Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: noble1 on September 27, 2009, 14:01:55 PM
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donk betting is a interesting line of play imo,when someone 3bets preflop which indicates that it maybe a high Pair or AK type hand most of the time lol then donk betting the flop over inflates the pot making a turn steal very expensive [this helps against certain player types or situations/board textures].Typically, donk betting looks a bit weaker than check-raising, so it"s better than c/r if you think villain"s range has a lot of medium hand strength hands that he would be inclined to pot-control.i tend to want to donk bet the top of my range for value and the bottom of my range as bluffs provided i can assume that i will have some fold equity on 4th or 5th street.
Not a play for low stakes but for medium stakes and above against a good player especially not a bad line to take is it??
anyone want to discuss donk betting?
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Out of a willingness to learn, I"d like to talk about this.
I donk bet / would donk bet;
with AK / AQ on a raggedy-ass non-paint board
to put pressure on short stackers who"s range falls into the "I too have two overcards but shouldn"t / can"t really afford to float / call" (pretty much same as above)
on scary boards eg. when two flopped cards are suited and I think I can represent a willingness to race with a flush draw, or, on 678 / 789 / 89T boards when T9 / JT / JQ are entirely within my "calling a 3-bet" range
in multi-way pots when I have a hand like A6 and a JJ6 board or better still, with any pocket pair on a JJJ board. Betting out with three players to act behinds can easily look like a "I"m betting out "cos I hope to reel one of you three in". Chances I have a Jack / case J are slim in each case and only a J and overpairs can call. Take the chance IMO, moreso when deeper-stacked.
with a medium flush draw (eg. with 57h on a 9hTh2c board)
Overall, me thinx I have too many situations where I would consider "donking" chips. Come join me on BlueSq and take my chips. :)
i tend to want to donk bet the top of my range for value and the bottom of my range as bluffs provided i can assume that i will have some fold equity on 4th or 5th street.
Agree. More troublesome if you"re playing a tight, cautious, min-raising opponent - less fold equity obv? I"d think it"d be easier to do and you"ll have more room for varying your bet-sizes against a weak/scared or overbetting/shovemonkey opponent.
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I donk bet / would donk bet;
with AK / AQ on a raggedy-ass non-paint board
Given a 3 bet pf scenario I think you would lose more than you win with this move. Do you really want to do this with AQ given you will be facing a big raise or push very often? No paint can easily mean high pair or AK. Stack and player dependent of course but of the other donk bet situations you describe this seems to me to be the least favourable.
I suppose a key question is how often does it work for you? What do you do when you get flat called?
Interesting topic - keen to see how it develops.
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Donk to induce
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interesting thread [please look at all replies]
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=44396.0
image a key factor?
someone 3bets preflop which indicates that it maybe a high Pair or AK type hand most of the time lol then donk betting the flop over inflates the pot making a turn steal very expensive [this helps against certain player types or situations/board textures].
in the above scenario i have raised and called a 3bet from behind,if i had called a small pp and hit my set on a low uncoordinated flop against a good player is it good to balance the way i would play it,rather than take the more std approach of c/c lead turn or c/r flop say?
edit - [been thinking about lukys post]
Out of a willingness to learn, I"d like to talk about this.
I donk bet / would donk bet;
with AK / AQ on a raggedy-ass non-paint board
to put pressure on short stackers who"s range falls into the "I too have two overcards but shouldn"t / can"t really afford to float / call" (pretty much same as above)
luky is this when you call a raise from in the blinds or limp in ep and call a raise? Are there any specific things/tendencies you have seen the player do that make you think you"ll get a fold?
on scary boards eg. when two flopped cards are suited and I think I can represent a willingness to race with a flush draw, or, on 678 / 789 / 89T boards when T9 / JT / JQ are entirely within my "calling a 3-bet" range
in multi-way pots when I have a hand like A6 and a JJ6 board or better still, with any pocket pair on a JJJ board. Betting out with three players to act behinds can easily look like a "I"m betting out "cos I hope to reel one of you three in". Chances I have a Jack / case J are slim in each case and only a J and overpairs can call. Take the chance IMO, moreso when deeper-stacked.
I"m not a fan of this one in a multi-way raised pot,i"m more inclined to c/r bluff if say i"m in the sb [4way pot]and utg cbets [if he has a high tendency to cbet most flops] 2 other callers fold then back to me i c/r flop or call flop lead/donk bet the turn [reverse float i guess]..The texture of the flop is important and how i think villain perceives it...
with a medium flush draw (eg. with 57h on a 9hTh2c board)
Overall, me thinx I have too many situations where I would consider "donking" chips. Come join me on BlueSq and take my chips. :)
lol but it is fun experimenting :) so long as we learn why they dont work from the unsuccessful attempts..
i tend to want to donk bet the top of my range for value and the bottom of my range as bluffs provided i can assume that i will have some fold equity on 4th or 5th street.
Agree. More troublesome if you"re playing a tight, cautious, min-raising opponent - less fold equity obv? I"d think it"d be easier to do and you"ll have more room for varying your bet-sizes against a weak/scared or overbetting/shovemonkey opponent.
the only thing i"d add here is if my read is that opponent is tight [but a pot control type] and we are fairly deep stacked and my own image is ok then 3betting the flop is not out of the question!!
also like mal666 suggests donk bet our monsters to induce our opponent to rr/over play a big over pair for example but do you balance your range mal?
A question i"d like to ask is does anyone donk bet say top pair to thin a field in a multi-way pot or is this bad?
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PokerStars Game #33386367065: Tournament #199550281, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2009/09/28 17:26:40 WET [2009/09/28 12:26:40 ET]
Table "199550281 251" 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Rekop311 (12295 in chips)
Seat 2: lukybugur (53706 in chips)
Seat 3: luisGpoker (41885 in chips)
Seat 4: Echtwelstoer (23245 in chips)
Seat 5: Ntamosauskas (25624 in chips)
Seat 6: maine brice (16329 in chips)
Seat 7: Mecca-jay (34038 in chips)
Seat 8: maxm0n (49042 in chips)
Seat 9: ZzenT (24829 in chips)
Rekop311: posts the ante 125
lukybugur: posts the ante 125
luisGpoker: posts the ante 125
Echtwelstoer: posts the ante 125
Ntamosauskas: posts the ante 125
maine brice: posts the ante 125
Mecca-jay: posts the ante 125
maxm0n: posts the ante 125
ZzenT: posts the ante 125
Rekop311: posts small blind 600
lukybugur: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lukybugur [Qd 4d]
luisGpoker: folds
Echtwelstoer: folds
Ntamosauskas: folds
maine brice: folds
Mecca-jay: folds
maxm0n: raises 2400 to 3600
ZzenT: folds
Rekop311: folds
lukybugur: calls 2400
*** FLOP *** [Kd Ad 6s]
lukybugur: DONK BETS 4800
maxm0n: folds
Uncalled bet (4800) returned to lukybugur
lukybugur collected 8925 from pot
lukybugur: doesn"t show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8925 | Rake 0
Board [Kd Ad 6s]
Seat 1: Rekop311 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: lukybugur (big blind) collected (8925)
Seat 3: luisGpoker folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 4: Echtwelstoer folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 5: Ntamosauskas folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 6: maine brice folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 7: Mecca-jay folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: maxm0n folded on the Flop
Seat 9: ZzenT (button) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
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i cried myself silly luky :) +ev 4800 to win 8925, plenty of chips to do it with,you chose the right stack to tangle with imo i hope u bled this weak nit dry :) good use of fold equity...
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Not sure this is the greatest from me
NL Texas Hold'em $22 USD Buy-in Trny: 47835179 Level: 3 Blinds(50/100) - Tuesday, October 06, 07:57:30 BST 2009
Table Regular (1764452) Table #2 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 9: Achiles12 ( 6,500 )
Seat 5: Nathan19854 ( 3,780 )
Seat 4: Seabiscuit92 ( 3,320 )
Seat 3: Swinebag22 ( 4,320 )
Seat 7: Ukong ( 3,010 )
Seat 6: calvinius2 ( 7,870 )
Seat 10: kasperand ( 2,745 )
Seat 1: macdub420 ( 11,315 )
Seat 2: michele313 ( 920 )
Seat 8: phoenix133 ( 5,195 )
Trny: 47835179 Level: 3
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Swinebag22 [ 6h 9c ]
Seabiscuit92 folds
Nathan19854 folds
calvinius2 folds
Ukong folds
phoenix133 folds
Achiles12 raises [200]
kasperand folds
macdub420 folds
michele313 folds
Swinebag22 calls [100] thought about reraising the min raise
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 5s, 8d ]
Swinebag22 donk bets [300] with his gutshot
Achiles12 folds
Swinebag22 does not show cards.
Swinebag22 wins 750 chips
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This is the donk betting we dream of. It rarely is a monster at this level
Table Regular (1764452) Table #2 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 9: Achiles12 ( 4,660 )
Seat 5: Nathan19854 ( 5,380 )
Seat 10: RULER78 ( 11,756 )
Seat 3: Swinebag22 ( 8,140 )
Seat 7: Ukong ( 8,755 )
Seat 1: balu4altijd ( 4,140 )
Seat 6: calvinius2 ( 7,270 )
Seat 2: michele313 ( 120 )
Seat 4: petester188 ( 3,590 )
Seat 8: phoenix133 ( 11,480 )
Trny: 47835179 Level: 4
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Swinebag22 [ 3d 3c ]
There will be a break in 1 minute(s)
calvinius2 folds
Ukong folds
phoenix133 folds
Achiles12 folds
RULER78 folds
balu4altijd folds
michele313 folds
Swinebag22 raises [500]
petester188 folds
Nathan19854 calls [300]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Jc, 8s ]
Nathan19854 donk bets [200] LOL!!
Swinebag22 raises [800]
Nathan19854 folds
Swinebag22 does not show cards.
Swinebag22 wins 2,100 chips ;D
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ever thought of donk calling????
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ever thought of donk calling????
You aren"t still upset with my calling your all in with A5 v QQ and sucking out (again)
I knew I was behind but was mathematically compelled to call...i think :-\
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lol just wondering if u wud bite :-*
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lol
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for those interested in exploiting tendencies of others - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87/high-stakes-mtt/wcoop-main-event-hand-599498/ more confusion/folds :)
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if your donking to push people off hands on 4th and 5th street consider the following:
1) you yourself state that donking over inflates the pot making bluffs expensive because most occasions you either have to fold to a raise or face a tough decision on a turn where you have been smoth called before
2) if you inflate the pot then surley the fold equity diminishes on 4th and more so on 5th accordingly, so the ev chances of running profitable bluffs are therfore less likely
3) betting with medium strength hands possibly results in folding out hands we beat which we otherwise would have induced a bluff/continuation from
i dont want to sound like i am poo-pooing the idea but i just prefer donking on the following occasions rather than running elaborate and expensive bluffs:
1) to thin fields and isolate players in multi-way pots
2) to vary play as opposed to 3bet preflop versus steal attempt
3) to mix play up with very strong made hands
4) to price players out of cheap draws on active flops with made hand
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if your donking to push people off hands on 4th and 5th street consider the following:
1) you yourself state that donking over inflates the pot making bluffs expensive because most occasions you either have to fold to a raise or face a tough decision on a turn where you have been smoth called before
2) if you inflate the pot then surley the fold equity diminishes on 4th and more so on 5th accordingly, so the ev chances of running profitable bluffs are therfore less likely
3) betting with medium strength hands possibly results in folding out hands we beat which we otherwise would have induced a bluff/continuation from
i dont want to sound like i am poo-pooing the idea but i just prefer donking on the following occasions rather than running elaborate and expensive bluffs:
1) to thin fields and isolate players in multi-way pots
2) to vary play as opposed to 3bet preflop versus steal attempt
3) to mix play up with very strong made hands
4) to price players out of cheap draws on active flops with made hand
1. it makes it expensive for the person in position to raise..if you choose the right player style eg- the pot control type
you maybe surprised how many times you can pull this move off [but dont make it a habit :)] please look at threads on 2+2 and blonde to see how many fold.[dont forget if we are very sick puppies and we are 2bet on the flop then a 3bet bluff is still an option]
2.i believe that when they just call to ""re-evaluate"" 4th street then actually our fold equity increases if we are prepared to keep firing bullets.
3.do we want to try and get value oop with a medium strength hand? besides oop if you had a medium strength hand i"d say it would be a big mistake to not bet it the majority of the time. [all situational,board,opponent dependent of course,as they say ""never discount anything in poker""]
3) to mix play up with very strong made hands
totally agree,especially in cash games or early stages of deep stack mtts.
Poker is not a game of hands, but a game of situations,like in the camels hand,i"m pretty certain basebaldy had air or an over pair that he turned into a bluff.
I"ll leave you with this to ponder over,i tend to keep copies of articles that make me think/or are thought provoking,it actually helped a friend of mine so hopefully it might ""switch a light on"" for someone on APAT.
The problem is that playing more hands for the sake of playing more hands is just going to put you into tough situations with weaker hands. You must be playing more hands with a purpose. One of the more classic examples I try to give to show some of my students how to "flip the switch" and think differently involves them having pocket fours in the big blind with a button raiser. If you have 4,000 chip stacks, and 50/100 blinds and the button raises to 300 and it is folded to you in the big blind, should you call? If you've read this far I'm sure you know the answer is "it depends." If your only goal in calling with 4-4 from the big blind there is to flop a four and get paid, well you're probably actually losing money making that call. You're only going to flop the four one time in eight, and since your opponent is raising on the button his hand range is probably much wider than normal meaning it's much less likely that he's going to have a strong enough hand to pay you off with when you hit your set. A lot of my students are amazed when I have them look back on their small and mid pocket pair play out of the blinds with thirty to fifty big blinds that they actually show a pretty big loss with those hands.
The next thing they usually think is, "I should be folding pocket fours from the big blind then in these situations, right?" My response is always, "If you only can win the pot when you flop a four then yes, you should." This usually leaves them scratching their heads for a few moments. After all, they wanted me to help teach them how to play looser not tighter! After a few moments I will usually continue, "But if you can win the hand even a small percentage of the time without flopping a four, you can play this hand. If you even check-raise bluff something like one time in twelve on particularly unfavorable flops, even though it won't always work, if you're selective enough suddenly you win the hand the one time in eight that you flop a set and the one time in twelve you decide to bluff. So instead of winning the hand roughly twelve percent of the time you can win it closer to twenty percent of the time."
The idea is that you can turn a lot of marginal or even slightly unprofitable spots into profitable ones if you can simply win the hand a small percentage (often less than ten percent) of the time when you don't hit a hand You can often even win the hand more often if you start to recognize specific tendencies in your opponent. Maybe a particular opponent continuation bets far too often. Well then you could start playing a much wider variety of hands versus him and then either bluff raise or float some of his continuation bets in addition to the times when you hit hands. If you can start to win hands with other methods other than showing down the best hand it opens up a lot of avenues to win the pot. People often overestimate how often they need to do this too. It doesn't have to be something you do super often, if you can mix it in so you're winning hands just five to ten percent of the time when you miss, it can add tons to your bottom line.
Admittedly, your plays will not always work. Sometimes they will backfire. However, if you choose your spots well, and have a solid image to go along with it, you can start to mix things up with a few more hands, utilizing other methods at your disposal to win pots that would have otherwise eluded you. Often the difference between a good player and a great player is that the great player knows how to go and get the chips no one else wants. Once you start to think about poker situationally and just start to lightly sprinkle in new ways to win pots, you would be surprised at how many avenues open up to you. Particularly if you can pay attention to your opponents' weaknesses and habits and use those as a way to open up your game and show additional profit!
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Not sure I agree with the re-evaluate on 4th line. I have no problem if you have a plan on the flop but just randomly waiting to see what drops on 4th isnt great IMO. The fac you think FE is higher on 4th doesnt seem right to me either. I still think that in many cases donking the flop will results in a flat or a raise from villain (added to that your turn lead out) and so the pot size will be sufficiently large to make villain consider how commited he is. Plus you have to question (again board dependant) what hands progress on the flop but fold turn; given that donk plays are often weak/marginla hands, anyone faltting chasing draws is unlikely as they dont get the implied odds and anyone with value over our hand range wont fold out the turn anyway - they will just let us bet into them. So the plan only works as a stop go when we assume that someones range is wide enough to have missed the flop and ultimatley to run them off the hand on the flop. If they continue from then on I dont see that there is any great value in continuing to lead out. But each to their own.
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Basebaldy/Camel hand:
Here Basebaldy is donking into a preflop 3bettor, which narrow"s Camel"s range, especially at early stages and when so deep.
in my opinion Basebaldy is doing a bloody good impression of having a set rather than a bluff, if he is bluffing here i tip my hat to him. Just looks like a trip to valuetown most of the time.
but this hand has alot to do with reads/table image than anything else i suppose. Played basebaldy a few times and he is a good player and would certainly play a set this way to get 3 streets.
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uk champ i dont think you quite follow :) the re-evaluate line is by the person in position pot controlling there over pair on the flop when donked into , u"ll be amazed at how many [better players NOT some low buy in player] will just call to see what donk bettor will do on turn+river..browse through thread after thread on 2+2 pocket 5"s etc and see for yourself how many advise call and re-evaluate action on turn..
Yep i"ve had the pleasure of playing eric baldwin on tilt and yes this line is definitely in his repertoire,he is a good reader and a tricky so+so who performs moves like this..http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87/high-stakes-mtt/wcoop-main-event-hand-599498/ ape and sheets have him about spot on laggy agro is redundant huh.
i"m amazed at how many give him credit for having such a powerhouse hand :) not ;D
i think after the line camel took that folding was ok as he lacked or had few reads on baldwin at the time.
Played basebaldy a few times and he is a good player and would certainly play a set this way to get 3 streets.
yep i"ve seen him play sets like this[and air/over pairs] with shallower stacks but tbh i"ve never seen him bet so much on the river when pretty much he"d be putting camel on a big pair,he"d be looking to get paid off imo with a more appealing sized bet..
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so basically theory wise the question is ?
Player A raises and Player B 3bets in position and A calls , if A knows B"s hand and B has a bloody good idea that player A knows his hand, is the best strategy for A to bluff..?