Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: lukybugur on July 07, 2009, 23:39:53 PM
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AJo, it"s one of those hands;
FT of a Double Shootout when I just need to survive to make top 3 for a $215 seat ...
PokerStars Game #30207906220: Tournament #176960751, $10.70+$1.00 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round II, Level IV (50/100) - 2009/07/07 23:19:40 WET [2009/07/07 18:19:40 ET]
Table "176960751 1" 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: DonJ (4300 in chips)
Seat 3: lukybugur (1060 in chips)
Seat 4: mfbjaza (4285 in chips)
Seat 5: fcb.de (965 in chips)
Seat 7: BEGEMOT13 (1915 in chips)
Seat 8: Zeduss (1595 in chips)
Seat 10: TheRealGibby (880 in chips)
TheRealGibby: posts small blind 50
DonJ: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lukybugur [Jd Ac]
lukybugur: raises 200 to 300 [UTG raise loose, I know]
mfbjaza: folds
fcb.de: folds
BEGEMOT13: raises 800 to 1100 [He has been involved in a good few hands, not shown many down]
Zeduss: folds
TheRealGibby: folds
DonJ: folds
lukybugur: With 300 invested, leaving myself just 700 (M of less than 5), CAN / SHOULD I FOLD?
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would you not jam or fold pre? what are your thoughts when you raise 30% of your stack, plan???
as played its meh cos he rarely has worse and you are likely dominated, i probably fold and turn into the shove monkey i should have been in the first place.
what is his range here when he puts a strong looking 3bet in against an utg raiser - has AJ crushed if he is competent
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Wind up?
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shove and just get lucky, your pot commited imo as you cant play 700 in that situation(well i cant as i like to have a lot of chips in front of me), go on get it in there
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This was born from me doing one thing, and Leigh (on the rail) thinking it was a terrible option. One of us thought that with 300 in the pot, I"m pot committed and HAD to shove even tho I was racing at best - and one of us thought that with 700 chips I COULD survive still have chances to double up / make the money.
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Def shove or fold pre!! Im this spot I think ur puttin ur chips in neway!! 2/1 on ur $ so ur gettin the right price against a lot of his range and it is a chance to put urself back in contention. Tough spot tho!
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very difficult situation
pre flop in early position im prone to folding this tbh as if there is a re raise like whats happened it a difficult situ
i think i can fold to be honest if you"ve got a read on the villain - you could either be totally dominated by better A or racing against 1010 or less
the fcat the villan has raised more than half his stack shows he could/should have a very good hand and i"d put him on jacks or queens
me - id fold in the position your in now
preflop i"d have either jammed it all in in the hope to take at least the blinds or fold
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Shove or fold pre for definite
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It played out as;
I had AJo which I raised to 300 UTG. With this raise, to answer the question above, my intention was to get all my chips in on this hand - if I was flat called PF, just jam the flop regardless. It was a risky hand to get involved with as anyone with a hand IS going to call or play back at me with a raise or shove - I knew this - so in my eyes, my only move was to call.
Having Leigh on the rail (on Messenger), we both agreed I was behind (48/52 and racing at best) but he expected me to fold. I paused and hit "Time" as I was wondering if I had missed something and COULD actually fold? I decided "Not" and called. He had KK which held and knocked me out. Leigh felt it was a "terrible play", that I was "a muppet" and that it was the Call for 700 that was the worst move. I agreed with most of you, it was my raise to 300 that was the worst part of the hand. It should have been fold or shove PF (I"d lean more towards the fold option from UTG when 7 handed).
Thanks for your comments.
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can i just qualify my original post by saying i only fold this cos its a satellite and i probably just open fold pre. Any other tourney and i am all in baby
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That"s Leigh's thinking too - it"s a Satellite (an $11 Double Shootout that we"re now both very experienced in playing) and he"s recommending a "survive at all costs" strategy.
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I'm with the shove or fold PF group (almost) ;)
The PF raise was always likely to put you in a terrible spot. With one third of your stack committed you are almost forced to play this out for the rest of your chips.
Would you have raised from this spot with trash to steal the blinds?... if you had and faced a re-raise the fold would have been easier to make but you'd still be kicking yourself for committing a third of your stack to a blind steal.
As you played it I'd get my chips in and start praying :P
Although I would 80% of the time subscribe to the shove or fold PF opinion I would occasionally limp with this hand.
To clarify if I'm limping here it's cause I plan on calling any all in or coming over the top of any raise.. If I've decided that this is the hand I'm willing to push with then there is the opportunity to look weak and have someone re-raise with a wide range or conversely the table may consider the limp a bit trappy and you get to see a flop that (player / reads dependant) to can get away from or jam.
Not sure if that make any sense but I'm just never keen on having two options to a hand. (still that could explain a few things :"( :-[ )
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Argggg why is it any time I post in a hand analysis thread there are alway 4 or more posts inbetween me starting my post and making it.....
I type to slow .... or think to slow.... please don"t guess which ;)
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Think too slow prob. My hindsight thinking on this hand is very similar to yours Derek. I"m not sure if that"s a good thing or not ;)
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Think too slow prob. My hindsight thinking on this hand is very similar to yours Derek. I"m not sure if that"s a good thing or not ;)
Not LOL :D
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folding>>>>>>>>>>>>limping
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I feel I should justify my comments to Neil of "Terrible Play" and "Your a muppet" ;D
We"ve played quite a few of these between us, and discuss strategies for them on a regular basis. A lot of the time we play, the numbers registered means that there are two seats available on the final table and a bit of minor cash.
In this particular game, there were 3 seats available and $18 for 4th place. Neil had already got through an initial table of 7 players to get to this point.
The table started off quite cagey, but then everyone seemed to be in a hurry to make moves, and three players were eliminated fairly quickly. At this point, Neil has hardly played any hands. Lost minimum with Q8 v Q6 on a xxQ6Q board. wp sir.
So, we get to this particular hand. UTG A J.
Blinds are 50/100
Stack sizes are
4300 - BB
4285
1915
1595
1060 - Neil
965
880 - SB
So, the raise to 300 (30% of his stack) with AJ is clearly asking a question. IMO, it"s a shove or fold move really, but in shoving, what do you actually want to happen ?
Someone to call with an under pair and you"re racing ?
And ace rag caller, and you dominate ?
Not likely to happen, my thoughts would be that by shoving, you are only ever going to get called by a hand thats beating you, or you pick up the blinds, which at this level is hardly worth the risk.
I quite like Neil"s play with the raise. He"s got a hand and is testing the water.
The reraise from the other player though should answer the question he has asked.
We very quickly discussed it on Live Messenger.
My comment was, at best you are racing, but more likely you are dominated or have one overcard to a pocket pair.
A fold at this point, still leaves you with 760 chips with blinds at 50/100. Enough opportunities to make another move and double up.
I"m not suggesting that the fold after the reraise is always the correct move, but when you look at the full circumstances, previous play, stack sizes, payout structure, then it is the right move here.
The funny thing is, it was only last week that Neil was quite rightly having a go at me for wanting to get my chips in and racing to much. ;D
The "muppet" comment was a little tongue in cheek, as I was more annoyed for him because I think he could outplay the guys on the table and coudl have got away from that hand in that situation. As he said, after we spoke briefly during the hand, I sat there assuming he was folding it.
My first comment back to him was "What did you do that for ?" ;D
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I feel I should justify my comments to Neil of "Terrible Play" and "Your a muppet" ;D
I think he did that with his play.
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I can"t understand an open raise for a third of your stack if not prepared to follow through with the rest. Either open with a shove, or fold. No point making standard raise - just gives the others at the table a chance to take it away from you.
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You mangled it.
FYP
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You mangled it.
I know. Thank You! My point was to find out if others agreed that the 300 raise was worse than the call. Now that we have established that, I have told-you-so"d and nah,nah,nah-nah,nah"d Leigh. This thread can now be closed :)
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You mangled it.
I know. Thank You! My point was to find out if others agreed that the 300 raise was worse than the call. Now that we have established that, I have told-you-so"d and nah,nah,nah-nah,nah"d Leigh. This thread can now be closed :)
Ahhhhhhhhhh, so there was a point to this thread.
Glad we"ve established that. ;)
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Only just seen this
With only 3 seats available and 7 players left, you will need to win a hand or two here. I"m shoving in this spot. I"m not overly happy about it being UTG but the blinds are about to go through us and AJ is a decent enough hand that can play well against some calling ranges. some players may call off with pairs TT or smaller or even worse Aces. You aren"t that far behind dominating aces or overpairs (unless you run into AA or JJ)
as for the way it played out....I dont think you can raise 30% of your stack and fold and then have the blinds go through you. next thing the blinds are 75/150 and you have 4BBs and are not going to steal much with that..
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I know what I would do with AJ ;D
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Shove and then spend the next 4 years moaning about how you never win with it ... ?
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Shove and then spend the next 4 years moaning about how you never win with it ... ?
yip..
I might try the nosey-p slowplay method though.
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Only just seen this
With only 3 seats available and 7 players left, you will need to win a hand or two here. I"m shoving in this spot. I"m not overly happy about it being UTG but the blinds are about to go through us and AJ is a decent enough hand that can play well against some calling ranges. some players may call off with pairs TT or smaller or even worse Aces. You aren"t that far behind dominating aces or overpairs (unless you run into AA or JJ)
as for the way it played out....I dont think you can raise 30% of your stack and fold and then have the blinds go through you. next thing the blinds are 75/150 and you have 4BBs and are not going to steal much with that..
I feel I should justify my comments to Neil of "Terrible Play" and "Your a muppet" ;D
We"ve played quite a few of these between us, and discuss strategies for them on a regular basis. A lot of the time we play, the numbers registered means that there are two seats available on the final table and a bit of minor cash.
In this particular game, there were 3 seats available and $18 for 4th place. Neil had already got through an initial table of 7 players to get to this point.
The table started off quite cagey, but then everyone seemed to be in a hurry to make moves, and three players were eliminated fairly quickly. At this point, Neil has hardly played any hands. Lost minimum with Q8 v Q6 on a xxQ6Q board. wp sir.
So, we get to this particular hand. UTG A J.
Blinds are 50/100
Stack sizes are
4300 - BB
4285
1915
1595
1060 - Neil
965
880 - SB
So, the raise to 300 (30% of his stack) with AJ is clearly asking a question. IMO, it"s a shove or fold move really, but in shoving, what do you actually want to happen ?
Someone to call with an under pair and you"re racing ?
And ace rag caller, and you dominate ?
Not likely to happen, my thoughts would be that by shoving, you are only ever going to get called by a hand thats beating you, or you pick up the blinds, which at this level is hardly worth the risk.
I quite like Neil"s play with the raise. He"s got a hand and is testing the water.
The reraise from the other player though should answer the question he has asked.
We very quickly discussed it on Live Messenger.
My comment was, at best you are racing, but more likely you are dominated or have one overcard to a pocket pair.
A fold at this point, still leaves you with 760 chips with blinds at 50/100. Enough opportunities to make another move and double up.
I"m not suggesting that the fold after the reraise is always the correct move, but when you look at the full circumstances, previous play, stack sizes, payout structure, then it is the right move here.
The funny thing is, it was only last week that Neil was quite rightly having a go at me for wanting to get my chips in and racing to much. ;D
The "muppet" comment was a little tongue in cheek, as I was more annoyed for him because I think he could outplay the guys on the table and coudl have got away from that hand in that situation. As he said, after we spoke briefly during the hand, I sat there assuming he was folding it.
My first comment back to him was "What did you do that for ?" ;D
good discussion [just been reading back through posts posted since my holiday]
i would just like to add that looking into icm/equity strategy for SAT final table sngs maybe beneficial to you,the equity risked here compared to folding is not worth the gain,Leigh/neil have you got a icm calc? congrats on your results up to now.