Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: TopPair2Pair on September 03, 2009, 00:23:08 AM
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Blinds are 50/100, I have AKo and raise to 350 late position, everyone folds but BB. I have about 4.7K he has just over 5K. His clearly new to playing poker in a live environment, dealing errors, chip handling errors, constantly looking at ppl like wtf do i do now when dealing. Not a complete fish though, must"ve played quite a bit online.
Anyway flop comes.... JT8 2tone and he donks 400...
...........?
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I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.
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I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.
so your folding?
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I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.
so your folding?
There may be occasions, against a tricky player, that I would decide not to fold for a particular reason. For example, we may suspect that he is leading in the expectation that we have missed the flop. Against a straightforward new player, however, we"ve got to assume that he is almost certainly ahead or, at a minimum, his draws are better than ours and our hand is better folded sooner rather than later.
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With decent stacks i"ve recently started what hellmuth advocates.
You could try raisng to see where you are. essentially it is a bluff but also gives you good informtion. if he has a small under pair to the board then he could fold. If he calls or raises your beat and time to get out. But this only really works in the right situation.
Personly I think your behind to either 2 pair or AJ or similar but if you min raised to 800 or 1000 you might win the hand outright. It it doesn"t you still have 40BB
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Raise less pre imo, make it 250/275. Flop is 100% player dependant. Don"t think Im raising here as he can 3-bet ship w/ a lot of hands inc dry 9"s and KQ. One major factor w/ Holdem atm is ppl play the flop pretty well at times, but seem to b lost on the turn. I prob flat his flop bet. If he checks the turn then we bet ~900ish.
If he seems like a player that cannot give up 1pair type hands then we fold flop. If we have seen him fire multiple bullets, then we fold.
If it was me, Id just spike the Q on the turn wen he bet flop w/ 9x, but most ppl dnt run tht good :)
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So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.
By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.
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as you say he is new to live poker by your read on him...so i feel a re-raise of say 1200-1600 more would get you in more trouble, as he"d prob call if he has 10 or jack, as he"d prob only be looking at his own cards.
So fold, however its tricky, as you could call, which may slow him down on the turn. and you may hit your a or k, and slow play it on the turn and river.
not much help actually!
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So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.
By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.
More or less this I think.
I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.
Although I did do that online yesterday with 77 on a QQ52 board
I"m pretty sure the table were really impressed with my play when the average stack I"d set all in turned over Q2 ::)
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It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc. which he"s obv going to call / 4 bet / shove all day long.
I think your PFR amount is fine - when folk say "I"d raise less" I can"t see them making it any less than 300 as it almost prices the BB to call with any two cards.
I wouldn"t re-raise as I don"t have a made hand on flop, I would float him and see what card comes / how he acts on the Turn. The ONLY way to play it IMO.
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It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc. which he"s obv going to call / 4 bet / shove all day long.
I think your PFR amount is fine - when folk say "I"d raise less" I can"t see them making it any less than 300 as it almost prices the BB to call with any two cards.
I wouldn"t re-raise as I don"t have a made hand on flop, I would float him and see what card comes / how he acts on the Turn. The ONLY way to play it IMO.
I def raise less here and am happy if the BB is gng to call w/ atc. It means I get to play a swollen pot in position w/ the best hand and deep stacks. I very rarely make it 3x in tournaments when I am in position as I think the same goal can be achieved for less. When we r raising w/ AK at the 50/100 level, we r not just hoping to pick up the blinds most of the time.
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Raise less pre, and flat the flop bet as Neil said.
Then when he leads out on the turn, fold.
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Cheers guys, point noted about raising less. I like teh varying opinions, (Standard APAT class!) I had a couple strong regs inbetween myself and caller that i"d never played with before, does this change anyone"s opinion on pre raise amount?
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Cheers guys, point noted about raising less. I like teh varying opinions, (Standard APAT class!) I had a couple strong regs inbetween myself and caller that i"d never played with before, does this change anyone"s opinion on pre raise amount?
strong regs how? do they 3 bet a lot? What was ur image at the time of this hand? Where about in late position are u?
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raise whatever your standard amount is but i think at 50/100 then 300 is fine.
as played i think i float and see what he does, many lolbad live players get their bet sizing wrong so he could make a mistake on the turn, potentially all 3 broadway cards for you are outs.
he"s probably betting "to see where he is" with middle pair or something so a call should slow him down, but i think raising as a bluff with your hand here is the worst possible option.
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I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.
This.
All this talk of floating him on the flop...other than a K and you still won"t know where you are.
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If he checks the turn for example I"d say you have a much better idea where you are.
(plus other variations which make floating a viable option)
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so have can"t have A9, KQ or any other draw then? not sure on suits on board or in our hole cards etc
it is player dependant but our hand does have equity here, just because we miss we don"t have to fold, especially with position.
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I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.
This.
All this talk of floating him on the flop...other than a K and you still won"t know where you are.
The floating isn"t necessarily to hit. If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead. That"s the beauty of position.
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Flop is JT8...he"s led out on that flop and you have floated.
OK...let"s suppose the turn isn"t a Queen King.
Aren"t AKJT987 all scare cards for you?
Let"s suppose one of those falls and doesn"t make the flush.
He checks. Are you betting, if so how much and what are you hoping to represent?
Alternatively, if it"s a total brick (6 - 2) and he checks..same questions.
Finally, if it puts three to a flush out there, does this change your answers to the above?
Interesting discussion, I"ll be keen to see where it goes.
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it depends but we have position and what may be scare cards for us may also be scare cards for him, we will be able to narrow his holdings by his reaction/action on the turn.
also if he is on a draw our ace high may still have showdown value unimproved
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we have ac ks
Baord was jh tc 8h
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Raise the flop/fold to jam. I prefer to this a float this shallow.
He"ll most likely fold. People are donk live never have it
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PokerStars Game #32545889108: Tournament #200909010, $10000+$300 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIV (3500/7000) - 2009/09/07 9:21:55 WET [2009/09/07 4:21:55 ET]
Table "200909010 18" 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Sowerss (423750 in chips)
Seat 3: Belabacsi (202948 in chips)
Seat 4: Sumpas (749329 in chips)
Seat 5: KevBoyStar (368435 in chips)
Seat 7: Festivuss (139613 in chips)
Seat 8: BeL0WaB0Ve (867425 in chips)
Seat 9: SCTrojans (238500 in chips)
Sowerss: posts the ante 875
Belabacsi: posts the ante 875
Sumpas: posts the ante 875
KevBoyStar: posts the ante 875
Festivuss: posts the ante 875
BeL0WaB0Ve: posts the ante 875
SCTrojans: posts the ante 875
Sumpas: posts small blind 3500
KevBoyStar: posts big blind 7000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Festivuss: folds
BeL0WaB0Ve: raises 9150 to 16150
SCTrojans: folds
Sowerss: folds
Belabacsi: calls 16150
Sumpas: folds
KevBoyStar: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc 8h Td]
BeL0WaB0Ve: checks
Belabacsi: bets 26750
BeL0WaB0Ve: raises 823650 to 850400 and is all-in
Belabacsi: calls 159173 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (664477) returned to BeL0WaB0Ve
*** TURN *** [Jc 8h Td] [6d]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 8h Td 6d] [Qh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BeL0WaB0Ve: shows [Js Kh] (a pair of Jacks)
Belabacsi: shows [Kd Qd] (a pair of Queens)
BeL0WaB0Ve said, "nh"
Belabacsi collected 420771 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 420771 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 8h Td 6d Qh]
Seat 1: Sowerss folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: Belabacsi (button) showed [Kd Qd] and won (420771) with a pair of Queens
Seat 4: Sumpas (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: KevBoyStar (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Festivuss folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: BeL0WaB0Ve showed [Js Kh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 9: SCTrojans folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
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Raise the flop/fold to jam. I prefer to this a float this shallow.
He"ll most likely fold. People are donk live never have it
I hate raise/flop folding as he is likely to 3/bet shove all draws (where he may take a free card on the turn). He also shuts down w/ weak hands like underpairs where he bets flop to see where he is - in this case we win the hand when he checks the turn and we fire ~900+ to keep pressure on.
Flop is JT8...he"s led out on that flop and you have floated.
OK...let"s suppose the turn isn"t a Queen King.
Aren"t AKJT987 all scare cards for you?
Let"s suppose one of those falls and doesn"t make the flush.
He checks. Are you betting, if so how much and what are you hoping to represent?
Alternatively, if it"s a total brick (6 - 2) and he checks..same questions.
Finally, if it puts three to a flush out there, does this change your answers to the above?
Interesting discussion, I"ll be keen to see where it goes.
Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it. Scare cards for us r also scare cards for our opponent. Obv if they call our turn bet, we have to shut down, but Id rather call flop/bet turn (where we can get him to fold a higher range when scare cards come (plus he prob doesnt re-shove draws on turn)) than re-pop on the flop where his 3-bet shoving range is considerably higher.
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i"ll make a brief ish reply on how i"d play it and why based on the info you have given.
1. FLOP - call - i do not want to be seen/tagged as being weak tight and have the problem of more donk bets in the future. [has he seen you raise and fold to donk bets previously tp2p ?]
2. TURN - fold - if he fires again and no magical Queen arrives,if he checks then this is where i play it differently as to how others have suggested so far.If he checks then i will check also - why? - because if he does have a strong hand then he may be looking to check raise [us floating him may of occurred to him,incidentally if i were him i"d also have a check raise bluff in my repetoire of tricks as well ;D] So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.
By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.
More or less this I think.
I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.
It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc.
The floating isn"t necessarily to hit. If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead. That"s the beauty of position.
Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it.
I will check the turn still with the point of floating [a delayed float] and i"d bet out if he checks the river but the sizing will have to be pot ish or maybe a slight over bet of the pot [just in case he thinks middle pair or TPWK is worth check calling] Also i met consider calling a reasonable bet on the river from him if he makes it [bluff catch a missed draw etc]
All player dependent/reads/how good they are etc but i hope at least this may of given you a few more ideas to think about. [The turn/4th street imo is the hardest to play/learn,most players pick up quickly how to play pre-flop and the flop ok and the river has few decisions to make, which leaves us with good ole 4th street,the one part where a lot of us c#ck up ;D]
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i"ll make a brief ish reply on how i"d play it and why based on the info you have given.
1. FLOP - call - i do not want to be seen/tagged as being weak tight and have the problem of more donk bets in the future. [has he seen you raise and fold to donk bets previously tp2p ?]
2. TURN - fold - if he fires again and no magical Queen arrives,if he checks then this is where i play it differently as to how others have suggested so far.If he checks then i will check also - why? - because if he does have a strong hand then he may be looking to check raise [us floating him may of occurred to him,incidentally if i were him i"d also have a check raise bluff in my repetoire of tricks as well ;D] So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.
By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.
More or less this I think.
I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.
It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc.
The floating isn"t necessarily to hit. If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead. That"s the beauty of position.
Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it.
I will check the turn still with the point of floating [a delayed float] and i"d bet out if he checks the river but the sizing will have to be pot ish or maybe a slight over bet of the pot [just in case he thinks middle pair or TPWK is worth check calling] Also i met consider calling a reasonable bet on the river from him if he makes it [bluff catch a missed draw etc]
All player dependent/reads/how good they are etc but i hope at least this may of given you a few more ideas to think about. [The turn/4th street imo is the hardest to play/learn,most players pick up quickly how to play pre-flop and the flop ok and the river has few decisions to make, which leaves us with good ole 4th street,the one part where a lot of us c#ck up ;D]
noble, you don"t do brief replies. ;D
Great stuff.
Haven"t seen you on here much lately, hope all is good with you.
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i"ll make a brief ish reply on how i"d play it and why based on the info you have given.
1. FLOP - call - i do not want to be seen/tagged as being weak tight and have the problem of more donk bets in the future. [has he seen you raise and fold to donk bets previously tp2p ?]
2. TURN - fold - if he fires again and no magical Queen arrives,if he checks then this is where i play it differently as to how others have suggested so far.If he checks then i will check also - why? - because if he does have a strong hand then he may be looking to check raise [us floating him may of occurred to him,incidentally if i were him i"d also have a check raise bluff in my repetoire of tricks as well ;D] So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.
By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.
More or less this I think.
I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.
It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc.
The floating isn"t necessarily to hit. If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead. That"s the beauty of position.
Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it.
I will check the turn still with the point of floating [a delayed float] and i"d bet out if he checks the river but the sizing will have to be pot ish or maybe a slight over bet of the pot [just in case he thinks middle pair or TPWK is worth check calling] Also i met consider calling a reasonable bet on the river from him if he makes it [bluff catch a missed draw etc]
All player dependent/reads/how good they are etc but i hope at least this may of given you a few more ideas to think about. [The turn/4th street imo is the hardest to play/learn,most players pick up quickly how to play pre-flop and the flop ok and the river has few decisions to make, which leaves us with good ole 4th street,the one part where a lot of us c#ck up ;D]
I dnt think we can check the turn and bet pot on river if we have an ag image. I think if it goes check/check on the turn then we have to check river behind and hope for sum AK showdown value, but think it looks pretty weak if we check turn in position and then fire pot on river. I think by betting the turn we get to re-assess how comfortable he is with the situation and get an extra feel as to whether or not a river bet will work. Im not a huge fan of checking back in position tho so it totally depends on the table image of op I guess.
Also, if opponent is a player capable of check shoving draws on the turn then I do think it is right to check behind! I think that villain hero calls the river w/ Q10 where he may find it hard to call 2 shells. If u have a tight trappy image tho then I do think ur way works v well. Wud b interesting to hear how table perceived op?? Any history w/ villain??
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Great to have you back Noble.....you have been missed :)
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2 checks are key marty,if he were thinking to check raise the turn the majority of players now lead the river..
Have a browse though 2+2 pocket5"s and see how many will lead out/donk bet a strong hand on the flop with this type of texture and then check turn+river..My point being that to check twice his range is heavily weighted to drawing hands as is checking the turn and then leading the river as now his range will consist of monsters/weak hands which are putting out a blocker bet or a missed draw bluff..
Also dont discount which cards come on 4th 5th street , does the turn pair the board or the 3rd suit arrives etc etc
when using a delayed float we use our judgement.IMO todays better informed player is well aware of float plays and the type of good flop texture to do it with and they adjust to it/you especially if we were online and they had all your stats up on HUD..Also the higher the buy in/skill level of your opponents also has a bearing as well of course..
tyty all is good :) just been busy work wise and reading/discussing endless poker situations and trying to hone up my cash game..
btw the toffees RULE ;D
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in a standard £33 casino comp i can"t see someone c/r the turn, thinking you have floated them on the flop. More likely they c/f the turn and show you top pair as they muck.
very good analysis but all of this is player dependant. Against alot of players in these types of live comp, calling and seeing what he does next is the safe play (apart from folding obv) and you should be able to tell on the turn whether he likes his hand or not.
just depends whether you feel he can be easily taken advantage of
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this situation has been bugging me a tad we have no read on villain and yet there seems to me quite a few advocating that to float here as being a straight forward play here?
Everyone has there style i guess but just in case there are any new ish apat members who are poker newbies reading this thread then i"ll try to write down my thought process for this situation.. [forgive if it seems muddled but imo choosing when to float is a bit more complex than call and bet turn if villain checks]
the flop is 2 tone JT8 for arguments sake lets say jack hearts,ten spades,8 hearts , we all hear the term wet or dry flop and it doesnt just mean how co-ordinated the flop is but also how does the first 3 community cards dealt fit with our villains range..Also a flop is wet if the number of potential scare cards is high that can come on 4th 5th street...
Back to the flop of - jack hearts,ten spades,8 hearts , we hold Ace club,King diamond and villain donk bets 400 into a pot of 750... in a lot of forums we all see replies like call flop, re-evaluate turn that are usually part of the more interesting hands we discuss when hero has 2 high unpaired cards that miss the flop 70% of the time and yet we know our opponent is just as likely to of missed as well ;D
So on our flop of jack hearts,ten spades,8 hearts what goes through my mind with only 1 caller?
1.The lower the stakes, the worse the players are and thus widens the range unknowns will call raises with,in general i find it a lot easier to assign ranges against better players.
2.Choosing when to float i tend to want to have a read on villains style of play,is he a LAG/Maniac,TAG,loose passive or weak tight player , this is the sort of read/feel i need to start choosing when to float.
3.I"ll also consider the size of the bet compared to the pot and villains stack size,say for instance that villain is loose passive,then a 400 bet into a pot of 750 by a passive player who doesn"t usually like putting in a lot of money as the aggressor would be a tricky spot would it not? What if villain is a LAG who will have no problem firing out 2 barrels out of position even though we flat him on the flop.. Having an idea of the villains style is essential and how they play there range of hands to be able to float successfully and not end up in pickle the majority of times that we try it.When we call a flop bet, we hope for a safe turn card, after which villains actions should help us to narrow their range,but can you see why i like to have a read on villains style , a check on the turn by any of the above characters i described depending on what card comes can be any number of meanings.If we blindly float then at best we are hoping villain is weak tight or weak loose,that they do not have any semblance of hand reading skills and praying that our turn bet will knock them off there hand.
Back to the flop of - jack hearts,ten spades,8 hearts [ jh ts 8h]we hold ac kd lets start thinking about apart from bluffs what villain could be donk betting with - KQo+s KJo JQo TJo A9hh A9o 99 AJo AQhh 88 TT are just a few possibles so in terms of turn cards what do we want not to see on the turn? Any heart completes a flush - 11 cards , Any 9 makes the board run four to the straight and gives 99 a set + OESD (3 more cards) , Any ace completes yet another OESD for KQ (+2 plus ace heart) , Assuming the flop connected with our opponent, any non-club ace/king is trouble as it could easily give him two pair (+2 cards) , Any Queen or 7 completes an OESD (+6)
thats 24 cards out of 47 unseen that may improve villain on the turn,we are only hoping for 3 Queens,so 21 scare cards and not even taking into account any Jack Ten or Eight either that may come,we have no read on villain..What would be the best play now?
I hope this causes some discussion or at least gets you thinking on what type of textured flops and opponent styles/hand ranges they play and how they play them and what are prime float opportunity"s and which are not..
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am currently too tired to reply with any context to ur post noble but you make a very valid argument for checking bhind on turn.
I actually folded and showed in this spot, not for anywhere nr the same level of thinking but purely bcos i didn"t believe an A or a K was gd and i didnt want to call flop/fold river or call flop/call a double barrel donk on turn from villain(spewing 1k). he showed back... will tell if ne1 wants to know...