everyone"s so keen to fold?
You say you have no reads on the UTG player - so you have to assume he has some sort of hand.
I raise to isolate, and call a shove from UTG.
hmmmmmm how would you know what to do Dan? This is way past the end of Level One!! ahhhh perhaps therein lies an explanation :)
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You have the 4th best starting hand. Not sure why everyone"s so keen to fold?
You say you have no reads on the UTG player - so you have to assume he has some sort of hand.
I raise to isolate, and call a shove from UTG.
hmmmmmm how would you know what to do Dan? This is way past the end of Level One!! ahhhh perhaps therein lies an explanation :)
More respect for the 1993 english amateur champ please steve
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3bet to call push
This.
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Because utg steals are so common now [a lot of players still raise fold to 3bets when in the 20bb size area] and that nowadays a lot of players have a huge range utg , if i size my bet and re-raise to 49000 with the intention of calling any all in by MP1 SB BB or UTG 4bet but will fold to a 4bet from any of the other bigger stacks that can bust me.
How would you view this line of play?
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You have the 4th best starting hand. Not sure why everyone"s so keen to fold?
You say you have no reads on the UTG player - so you have to assume he has some sort of hand.
I raise to isolate, and call a shove from UTG.
hmmmmmm how would you know what to do Dan? This is way past the end of Level One!! ahhhh perhaps therein lies an explanation :)
Like that is it? Maybe I should have mentioned getting it in behind and then hitting my miracle card on the river?
;)
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You have the 4th best starting hand. Not sure why everyone"s so keen to fold?
You say you have no reads on the UTG player - so you have to assume he has some sort of hand.
I raise to isolate, and call a shove from UTG.
hmmmmmm how would you know what to do Dan? This is way past the end of Level One!! ahhhh perhaps therein lies an explanation :)
Like that is it? Maybe I should have mentioned getting it in behind and then hitting my miracle card on the river?
;)
I don"t rely on miracle river cards Dan....... I go the whole hog and rely on perfect runner runners!!
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Because utg steals are so common now
"UTG is the new button" ?
Does this mean we can no longer put UTG raisers on a range of hands?
Do you think it is correct to think we are beating UTG raisers range if we have no info on him?
In my post, I thought folding was probably too nitty but thought the standard 3-bet to 60-65K committed you to the hand v players yet to act. A 3-bet to 49K is clever in that it only commits you to the UTG raiser and the shorties.
I just have a problem risking putting myself short stacked after tangling with an UTG raiser. I think this move would be great having watched the table for a bit.
Having said that, my move (a call) is looking weaker and weaker the more I type.
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You have the 4th best starting hand. Not sure why everyone"s so keen to fold?
You say you have no reads on the UTG player - so you have to assume he has some sort of hand.
I raise to isolate, and call a shove from UTG.
hmmmmmm how would you know what to do Dan? This is way past the end of Level One!! ahhhh perhaps therein lies an explanation :)
Like that is it? Maybe I should have mentioned getting it in behind and then hitting my miracle card on the river?
;)
I don"t rely on miracle river cards Dan....... I go the whole hog and rely on perfect runner runners!!
:D
Fair play fella!
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Because utg steals are so common now
"UTG is the new button" ?
Does this mean we can no longer put UTG raisers on a range of hands?
Do you think it is correct to think we are beating UTG raisers range if we have no info on him?
In my post, I thought folding was probably too nitty but thought the standard 3-bet to 60-65K committed you to the hand v players yet to act. A 3-bet to 49K is clever in that it only commits you to the UTG raiser and the shorties.
I just have a problem risking putting myself short stacked after tangling with an UTG raiser. I think this move would be great having watched the table for a bit.
Having said that, my move (a call) is looking weaker and weaker the more I type.
It wasn"t very strong to start with...
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Because utg steals are so common now
"UTG is the new button" ?
Does this mean we can no longer put UTG raisers on a range of hands?
Do you think it is correct to think we are beating UTG raisers range if we have no info on him?
In my post, I thought folding was probably too nitty but thought the standard 3-bet to 60-65K committed you to the hand v players yet to act. A 3-bet to 49K is clever in that it only commits you to the UTG raiser and the shorties.
I just have a problem risking putting myself short stacked after tangling with an UTG raiser. I think this move would be great having watched the table for a bit.
Having said that, my move (a call) is looking weaker and weaker the more I type.
being fairly deep i like to gamble now to try and win the lot or at least get a lot deeper ,at this stage i"m not shy of the odd risk.If utg has me beat i can hit a miracle 2 outer,if i lose i"m happy with 14bb/and my short stack game , one double up and i"m back to where i was..
the 3bet/my position/lack of image line for me is enough to stop most sickos [stacks that cover me]4betting and if they do,i can fold it [no probs ::)]
i also met get everyone to fold...
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In last nights satellite, I got dealt Js in almost the exact same seating order, but it was fairly early in the tournament. Oh how I did laugh! Anyway, I had been playing some rubbish poker and lost more than 20% of my stack in the first 20 minutes when I was dealt these.
So EP raise, I called, put him on a big ace, and decided to see the flop. Just the two of us saw 3 low cards, and a possible flush draw. EP bet about 2/3 of the pot and I pushed. He pretty insta called ( don"t blame him, I was playing poor) and yee ha the jacks held, and put me in a good spot, was actually CL at the first break.
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i 3bet/get it in here.
sure we don"t need to get involved, but we have UTG covered and to win you shouldn"t wait until you need to get involved.
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In last nights satellite, I got dealt Js in almost the exact same seating order, but it was fairly early in the tournament. Oh how I did laugh! Anyway, I had been playing some rubbish poker and lost more than 20% of my stack in the first 20 minutes when I was dealt these.
So EP raise, I called, put him on a big ace, and decided to see the flop. Just the two of us saw 3 low cards, and a possible flush draw. EP bet about 2/3 of the pot and I pushed. He pretty insta called ( don"t blame him, I was playing poor) and yee ha the jacks held, and put me in a good spot, was actually CL at the first break.
i hope u won a seat mikey..
JJ are tricky to play and your situation in the early stages with deeper stacks / smaller blinds does warrant just a call.
As long as you can adapt to stack sizes and the style/skill level of your opponents and be aware of your own image there are always a number of ways to approach all kinds of hands...
Like in my case with JJ if i had been at the table for a while and had reads and knew there were a loose aggressive bunch to my left who loved 3bets/squeezes then flat calling hoping for a squeeze is a definite option.
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No didn"t make it Noble, Final tabled in a good situation, but donked "em off badly in 2 consecutive hands, out in 9th :"(