Amateur Poker Association & Tour

Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: noble1 on April 12, 2009, 16:30:44 PM

Title: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 12, 2009, 16:30:44 PM
level 50/100  all stacks involved around 3000
Guy raises in MP to 250. [notes on him as std Tag]
I call on button with 9s4s.
The BB calls and joins the fun.
Flop comes Ks5c3h.
BB checks MP bets 350 I call BB folds.
Turn 7c.
MP checks - how would you proceed here?

cheers...
noble
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: mal666 on April 12, 2009, 16:50:01 PM
650
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: AMRN on April 12, 2009, 16:52:18 PM
i would bet 75%-100% of the pot, and fold to any re-raise. If he calls then checks the turn, I would probably take the same line after the turn.  May be spewy, but gonna take the pot a ton of the time.


Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: bigredders on April 12, 2009, 17:02:59 PM

i would bet 75%-100% of the pot, and fold to any re-raise. If he calls then checks the turn, I would probably take the same line after the turn.  May be spewy, but gonna take the pot a ton of the time.





we are already on the turn steve! what mal said...600-700 bet, his check says he has given up after his c bet
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 12, 2009, 20:30:24 PM
thx guys,the games are tougher now and my std move/line would be to lead these spots as well..
The crafty TAGS if they have say a pair like QQ JJ TT etc even there Ace J/Q hands are less reluctant to fold these days [its getting harder to find enough scared opponents anymore  ;D]
But in this spot i find it very common now that QQ JJ etc will snap call my turn bluff and i cannot continue on the river as they shove there remaining stack,some even now check raise all in the turn..
So my line now is to check behind on the turn, and when/if he value bets his 2 jacks etc etc on the river [mostly they throw out a blocker], i instantly shove, and I mean instantly..(unless the river is a 6, then i min raise instead ::)).
If they check the river i tend to bet 1/2 pot or just over and if they call that i still have enough back for a double up to be back where i started..

Anyone strongly disagree with this line?
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 12, 2009, 22:05:24 PM
same situation but slightly deeper stacked,anyone think a river bet may of took it?

PokerStars Game #27018054443: Tournament #200904223, $10000+$300 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (25/50) - 2009/04/12 16:47:50 ET
Table "200904223 49" 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: CASINOICE (10400 in chips)
Seat 3: jornxx (9825 in chips)
Seat 4: Big_Nemo (10125 in chips)
Seat 5: area23JC (10725 in chips)
Seat 6: actaml (10225 in chips)
Seat 7: Goldenboys (9300 in chips)
Seat 8: I"am_Sound (9025 in chips)
Seat 9: caio_pimenta (10375 in chips)
Big_Nemo: posts small blind 25
area23JC: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
actaml: folds
Goldenboys: folds
I"am_Sound: folds
caio_pimenta: folds
CASINOICE: folds
jornxx: folds
Big_Nemo: raises 150 to 200
area23JC: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [6h 9d 8h]
Big_Nemo: bets 300
area23JC: calls 300
*** TURN *** [6h 9d 8h] [3d]
Big_Nemo: checks
area23JC: bets 550
Big_Nemo: calls 550
*** RIVER *** [6h 9d 8h 3d] [2c]
Big_Nemo: checks
area23JC: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Big_Nemo: shows [Jd Js] (a pair of Jacks)
area23JC: mucks hand
Big_Nemo collected 2100 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2100 | Rake 0
Board [6h 9d 8h 3d 2c]
Seat 1: CASINOICE folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: jornxx (button) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 4: Big_Nemo (small blind) showed [Jd Js] and won (2100) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 5: area23JC (big blind) mucked [Jh Th]
Seat 6: actaml folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 7: Goldenboys folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: I"am_Sound folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 9: caio_pimenta folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: tonyj444 on April 17, 2009, 16:57:04 PM
Seems pretty unlikely for a river bet to take this down.  BigNemo surely has to assume that most (if not all) hands that are ahead of his JJ on that flop will raise due to the scary board.  The turn and river dont connect with anything (other than some unlikely floating hands 22/33/45) so a big percentage of the time BigNemo has to assume he is still good.

I"m quite surprised that area23JC hasn"t raised this flop though.  He has a big hand and plenty of fold equity. His flat on this flop essentially means he either has to hit his draw or hope that BigNemo has overs and gives up on the turn.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: mal666 on April 17, 2009, 17:09:54 PM

thx guys,the games are tougher now and my std move/line would be to lead these spots as well..
The crafty TAGS if they have say a pair like QQ JJ TT etc even there Ace J/Q hands are less reluctant to fold these days [its getting harder to find enough scared opponents anymore  ;D]
But in this spot i find it very common now that QQ JJ etc will snap call my turn bluff and i cannot continue on the river as they shove there remaining stack,some even now check raise all in the turn..
So my line now is to check behind on the turn, and when/if he value bets his 2 jacks etc etc on the river [mostly they throw out a blocker], i instantly shove, and I mean instantly..(unless the river is a 6, then i min raise instead ::)).
If they check the river i tend to bet 1/2 pot or just over and if they call that i still have enough back for a double up to be back where i started..

Anyone strongly disagree with this line?


Default is c/call river, the blocker is dead, too exploitable.
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on April 17, 2009, 17:16:22 PM
I don"t think a river bet would have got Nemo off his hand, he has already check called, and is just trying to control the pot, but I think he is pretty sure he is ahead. I am sure he is putting the other guy on a draw, and when the river comes down as it has, he still thinks he is ahead, and would in my opinion have called a bet on the river.
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 17, 2009, 17:33:21 PM
now put a King on the flop same pattern of play on the flop but check turn [JC Tran] bet river , who thinks oop villain fancies his Jacks now?  
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on April 17, 2009, 19:58:16 PM
Now he isn"t as sure! And may well fold to a decent sized river bet, not sure I would, actually it would depend on what mood I was in!!
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 17, 2009, 22:53:40 PM

Now he isn"t as sure! And may well fold to a decent sized river bet, not sure I would, actually it would depend on what mood I was in!!


lol now u met get me thinking about a psychology thread and ways that its applied.......  lmao  ....... oh before i forget..FA cup !!!!


Come on you Toffees...whoop whoop whoop
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 17, 2009, 22:59:38 PM


thx guys,the games are tougher now and my std move/line would be to lead these spots as well..
The crafty TAGS if they have say a pair like QQ JJ TT etc even there Ace J/Q hands are less reluctant to fold these days [its getting harder to find enough scared opponents anymore  ;D]
But in this spot i find it very common now that QQ JJ etc will snap call my turn bluff and i cannot continue on the river as they shove there remaining stack,some even now check raise all in the turn..
So my line now is to check behind on the turn, and when/if he value bets his 2 jacks etc etc on the river [mostly they throw out a blocker], i instantly shove, and I mean instantly..(unless the river is a 6, then i min raise instead ::)).
If they check the river i tend to bet 1/2 pot or just over and if they call that i still have enough back for a double up to be back where i started..

Anyone strongly disagree with this line?


Default is c/call river, the blocker is dead, too exploitable.


the blocker bet is still thriving,if they check river in view to call , what if we go all in?
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: mal666 on April 17, 2009, 23:28:27 PM



thx guys,the games are tougher now and my std move/line would be to lead these spots as well..
The crafty TAGS if they have say a pair like QQ JJ TT etc even there Ace J/Q hands are less reluctant to fold these days [its getting harder to find enough scared opponents anymore  ;D]
But in this spot i find it very common now that QQ JJ etc will snap call my turn bluff and i cannot continue on the river as they shove there remaining stack,some even now check raise all in the turn..
So my line now is to check behind on the turn, and when/if he value bets his 2 jacks etc etc on the river [mostly they throw out a blocker], i instantly shove, and I mean instantly..(unless the river is a 6, then i min raise instead ::)).
If they check the river i tend to bet 1/2 pot or just over and if they call that i still have enough back for a double up to be back where i started..

Anyone strongly disagree with this line?


Default is c/call river, the blocker is dead, too exploitable.


the blocker bet is still thriving,if they check river in view to call , what if we go all in?

Then you get soul pwned, gg.
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 18, 2009, 09:55:02 AM
Quote
Default is c/call river, the blocker is dead, too exploitable.

i agree that if you use certain lines of play to much then players will exploit it if you do not adjust to them adjusting..
you only become exploitable if you do not adjust to there new strategy of trying to exploit you....
the best to exploit are weak bad players or non thinking nits ;D imo [mainly low buy ins or early stages of a sunday mtt for example] .... Exploiting your own image is commonly used as is taking advantage of a opponents pattern of play..One key to successful poker is to create a poker table image and to integrate different playing styles with the ability to become flexible based from the way your opponents perceive your image.This will keep your opponents off the track and if the more they are unable to perceive you switching poker table image correctly the more they will make mistakes and this translates to winning there chips..
sorry i just hate this common view in a lot of forums that such and such is ""exploitable"" imo that is complete tosh as long as the player can re-adjust everything can be swung the other way round and the chump who thinks he is exploiting some1 ends up being the one exploited because he did not realize that his target had adjusted in anticipation of him trying to exploit him.. ;D
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: mal666 on April 18, 2009, 11:16:29 AM
your posting hh`s from a $10k event how many of these players are weak bad non thinking nits?
In the example given your getting called on the river no matter how you try to approach it.



Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 18, 2009, 16:24:35 PM
PokerStars Game #26775423665: Tournament #200904083, $3000+$150 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (350/700) - 2009/04/06 0:00:05 ET
Table "200904083 12" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: plattsburgh (57465 in chips)
Seat 2: hervios (53402 in chips)
Seat 3: LeoFernandez (21005 in chips)
Seat 4: BeL0WaB0Ve (12200 in chips)
Seat 5: alwaysnice (47637 in chips)
Seat 6: Daut44 (63291 in chips)
Seat 7: Babooyah (30558 in chips)
Seat 8: DonRane (20708 in chips)
Seat 9: #1PEN (20663 in chips)
plattsburgh: posts the ante 85
hervios: posts the ante 85
LeoFernandez: posts the ante 85
BeL0WaB0Ve: posts the ante 85
alwaysnice: posts the ante 85
Daut44: posts the ante 85
Babooyah: posts the ante 85
DonRane: posts the ante 85
#1PEN: posts the ante 85
LeoFernandez: posts small blind 350
BeL0WaB0Ve: posts big blind 700
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to plattsburgh [ qh qd]
alwaysnice: folds
Daut44: folds
Babooyah: folds
DonRane: folds
#1PEN: folds
plattsburgh: raises 880 to 1580
hervios: calls 1580
LeoFernandez: folds
BeL0WaB0Ve: calls 880
*** FLOP *** [ :2h: 5h 5c]
BeL0WaB0Ve: checks
plattsburgh: bets 4280
hervios: calls 4280
BeL0WaB0Ve: folds
*** TURN *** [ :2h: 5h 5c] [ :2d:]
plattsburgh: checks
hervios: checks
*** RIVER *** [ :2h: 5h 5c  :2d:] [ :3d:]
plattsburgh: bets 9380
hervios: raises 38077 to 47457 and is all-in
plattsburgh: ??


Matt Vengrin
I have very little info on the agressor besides the fact hes from some random country. Anyways, let me know what you guys think about the flop, turn, and what the hell to do on the river:

replies
Jimmy Fricke
Bet the turn. There"s so much value and it makes the hand a lot easier to play.
As played it"s a ****ty spot, how long did it take him to shove the river? If it took a long time I"m more inclined to call but I certainly think you"re not good here very often with how big his shove was for.

Todd Terry
I"d need a strong read that this guy makes durrrr look like a nit to call the river here, I just don"t think people bluff here in this spot too often, especially for their entire stack in a $3K buy-in event.

Christian Harder
ur flop bet is a little too much imo. Also just go bet/bet/bet ez game. As played fold the river i guess



Mal not everyone thinks 1 pair is good on the river no matter what the buy in,but yes it is wise to adjust to your opponents skill level...In the case of JCTrans hand if nemo thought he was ahead for certain why did he check call the turn? please look at texture and position and his line of play.....What do you think a thinking player oop will make of his JJ oop if jctran is getting all aggressive on the river if he went all in? Also if Tran kept doing it how long before some1 calls him light and likewise what if tran anticipates it etc etc [Exploiting your own image]
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: mal666 on April 18, 2009, 20:11:18 PM
Noble you are the ultimate internet warrior, you post crap that you already have a fixed mindset on then invite replies purely so you can shoot them down unless they agree with your own line.
In the hh you gave a river bet is never going to win that pot, in the new one the dynamics are totally different its not even close to the one i commented on.
And pls please revisit the the sage thread cause your pi score for k4 is completely wrong.
Title: Re: playing position....
Post by: noble1 on April 18, 2009, 22:41:54 PM

Noble you are the ultimate internet warrior, you post crap that you already have a fixed mindset on then invite replies purely so you can shoot them down unless they agree with your own line.
In the hh you gave a river bet is never going to win that pot, in the new one the dynamics are totally different its not even close to the one i commented on.
And pls please revisit the the sage thread cause your pi score for k4 is completely wrong.



revisited and posted and as much as i enjoy constructive banter

your posting hh`s from a $10k event how many of these players are weak bad non thinking nits?
In the example given your getting called on the river no matter how you try to approach it.



i put up a line of play and asked for opinions,all the above just makes a statement of opinion without any argument as to why...I post up a similar line in which Matt found himself and he folded..this line of play is getting more common where
players with over pairs oop check the turn [for whatever reason] and end up in a pickle on the river if they lead for value or intend to check call a bet on the river but are baffled by the all in....

for example -
blulineJ (SB): t5135 M = 85.58
BrandonPL (BB): t1285 M = 21.42
pokerguru69 (UTG): t5337 M = 88.95
Hero (CO): t7170 M = 119.50
TheCronic420 (BTN): t6073 M = 101.22

Pre Flop: (t60) Hero is CO with K K
pokerguru69 raises to t120, Hero raises to t320, TheCronic420 calls t320, 2 folds, pokerguru69 calls t200

Flop: (t1020) 8c 7s  :2s: (3 players)
pokerguru69 checks, Hero bets t680, TheCronic420 calls t680, pokerguru69 folds

Turn: (t2380)  th (2 players)
Hero checks, TheCronic420 bets t980, Hero calls t980

River: (t4340)  :3d: (2 players)
Hero checks, TheCronic420 bets t4093 all in, Hero ?????

around 80% said fold...in mine where the stacks are even less deep most replies [around 75%] were for villain to fold
across the forums , so when you reply that i will get called no matter what , which intrigues me as you offer no explanation as to why?
Quote
you post crap that you already have a fixed mindset on


ty ty tyvm i do like to make a stand and play devils advocate , but if i think something is wrong then i will try to make whoever i reply to at least think... lol lol as for a fixed mindset errrr no i try to adjust my thinking on situations as poker
is a constantly changing beast and like most i try to digest and learn as much as possible and pass on to whoever wishes to listen...as i have done from players that i respect [but we still disagree on some things lol lol]

regards
noble1