Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: coprey on May 05, 2009, 10:16:07 AM
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Ok. I was short stacked an hour ago and ready to exit, but I had a triple up followed by a double up and am now sitting on 60k with blinds at 2000/1000.
Im on BB and its folded around to SB who is an aggressive French player who flat calls.
I look and find AcJc
What should I do?
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ps this is a live game ;)
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Excellent! A hand analysis given in stages...
What stack has the SB got and what is the average stack?
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SB approx 90k
Me approx 60k
Average approx 45k
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Ok then...
I think the standard play here is to raise to 6 or 7K. I"d be surprised that for an aggressive player, he has only made up and not raised. He could be trapping with a monster but is most likely weak. By raising you could get more idea on the strength of his hand if he calls or comes over the top.
There may be situations where checking is fine here and that certainly keeps the pot small, but I"ll settle for the raise. most times he will fold.
The only problem is if he calls your raise then you are probably going to have to play a big pot
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I would agree with Rob, and raise to 7k, and would expect the SB to fold. If he is agressive, he may be disguising a monster, that is all down to your read. If so he will possibly re pop you, and as Rob says you are now playing a big pot. In which case a check would have been the better option, as I said all down to your read.
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My read is, this guy is slippery and aggressive, I want to avoid playing flops with him. I dont want to give him a chance of hitting a rag. My instinct and from what I have seen so far is that he would have raised with a strong hand. I therefore put him on a weak hand.
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I generally dont like to raise on the BB too often and will often just check in this position, however I think many would agree that a raise is in order here. I opted to raise 7k as I put this player on a weak hand and was reluctant to let him see a flop and get creative.
I raise 7k, pot is now 11k
He announces re-raise and slides in 18k
I look again at my hand AcJc and im wondering what this guy is doing
Its gonna cost me another 11k to call
What do I do?
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the raise is good, i probably make it slightly smaller at 6k but this is fine.
BvB battles are hard to comment on in a vaccuum as so much is read/history dependant and AJs is very difficult to fold HU.
His line looks super strong and i may just fold here, except if i suspect he is making a move. His small re-raise against someone who doesn"t seem to be too aggro looks like a monster. You are either marginally in front/flipping or miles behind imo and this is one of the few spots where i may fold a large ace BvB
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With your read being "Slippery and aggressive" I would have just checked here. That would then give me a chance to re evaluate on the flop, a re pop was always on the cards, the flat call from the SB looked very suspect to me.
I think you can probably get away from it now, if you call then you have committed 30% of your stack and you still don"t know where you are, it is a difficuly fold though.
I presume you called?
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he has now put in 30% of his effective stack so probably isn"t folding. You have the option to fold or shove as calling cant really be an option now. How you procede from here is very read dependent and it is a tough spot. i see this move quite a bit in low stakes STTs. It can be big pair (QQ+) but I have seen weak players (trying to represent a monster) do this with very marginal holdings. (Ax, TJ, TQ, TK, JQ and maybe JK) Other holding such as pairs 22-JJ and AK, AQ, AJ, KQ would surely come in for a raise preflop.
Most of the time, online, I would shove over the min reraise, get called and am ahead most of the time. But that is with a bigger blinds to stack size.
In a live situation, my inexperience would probably get the better of me and I"d take the weak option of calling because I wouldn"t have the bottle to shove them in, unless i had a "Janet and John" read that he was weak and couldn"t bear to fold AJs in a HU situation. I"d then leave myself in a whole lot of bother going to the flop.
You also have to consider your mental state at this point. You have come back from the dead and are looking good now. Do you want to blow it all in a HU battle of egos? Or is this a great spot to challenge for the chip lead? I think letting it go is good. You are still pretty healthy. I"d also try and get the guy to show his hand as well.
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I would have checked the flop to avoid any chance of a preflop re-raise. If I miss the flop I fold to a bet and let my BB go.... if I hit the flop, the strength of my hand is somewhat disguised by the preflop check.
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Ok. Great reponses so far, thanks.
It starts to get painful.
I stand up and look at the guy, whats he up to. I start to think he has trapped me, but remember my initial instinct, that he has a weak hand. I feel lost in the hand - bad sign.
I look at the pot and my stack and realize there is a lot in there. Can I fold?
I dont think I can fold, but hate AJ now.
Because my hand is sooted I reckon I can call and still survive if the flop is bad.
I call
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Flop
K75 rainbow
He is to act first and bets 18k
What do I do?
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Col, i"m feeling your pain in this hand. I think your call was probably a mistake (a mistake that i"d have probably made too mind you) but its understandable.
shoving is definitely getting called now. you surely cant call now. That only leaves the fold. The fact that you stood up after his raise may have told him you had a playable but not a made hand and he is exploiting that???
i think you have to give him credit for a good hand. A few of the weak hands that I suggested a weak player might make that move with have now connected with the flop (A5, A7, KJ, KT or even K9???) but most will have missed.
Are you thinking you AJ was good and might still be??
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when you called did you have a plan for when you missed? remember you only have just over a PSB left by calling so decision on flop is terminal one way or another.
you have given up the initiative in the hand, he is going to fire like 90% of his range here and you have missed.
most of the time i just give up here unless i have a soul read that i am going to follow through. (but i either jam or fold pre)
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I appreciate your comments Rob and others.
All I could do was fold leaving myself with 40k.
I agree the call of the re-raise was probably fundamentally wrong.
In hindsight perhaps disguising this hand with checking the BB may have been the best move, especially against a player of this nature - slow play the aggressive player. Why go to war unless you can follow through and put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.
The guy put my mind at rest by turning his cards over when it was all done. Answers on a postcard or post here if you like.
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the blinds are where most players spew there chips,be it sb v bb or calling a lp raiser and being oop for the rest of the hand.
I like villains approach here as i like to limp in from the sb when only up against the bb especially if they are aggressive defenders [ego thing mostly or have a notion that they are getting bullied all the time]
If you have any history with him coprey at all in blind v blind and he has been raising every other time then i"d check and peel here.
I don"t like your raise size if you are going to fold to a re-raise , you can get the same result by making it 5000,5500 and save a bb... have a plan when you raise..
Everything indicates a big hand but i doubt it is every time,his range could be 77+ A8o+ Axs and seeming he is aggressive
KQs KJs - if i have someone to my left who i think sees monsters then this trick of posturing to look pot committed works a treat even though i know that i"ll fold to a re-raise... i do it sometimes when short stacked as well say 12bb and i std raise with total tripe ep knowing most see this as a big hand..oh and i fold if someone re-raises..
AJs in the bb is good to go as played after your raise and his re-raise there is 29000 out there , with 53000 back calling is not an option here [your stack size] so i favour a re-raise all in or fold , but as played with your read of him being aggressive -
My read is, this guy is slippery and aggressive, I want to avoid playing flops with him. I dont want to give him a chance of hitting a rag. My instinct and from what I have seen so far is that he would have raised with a strong hand. I therefore put him on a weak hand.
so go with your read and rr all in ....
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I think generally your raise preflop is fine. I don"t think you should let this hand put you off raising for value in this spot with position and usually the best hand.
i guess he had AA/KK or AK - but he should"t really show you if he did.
having said that he is French
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You had to fold, and he turns over pocket Qs.
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utter crap - T7s 94o 72o etc
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I"ll wait for Rob to guess.
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the blinds are where most players spew there chips,be it sb v bb or calling a lp raiser and being oop for the rest of the hand.
I like villains approach here as i like to limp in from the sb when only up against the bb especially if they are aggressive defenders [ego thing mostly or have a notion that they are getting bullied all the time]
He didnt see me aggressively defending my BB too much
If you have any history with him coprey at all in blind v blind and he has been raising every other time then i"d check and peel here.
Check and peel normally works for me against agressive players, for some reason I decided I didnt wanna play a flop with this guy
I don"t like your raise size if you are going to fold to a re-raise , you can get the same result by making it 5000,5500 and save a bb... have a plan when you raise..
Very good advice, this is what this experience has reaffirmed to me. A painful lesson is a learned lesson.
Everything indicates a big hand but i doubt it is every time,his range could be 77+ A8o+ Axs and seeming he is aggressive
KQs KJs - if i have someone to my left who i think sees monsters then this trick of posturing to look pot committed works a treat even though i know that i"ll fold to a re-raise... i do it sometimes when short stacked as well say 12bb and i std raise with total tripe ep knowing most see this as a big hand..oh and i fold if someone re-raises..
Are you talking about when you are SB v BB?
AJs in the bb is good to go as played after your raise and his re-raise there is 29000 out there , with 53000 back calling is not an option here [your stack size] so i favour a re-raise all in or fold , but as played with your read of him being aggressive -
My read is, this guy is slippery and aggressive, I want to avoid playing flops with him. I dont want to give him a chance of hitting a rag. My instinct and from what I have seen so far is that he would have raised with a strong hand. I therefore put him on a weak hand.
so go with your read and rr all in ....
I agree I had to be more decisive at this point. Many thanks for your constructive response.
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Are you talking about when you are SB v BB?
yep , i,m not saying villain here is doing this knowledgeably [repping a big hand by using his stack size/size of bet] to make you see monsters... i just used a short stack as an example to look pot committed but not :) as here if i feel that my opponent can think or i"ve seen in previous plays them slowing down and getting cautious in hu situations when boards get scary then i"ll mentally note that this type of move may work..
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So you raise on SB against weak players on BB to represent a monster. Have I understood that?
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no this spot he has limped rr putting in just under 1/3 of his stack - used his stack size and line of play to rep a big hand.
a lot will perceive it has a big hand.
with your initial impression that you think he will raise pre a strong hand in this spot then i think you have the best hand.
tough to say that he has adjusted his line to your image as we don"t know how he perceives you..
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no this spot he has limped rr putting in just under 1/3 of his stack - used his stack size and line of play to rep a big hand.
a lot will perceive it has a big hand.
Ok got ya.
I guess Rob is with class. Will post hand later.
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If he showed, I reckon it was the worst hand
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qd :3c: :o
Thanks for the feedback
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I was 50% right!! :D
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I was 50% right!! :D
I was 100% right ;D
I"d have probably played it the same way as you, colin, though we both agree its probably not the best way. :(
I think one problem I have playing live is trusting my instincts and not wishing to be embarrassed at the table. As I said, I"d have shoved over his reraise pre if it was online and most times been ahead. As an inexperienced live player, I"d have been mortified if I"d overplayed my AJ (sir perceval style ;)) and run into AA.
I still think that your raise pre was fine. It is a bit result orientated to suggest that checking is the best play here. I agree with Steve (AMRN) that it is a good way to mix it up by checking and disguising your hand if you hit on the flop. However you have a good hand in position in a HU situation and most times the SB will fold.
I also like the bet size of 7k. I know noble said that raising to 5K would get you the same result and save you chips if reraised. I"m not so sure!! I like the 2.5 BB raise as an open raise but in a limped pot (admittedly from SB) the raise will get called more times by a SB limper than if you had opened from say MP. Having said that, you generally want calls from players OOP with weak hands.
I also think that your oppo played a great hand here....cheeky git!!
I"d love to know what you think your table image was for him to want to do this to you ;D
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I think you are right about saving face with AJ. I have my rep. to protect :D
I thought I played that hand as badly as is possible but forgive myself because I was just outplayed by a courageous lunatic(I was actually impressed).
In terms of why he picked on me. I usually have a pretty solid image at the table. I reckon he saw me as a challenge. This is perhaps his favourite move and he might try it on maybe once every tourney. I imagine it is well suited to tight solid players like myself.
I tried to chat to the guy on the break but his english was only slightly better than my french.He said he put me on a hand like AJ. :o What can I say. Later I spoke to the TD about the hand and he told me the guy finished 3rd in the IPO 2008 (1300 plyers) so I guess that made me feel slightly better. :-\
I take this experience as a lesson to refocus on my own game, not necessarliy to pull off any crazy stunts like that. :)
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pre-flop
he was playing the player..if u rrai he will fold... i think if u had taken a back step from the situation,cleared your mind and thought through your initial impression of him and looked at the sizing of his bet,you would of seen through it..one for your play book [dont over use it :)]
good post
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good post
yes, definitely one of the best hands we"ve had on this board
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Just read thru this and have one thing to chime in...against an agg player u Def want to raise from the BB in this spot to build a pot against someone capable of putting in chips dry while u r in position!! I think as played the call of his rr is the only questionable thing but certainly not a terrible play bcos he gave u a fair price. As played I think its a fold, but if u have seen this play from him in the SB on multiple occasions then this becomes an insta-ship and u can expect to pick up dead £ a high % of the time. I certainly dnt think u are ahead of his shove-calling range but if he is as agg and "slippery" as u originally thought then u may well be ahead of his limp/re-pop range.