Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: AMRN on August 24, 2009, 22:30:24 PM
-
This one has been bugging me today - looking for opinions.
250 seat MTT, $22 buy in. $1350 to 1st, $825 for 2nd, $625 for 3rd, $400 for 4th, $350 for 5th.
Down to last 5 and I have around 75k. Three others have around 80k, and the chip leader has 140k. Blinds are 1200/2400 (no ante).
Chip Leader is a loose gambler, happy to get his whole stack with amazing regularity. UTG opens for 2.5xBB raises often, but folds to re-raises many times.
I have a really good feel for the other 4 players, and have not made any mistakes in the tourney so far - playing well. Stack are plenty deep enough to allow loads of play for quite a while yet - I am shortest stack but have 31xBB!
So, to the hand in question. I am in the BB with JJ. UTG opens for 6000 (2.5xBB)..... I am already planning my re-raise knowing that he folds to 3-bets often....... BUT, the chip leader does his party trick and shoves for 140k.
Chip Leader has knocked out the previous final table players in the past dozen hands, mostly with preflop action. He has shown AK, 99, A9, 77, QQ.
So...... what would you do? Fold the JJ and wait for chance to get chips in first? OR, call knowing your ahead of his range and perhaps giving yourself a tourney winning stack, but risking your tourney with a hand that may be racing or dominated?
-
Snap.
4th best hand - if he has better - that"s just unlucky.
-
I hate to say it, but what he said. ???
-
Chip Leader is a loose gambler, happy to get his whole stack with amazing regularity.
^^^^^
this
UTG opens for 2.5xBB raises often, but folds to re-raises many times.
^^^^
+this
= I think you know.....
easy call for me and you as well, I suspect
-
I hate to say it, but what he said. ???
what they said
-
fold- by virtue of this thread he has one of the best 3 hands in poker
50p pls :D
-
fold- by virtue of this thread he has one of the best 3 hands in poker
50p pls :D
we don"t know if he called yet though!
-
fold- by virtue of this thread he has one of the best 3 hands in poker
50p pls :D
no he didn"t, and no it"s not a bad beat whinge.
I figured I was ahead of most of his range, and of course I snap called. He had AQo and hit an Ace. not bothered about that - I lost a race and have no problem.
My wife was watching and questioned the call..... which got me thinking. If the stacks were a little shallower I wouldn"t have thought twice about it.... but on reflection I couldn"t help thinking that folding there (which would have seen a call from the UTG raiser with 10-10 (apparently) and laddered me another spot) would have left me with 30xBB and loads of time and room to play.
For the record though, calling this every time.
-
30BB isn"t that deep, 5 handed.
If you hadn"t have called here and waited for a "better spot" the CL would have run over the table and your "better spot" would probably have put you back to square one at best
-
30BB isn"t that deep, 5 handed.
If you hadn"t have called here and waited for a "better spot" the CL would have run over the table and your "better spot" would probably have put you back to square one at best
this 1000%
-
fold- by virtue of this thread he has one of the best 3 hands in poker
50p pls :D
no he didn"t, and no it"s not a bad beat whinge.
I figured I was ahead of most of his range, and of course I snap called. He had AQo and hit an Ace. not bothered about that - I lost a race and have no problem.
My wife was watching and questioned the call..... which got me thinking. If the stacks were a little shallower I wouldn"t have thought twice about it.... but on reflection I couldn"t help thinking that folding there (which would have seen a call from the UTG raiser with 10-10 (apparently) and laddered me another spot) would have left me with 30xBB and loads of time and room to play.
For the record though, calling this every time.
Run better imo.
-
???
Thread title = A hand that has been bugging me... opinions?
Your quote = "For the record though, calling this every time."
So why was it bugging you ??????
-
5 handed with JJ - i would need a ninja read to fold
-
???
Thread title = A hand that has been bugging me... opinions?
Your quote = "For the record though, calling this every time."
So why was it bugging you ??????
What was bugging me was.... is the call a leak? Yes I"m always calling here, but is that necessarily the correct play. General feedback suggests it is, but I"m still not convinced that calling your stack off against a raise and a re-raise is always correct given that you are likely to be dominated or racing at best. Still calling though.
-
You would have to feel like you had a HUGE edge on the table to fold here imo.
Snap call for me
-
Steve, I feel you are being un fairly lambasted here! 99% of us are calling here, but your question whether to lay it down a wait to get your chips in first is valid, I have come to the conclusion in the last month or so that it is the hands you lay down, more than the ones you play that determine whether you run deep in these tournaments. In the league game on Sunday I went out with Js when quite handily chipped up, I knew there was every chance my opponent could have hit trips on a very dry flop ( all under cards as well ), but still called. If I had won I would have been top 5, but equally I could have laid "em down and had plenty of time to make the top 5, on my terms.
Like every one else I would have called here, but your questions are valid, and I would be doing the same soul searching. ;)
-
I think there is more to consider than a simple snap call.
If this guy keeps shoving he is clearly not a very confident post flop player and assuming you are, you should really want to be taking that edge against him post flop at a later stage. The whole arguement of getting your chips in first is a very key point as well, you still have a lot of Fold Equity with 31 BB left, there could be better spots later on where you can maybe make a squeeze on Raise-Fold Man.
I think I would have folded in this situation and I"m not a particularly tight player, I just think this situation screamed coin-flip or domination. There are of course so many other factors to consider - I mean, I"m not sure how your image was at the table, were you appearing LAG, TAG etc etc, these factors would of course impact the villian"s decision on whether a shove against your range was a good play and would in turn give more or less credibility to his holdings.
-
5 handed it would be a tough lay down and don"t think I couldve done it and wouldve insta snap called thinking I"m at best in a 50/50 race and thinking I"m gonna take the chip lead
But poker is a game of incomplete info and using simple ABC poker as well as the gap concept it would be a tough tough fold. Laddering up to 4th place only gives you an extra $50. I have managed to lay jacks down pre flop with 2 instances of strength in front of me but doubt I wouldve done it after the bubbles burst
-
OR, call knowing your ahead of his range ...
Good enough reason to ship them in IMO.
-
I think there is more to consider than a simple snap call.
If this guy keeps shoving he is clearly not a very confident post flop player and assuming you are, you should really want to be taking that edge against him post flop at a later stage. The whole arguement of getting your chips in first is a very key point as well, you still have a lot of Fold Equity with 31 BB left, there could be better spots later on where you can maybe make a squeeze on Raise-Fold Man.
I think I would have folded in this situation and I"m not a particularly tight player, I just think this situation screamed coin-flip or domination. There are of course so many other factors to consider - I mean, I"m not sure how your image was at the table, were you appearing LAG, TAG etc etc, these factors would of course impact the villian"s decision on whether a shove against your range was a good play and would in turn give more or less credibility to his holdings.
some points here:
hero"s table image is completely irrelevant as he hasn"t acted in the hand.
we may have some post flop edge but that is taken away by a guy who is playing like a shove-monkey
post flop edge is overrated, especially at this stage and not that deep- probably playing 2 streets max
squeezes aren"t possible vs a guy who doesn"t flat raises preflop
i agree there could be better spots but given description of villain in the OP i think this is a good spot as JJ beats his range and is a great opportunity to get in the big money, especially if you cripple the most aggro guy at the table.
-
Steve, you keep trying to find more and more reasons to fold!!! :D
Your tight enough imo- this is a snap high five hand in the air call. His range at this stage isn"t "racing at best" He probs makes this shove with 77+ KQ, KJ and if he"s loose as you say probably any pair and maybe any suited broadway. Maybe even suited connectors
-
My wife was watching and questioned the call.....
:-X
-
with 31BBLS a rase and a re rase even in 5 handed i would lay it down why risk your hole tourny on a coin flip
-
Steve, you keep trying to find more and more reasons to fold!!! :D
Your tight enough imo- this is a snap high five hand in the air call. His range at this stage isn"t "racing at best" He probs makes this shove with 77+ KQ, KJ and if he"s loose as you say probably any pair and maybe any suited broadway. Maybe even suited connectors
^^^^^^^^^^^^100% THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-
with 31BBLS a rase and a re rase even in 5 handed i would lay it down why risk your hole tourny on a coin flip
this is a bit results orientated.
Remember, the guy is shoving with a lot of hands that JJ dominates. This is too good a spot to pass on
-
i hear wat your saying but persoally i like 2 c the flop a dont like playing coin flips
-
with 31BBLS a rase and a re rase even in 5 handed i would lay it down why risk your hole tourny on a coin flip
You"re not risking your whole tourney.
You"re giving yourself a good chance of winning the thing rather than settling for 3rd or worse.
If you offer me this race with a bit of dead money in the pot already I"ll take it every time.
Are you saying that if he shows AQ face up you would pass?
-
i hear wat your saying but persoally i like 2 c the flop a dont like playing coin flips
no one likes to play coin flips but they are impossible to avoid if you want to win a donkament.
You cant be folding jacks to an allin just because you want to avoid the flip. As I put before, he will do this with pairs TT or worse and possibly AJ or worse as well as the coinflip hands.
-
Most people who don"t flip for it moan when their aces get cracked when they"re down to 1.5 big blinds
-
I think you have answered your own question, as everyone else says (ignoring the fact its jacks) the prior action tells you that the ranges are likely wide enough to give you value. One point which should not be ignored is the modest money jump in 4>5 place, so there is clearly little to be gained by folding and hoping for an elimination.
33bb deep 5 handed is not that deep given that you will have to widen your range to keep active enough to not be blinded away by frequently moving blinds. The reality is JJ plays more like an even bigger pair this short and this late in a MTT.
Worrying about it being a coin toss is missing the point, because there are many combinations of hands between UTG and BTN that clash (AK/AQ/AJ/KQ/QJ/KJ) that gives your hand even better value. That aside, even being a 54% favourite here headsup shouldnt bear any fear for you. The chances of you engineering spots where there is more of an advantage (without having to pay off to see a flop) are unlikely in what will prove a fairly action heavy situation.
-
i hear wat your saying but persoally i like 2 c the flop a dont like playing coin flips
no one likes to play coin flips but they are impossible to avoid if you want to win a donkament.
You cant be folding jacks to an allin just because you want to avoid the flip. As I put before, he will do this with pairs TT or worse and possibly AJ or worse as well as the coinflip hands.
Erm.......
I do.
-
NEVER call a all in online unless you have 5/2
-
Reading all this makes me think I made a massive mistake at the APAT last week.
I"m in the BB with JJ and about 30k. Blinds are 400/800 with a 50 ante. It"s folded to the button who pushes for 8k. He has played about 4 hands in 6 hours! The SB is a bit loose, has about 25k and gives it some chat before calling. I decide before the SB calls that I will call in the SB folds but fold if he calls (very odd looking back now). He calls and I fold face up, and the SB can"t believe it. My view was that I"d be up against at least 2 over cards, maybe three, and/or an overpair, so I didn"t want to risk a third of my stack. I probably should have gone all-in and isolated the button.
Anyway, the button had 44 and the SB had AT. First card on the flop was an ace (phew, lucky escape!) and the 2nd was a jack (f*ck). I not overly bothered about the fold, but it does niggle. I probably did the wrong thing.
Views?
-
my view is that is a terrible fold - sorry
put yourself in their position and assess their ranges
-
Reading all this makes me think I made a massive mistake at the APAT last week.
I"m in the BB with JJ and about 30k. Blinds are 400/800 with a 50 ante. It"s folded to the button who pushes for 8k. He has played about 4 hands in 6 hours! The SB is a bit loose, has about 25k and gives it some chat before calling. I decide before the SB calls that I will call in the SB folds but fold if he calls (very odd looking back now). He calls and I fold face up, and the SB can"t believe it. My view was that I"d be up against at least 2 over cards, maybe three, and/or an overpair, so I didn"t want to risk a third of my stack. I probably should have gone all-in and isolated the button.
Anyway, the button had 44 and the SB had AT. First card on the flop was an ace (phew, lucky escape!) and the 2nd was a jack (f*ck). I not overly bothered about the fold, but it does niggle. I probably did the wrong thing.
Views?
This is a situation where even if both players are beating you, your money should be in the pot
-
...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up. It just compounds the error.
-
...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up. It just compounds the error.
Yes, if you"re going to make a mistake - don"t let anyone know about it at the time :D
The SB didn"t reraise to try and get heads up with the all in - so AK, AQ, QQ, KK and aces are probably less likely I would have thought.
He might still have flatted with them - but I would have thought the odds were you were against 2 underpairs, or a hand like he had.
-
my view is that is a terrible fold - sorry
put yourself in their position and assess their ranges
...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up. It just compounds the error.
Yes, if you"re going to make a mistake - don"t let anyone know about it at the time :D
The SB didn"t reraise to try and get heads up with the all in - so AK, AQ, QQ, KK and aces are probably less likely I would have thought.
He might still have flatted with them - but I would have thought the odds were you were against 2 underpairs, or a hand like he had.
Wow you"d think he folded AA here from those responses. Dont think you can call this a terrible play at all. Its not what i personally would have done but I can see some merits for folding if you can win chips easily from position rather than potentially giving away half your stack when the SB flats with a monster.
-
my view is that is a terrible fold - sorry
put yourself in their position and assess their ranges
...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up. It just compounds the error.
Yes, if you"re going to make a mistake - don"t let anyone know about it at the time :D
The SB didn"t reraise to try and get heads up with the all in - so AK, AQ, QQ, KK and aces are probably less likely I would have thought.
He might still have flatted with them - but I would have thought the odds were you were against 2 underpairs, or a hand like he had.
Wow you"d think he folded AA here from those responses. Dont think you can call this a terrible play at all. Its not what i personally would have done but I can see some merits for folding if you can win chips easily from position rather than potentially giving away half your stack when the SB flats with a monster.
Still, don"t show your lay-down.
-
Still, don"t show your lay-down.
Agreed
-
I think you have all confirmed what I already knew - poor fold. Still, I lost no chips and still went on to the 2nd day where my AQ ran into KK. Mathematically I should have called, but putting a third of your chips in when you are probably less than 50% is a bit of a gamble when there"s lots of play in the tournament.
Thanks everyone!
-
joker, you need to understand a few things such as "utility". if you fold and still make day 2, so what, your aim is to make the final table, and to do this you need to take risks to get chips. if you are not willing to gamble, then tourneys are not for you.
This is a situation, when if the opponent has a bigger pair, then so be it, and they would of isolated the other guy anyway, so your jacks are good.
-
My wife was watching and questioned the call.....
This confirms its a call
-
Of the 3 options fold, call or reraise (all-in), the worst is CALL.
I"d be 50/50 on the other 2 options depending on my best read of the other players, especially the sb. An all-in may make him fold (almost defo in THIS situation) and you don"t mind a race against 1 player! ;)
-
I think you"re right. The other players on the table reckoned they would have gone all-in, and the SB said he would have folded. Ironically, the worst play, just calling, would have won the most chips because the flop had an ace as well as the jack, and so all the chiips would have gone in.
-
The only way I can fold here is if I believe SB to be of the level where he knew the value of isolation. If this is the case his flat call rather than all in could be viewed as inducing us (the bb) to shove in; as TT is a standard isolation, as is AK, he would have to have QQ, KK or AA to smooth in which case JJ is a standard fold.
As I assume the SB is not at this level, it"s a snap shove for me. The button can be the biggest nit in the world but I"m not folding Jacks to an open ship for 10bb three handed.
Still, I understand your reasoning for the fold so it can"t be criticised, just saying how I would view the situation. Best of luck in the future.
-
Really good post bagface.
i know joker and he is quite a new player and advice like this is really helpful.
APAT ftw