Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Chipaccrual on May 10, 2009, 10:33:04 AM
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£50 Freezeout live tournament.
Blinds 200/400
Average Stack Size = 6.5k
Both Players playing off around 9.5k stack
Player B, UTG raises to 1200.
Player A (UTG +1), holding ad1 kc , raises to 3600.
Folds back round to player B, who ponders, then reraises all-in.
So, it" s back to Player A......................
No real reads on Player B, joined table fifteen minutes previous, chatty, but only limped into one hand.
What does player A do, and what has player B got ?
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antes???
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£50 Freezeout live tournament.
Blinds 200/400
Average Stack Size = 6.5k
Both Players playing off around 9.5k stack
Player B, UTG raises to 1200.
Player A (UTG +1), holding ad1 kc , raises to 3600.
Folds back round to player B, who ponders, then reraises all-in.
So, it" s back to Player A......................
No real reads on Player B, joined table fifteen minutes previous, chatty, but only limped into one hand.
What does player A do, and what has player B got ?
i would fold based on the fact that you have average stack left and it is ONLY ak. In saying this it seems as though its the kind of move decent players like to make UTG to represent huge strength.
i would probably think he has suited connectors...10 j maybe?!
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Not the nicest spot it the world, I think smooth calling p/f is fine if u dnt have enough info about the player to make an educated decision is fine. How many players are at the table?? As played...I think u gta get it in here, gettin ovr 2/1 on your money and I think ur racin" a good portion of the time and best case scenario he went bananas w/aq.
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(http://ownedirl.com/cats/r_u_srs.jpg)
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flat call preflop rather than re-raise.
as played, fold - likelihood of him raising UTG, then shoving to your re-raise, whilst holding something worse than AK? Possible, but unlikely.
AK is only ace high after all. Why risk your tourney with Ace high when still holding an above average stack, and with no reads on player to suggest you might be ahead.
I reckon he had a mid/hi pair - 99 to KK
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flat call preflop rather than re-raise.
as played, fold - likelihood of him raising UTG, then shoving to your re-raise, whilst holding something worse than AK? Possible, but unlikely.
AK is only ace high after all. Why risk your tourney with Ace high when still holding an above average stack, and with no reads on player to suggest you might be ahead.
I reckon he had a mid/hi pair - 99 to KK
If he had a mid/high pair then we r getting the right price to call.
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Did you set out with the intention of turning AK into a bluff, never folding after putting 1/3 of my stack in that would be terrible?
If you are prepared to raise fold here then don"t raise but i see nothing wrong with getting them in here. Also I am assuming this is in Nottingham so it is even more +ev imo.
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flat call preflop rather than re-raise.
as played, fold - likelihood of him raising UTG, then shoving to your re-raise, whilst holding something worse than AK? Possible, but unlikely.
AK is only ace high after all. Why risk your tourney with Ace high when still holding an above average stack, and with no reads on player to suggest you might be ahead.
I reckon he had a mid/hi pair - 99 to KK
If he had a mid/high pair then we r getting the right price to call.
In a cash games, yes clearly. But for our tourney life? I would already be happy to push with AK, and accept being called by QQ.... but not so sure I want to be calling for my life with AK.
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i hardly ever 3bet fold AK - and i don"t here, not with the structure of the £50.
don"t put a third of your stack in to "see where you are" and then fold. If you are going to do this then don"t 3bet in the first place.
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This thread is just one big level right?
Its hand in the air time.
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lol at all those who raise fold!!!
You either flat or three bet/call a shove.
Personally with the £50 structure at DTD deffp 3 bet/call a shove
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I flat with the AK here. With the variables mentioned, especially the size of the bet in relation to the stacks, then you can"t fold AK here.
Which is why I think the re-raise is a mistake (imo).
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flat call preflop rather than re-raise.
as played, fold - likelihood of him raising UTG, then shoving to your re-raise, whilst holding something worse than AK? Possible, but unlikely.
AK is only ace high after all. Why risk your tourney with Ace high when still holding an above average stack, and with no reads on player to suggest you might be ahead.
I reckon he had a mid/hi pair - 99 to KK
If he had a mid/high pair then we r getting the right price to call.
agree with the call the AK pre flop as most folk said especially as you have position and really only premium hands should be re raising here (according to the gap concept)
if i had re raised pre flop then as marty says - considering you put him on medium to high pairs your getting the price to call
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flat call preflop rather than re-raise.
as played, fold - likelihood of him raising UTG, then shoving to your re-raise, whilst holding something worse than AK? Possible, but unlikely.
AK is only ace high after all. Why risk your tourney with Ace high when still holding an above average stack, and with no reads on player to suggest you might be ahead.
I reckon he had a mid/hi pair - 99 to KK
to flat call more than 10% of your stack in this scenario with no reads is not so good either, we have to assume villain will c-bet...
given stack sizes/lack of reads if you re-raise to fold then do it with 72o imo... have a plan... if mr AK feels uncomfortable about calling a rrai to his 3bet then he may as well shove all in pre and take advantage of any FE he may have and try to pick up an additional 20% to his stack...or fold [spew]
with no reads Chipaccrual on villain it is extremely difficult to give him a range - he could be a raving nutter or the tightest nit ever with plenty of styles inbetween... if it is a default range you want here then 88+ AJ+ ..
the one plus here is because we have AK then there is a stronger chance that if villain does have pairs in his range then anything upto QQ rather than AA KK is more likely and if two kings mr AK is still not that badly off given the pot size now...
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£50 Freezeout live tournament.
Blinds 200/400
Average Stack Size = 6.5k
Both Players playing off around 9.5k stack
Player B, UTG raises to 1200.
Player A (UTG +1), holding ad1 kc , raises to 3600.
Folds back round to player B, who ponders, then reraises all-in.
So, it" s back to Player A......................
No real reads on Player B, joined table fifteen minutes previous, chatty, but only limped into one hand.
What does player A do, and what has player B got ?
Okay, so Player A makes the call.
Player A = ad1 kc
Player B = kh ks
An ace drops on the flop and Player A just has Player B covered and Player B exits the tourney.
What"s your thoughts on both players line in this hands ?
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Standard
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lol at all those who raise fold!!!
You either flat or three bet/call a shove.
Personally with the £50 structure at DTD deffp 3 bet/call a shove
I don"t think I advocated raise/fold - I said that as played it was a fold, but that I wouldn"t have 3-bet in the first place against an unknown early position raiser.
As per Noble"s post have a plan when reraising, and if the plan is to call a shove, then surely the better move is to shove yourself and put the decision on the other guy to call for his tourney. Of course in this case with KK, it"s kind of irrelevant, but if he had a lesser pair, say JJ, he may well fold the best hand.
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Problem with open shoving Steve is that unless he is very bad he"s almost never calling off with worse.
3 betting here is to hopefully getting him to shove with the lower end of his range.
Also means that if we want to 3 bet bluff in future we have to risk our entire stack
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lol at all those who raise fold!!!
You either flat or three bet/call a shove.
Personally with the £50 structure at DTD deffp 3 bet/call a shove
I don"t think I advocated raise/fold - I said that as played it was a fold, but that I wouldn"t have 3-bet in the first place against an unknown early position raiser.
As per Noble"s post have a plan when reraising, and if the plan is to call a shove, then surely the better move is to shove yourself and put the decision on the other guy to call for his tourney. Of course in this case with KK, it"s kind of irrelevant, but if he had a lesser pair, say JJ, he may well fold the best hand.
Problem with open shoving Steve is that unless he is very bad he"s almost never calling off with worse.
3 betting here is to hopefully getting him to shove with the lower end of his range.
Also means that if we want to 3 bet bluff in future we have to risk our entire stack
i,m ok with both - shove or 3bet...i think we should mix our strong hand lines with shoves and 3bets , although more weighted towards 3 betting...
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standard - nh gg wp etc
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Problem with open shoving Steve is that unless he is very bad he"s almost never calling off with worse.
3 betting here is to hopefully getting him to shove with the lower end of his range.
Also means that if we want to 3 bet bluff in future we have to risk our entire stack
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this
Shoving just gives him the opportunity to get away from lesser hands. U always want to give ur opponent imaginary fold equity when u have a hand so he can push w/ a wider range and get it in light a good percentage of the time. I think his reshoving range here is prob 99+ and AQ+, but as stated, due to no previous reads then the range could be even wider.
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I would flat pre here (most of the time), but shoving is also good. The reason being you can also do it with ATC (although you might want to reduce the range a little) if it means people are going to fold most of their hands. So the shove is effectively turning AK into a bluff - but against anything other than AA or KK, you"re either a big favourite or small underdog if you are called. So it"s a "safe" bluff.
Remember we have players behind us as well. Prob not advisable w/ atc, or to do this as a bluff. We are literally value raising this spot if we r raising (tho I still agree tht against a blank canvas utg then f/c"n is the better option). Also...I don"t think u r getting value from hands u have in bad shape w/ the shove whereas u r giving them rope w/ the r/r.
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calling is ok if we were deeper imo but when in low 20bb"s area the only reason we have to call is to hope for a rr from behind so that we can get em in..
If no callers we will miss the flop 2/3"s of the time and villain may well c-bet ............. as long as we have a plan for this beforehand to call/bet + be committed if we miss no matter what... then ok"ish
Also...I don"t think u r getting value from hands u have in bad shape w/ the shove whereas u r giving them rope w/ the r/r.
my logic can be a bit srewey sometimes but how do we know that if we miss or hit the flop with top pair that we will get any value without knowing villains style or range?
Our stack size / size of pot imo does not allow for much maneuver so the only way imo to extract anything here is to re-raise and call any shove - if he only flats then no matter the action on the flop we are committed to a showdown or taking the pot down.. or shove pre - which is not only going to get action from better hands that is very dependent on our image and how villains behind perceive it as well as how big there stacks are..the re-raise/shove imo is as you put it more +ev in long term/big picture/future hands...
Being fundamentally sound and playing str8 forward is all well and good but only gets you so far..but every now and again you need to break away from our own and others std school of thought and do the opposite.. much like the theory ""everyone is playing tight so we play loose"" ...
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All very interesting theories guys. Much appreciate you responses.
Just to fill in the missing bit of info.
Player A = The guy that chopped heads up with Neil
Player B = Me
I was a bit miffed about the hand, and most of the table were shocked about him making the call after my all-in. Actually, it was an insta-call.
When the ace hit, he was quite vocal and a bit of fist-pumping was seen. That didn"t help my post tourney mood, but actually he was a decent guy and played well. Had his tourney life on the line twice and got lucky, but you need that to win any of these tournaments ( See Neil"s Jacks hand if you want proof ;D , although he had both players covered)
Great weekend at DTD. Out hand on the Friday was Aces, out hand on the Saturday was Kings. Got to be careful what I wish for in future. ;D
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ul sir pretty much 2 strong hands in a scenario given the stack sizes where all the chips are inevitably going in. slim chance if he knew how tight u were that he would fold especially live if u had any obvious tells like a huge grin or rubbing your hands with glee lol lol
out of interest chip after your ponder did you peek at your cards again before re-raising all in? :)
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out of interest chip after your ponder did you peek at your cards again before re-raising all in? :)
He didn"t. He insta-shoved and was insta-called.
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quote author=Chipaccrual
Folds back round to player B, who ponders, then reraises all-in.