Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Marty719 on October 19, 2009, 11:32:47 AM
Title: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 19, 2009, 11:32:47 AM
I know I misplayed it, but sunhow it seemed like the right line in my head at the time. Just to clarify - this hand didnt actually bust me - but majorly crippled me.
67 players left, pay jump at 64 (not massive but def changes the dynamic of hands at this point). I have just been moved to a new table and only have played w/ 2 of the players on it, neither of which were involved w/ this hand. I have 171k, villain has 240ish. Blinds r 5000/10000/1000. Have no prior info on villain at this point but he has a lot of ante chips which leads me to believe he has been playing a fairly agro style.
I bring it in from the c/o for 25k w/ AsQh and villain flats from the BB so 64k in the middle already at this point. Flop comes down KK2 rainbow. Villain checks, I hesitate and check back. This is not the line I would have taken w/ a king but villain has 0 info on me and the standard of play has been pretty grim in this tourney so Im assuming its standard. Turn is 8d putting 2 of board and villain leads 35k. At this stage I thought his range inc a lot of medium pairs, f/d"s and some air, as well of course as some Kx hands. I float the turn to re-evaluate. River brings the Jx and villain insta-checks. Here"s where I think I made a mistake as I think I can check back here a good majority of the time and have a good deal of showdown value, but I wanted to win the pot against the medium pair hands he has, and keeping up my trappy K line, I bet 60k on the river. Villain thinks for a while and re-shoves. FML - I muck.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on October 19, 2009, 12:04:15 PM
PF raise is standard, and you now have position. I don"t like the check on the flop, here I would have continued with 35/40k, and you would then have defined your hand, and also be able to evaluate the villains holding. After checking, villain is sensing weakness, hence his lead, again I am coming over the top or baling out at this point. Your bet on the river after the insta check, I can see your reasoning, but what are you beating? Check behind here and gain some info for later, as it is you have to give up the hand and haven"t learned a great deal. For what its worth I think he hit a J, with a holding of 10 J or Q J. Pretty good run though Marty, well played :)
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: deanp27 on October 19, 2009, 12:19:43 PM
just check back river.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: AMRN on October 19, 2009, 12:21:41 PM
Problem is that with an M of around 7 you are struggling to raise/fold here. Obv the preflop raise is standard. If you had c-bet the flop, it costs you 35k - you spent that 35k on the turn anyway, but found out far less information for your money. I can see where you"re going with your bet on the river, but it"s such huge proportion of your stack - you effectively put your tourney on the line with a bluff... I hate to be in that spot (been there loads though).
With 17 big blinds, an M of 7, late position, and no knowledge of rest of table...... there might even be an argument for raising bigger preflop and stating your intention to commit to the hand (perhaps even just a blatant shove is in order).
As played, I think I probably check behind on the river and see his cards - then look for spots to shove your remaining short(ish) stack.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Swinebag on October 19, 2009, 20:35:59 PM
I"m shoving this preflop for value. (M of 7, decent hand in LP)
you are just not deepstacked enough to be smallballing it.
With a 2.5x raise and cbet you are pretty much committed here. so only take your line if you intend to get them in at some point.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: WYoung83 on October 19, 2009, 21:13:32 PM
Deffo should of shoved pre flop....with antes out there you cannot possibly raise 2.5 x BB. Just does not work, the Big blind was getting over 3-1 and even with an average hand, he may not fold. So the only way to win the pot is to shove, you eliminate any mistakes on later streets.
Some people may say it is dangerous shoving because he is only goning to call if he has a better hand. But although it may be true, you arnt looking for a call anyway and from the sounds of it (like in the APAT toruneys, close to the bubble) just not enough chips in play to get cute post flop, annoying i know, but shoving is the optimal play.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Honeybadg on October 19, 2009, 21:18:39 PM
I am all in pre flop ... may well get called by ropey AJ/AT type hands ... if you run into AK,QQ,KK,AA ... just a cooler.
Once you are in the hand ... maybe bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop to induce a fold?? ... but there is almost no good play unless you hit.
L
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: JamieCarra on October 19, 2009, 22:25:07 PM
Don"t agree with shoving pre, everybody is generally playing so tight this deep in tourneys that you can risk far less for the same effect.
Pre is standard but I would be cbetting the flop for ~29k(Difficult to say what to do if he check shoves as you"ve only just moved to the table).
As played I would then make a small raise on the turn, to say 80k.
Once you flat the turn you have definitely got to check back on the river. You have still got a load of showdown value but I think you"re getting called by most pairs at this point.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 20, 2009, 09:02:31 AM
Just to clarify - I am never open-shoving 17x pre at this stage of this tournament. Have more thoughts on the hand as well but Il w8 a while for them!
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: deanp27 on October 20, 2009, 09:12:35 AM
preflop is fine, don"t open shove with 17xbb imo - 12 maybe the limit for me here.
this is a bad board to c-bet imo as pocket pairs and Kx peel so you don"t get rid of many worse hands and only get called by better. So that is fine.
you call turn as you feel like you have SD value then decide to turn your hand into a bluff, which is why i just check river.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Mikeyboy9361 on October 20, 2009, 09:19:47 AM
preflop is fine, don"t open shove with 17xbb imo - 12 maybe the limit for me here.
this is a bad board to c-bet imo as pocket pairs and Kx peel so you don"t get rid of many worse hands and only get called by better. So that is fine.
you call turn as you feel like you have SD value then decide to turn your hand into a bluff, which is why i just check river.
This is pretty much how I shuda played it - bet on the river was a major mind-fart! Just had it in my mind tht I had played the hand like I cud possibly have a K and felt oblidged to keep telling tht story on the river. Been kickin myself a lot for it.....literally! Getting lots of diff opinions for what to do accross various forums. I think I NEED to do one of 3 things for this hand to not b as bad!!
1-Bet 30k on flop
2-Raise the turn to 80k
3-Check back the river
I c/bet this flop about 70%+ of the time under normal circumstances, but it was the new table and all the villains ante chips that threw me. Didnt want to get raised and have a mammoth decision on the flop.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: deanp27 on October 20, 2009, 13:23:57 PM
yeah, you say "i float the turn to re-evaluate" which sort of indicates you didn"t really have a plan but just "let"s see what happens" sort of thing.
its tough playing in these spots with 17bb and such a turbo structure but i think if you bet flop you should not be folding, betting "for info" and folding with that stack and with AQ would be a mistake imo. Checking flop is best.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 20, 2009, 13:28:14 PM
yeah, you say "i float the turn to re-evaluate" which sort of indicates you didn"t really have a plan but just "let"s see what happens" sort of thing.
its tough playing in these spots with 17bb and such a turbo structure but i think if you bet flop you should not be folding, betting "for info" and folding with that stack and with AQ would be a mistake imo. Checking flop is best.
I prob worded that wrong - wen I floated the turn - I had intended to bet the river at the time. Its just in hindsight that I realise I shuda flatted to just slow him down! Have to say - structure was perfect for IPO this yr - on day 1 I was rarely below 50x! 2nd day had bigger antes but still a fir structure - I was more than happy w/ it - cnt really blame the structure for this hand.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Swinebag on October 20, 2009, 18:26:35 PM
I"m happy to shove up to 20BBs in certain situations, but given the description of the tourney that says you can get away with raising less then I can see the argument for raising less and playing a flop. This means you can steal much lighter without risking your stack.
However, If I enter the pot with AQ, with a smaller raise with my stack then I"m not folding the hand and am looking to get them in as soon as possible on the flop or turn if possible
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: WYoung83 on October 20, 2009, 18:59:56 PM
Most People are saying that shoving pre flop is bad in this situation, because you have 17 BBs. But what about the Small blind and the Antes also. Do these not figure in Tourney strategy??? It is all about the cost of surviving an orbit vs trying to go really deep, and with enough chips to sort of gain some Momentum.
A standard raise when there is Antes, is to not give the BB Value by calling. (especially with a good, but not monster like AQo) He is getting about 3.5-1 and he should be calling with a wide range, even out of Pos. So by raising bigger you are commiting youself to the hand anyway. So shoving is a play that many experianced tourney players would do in this spot, i know it may seem a bit crapshooty and that you are taking away all the post flop skill by shoving, but the trouble with hands like AQ is that you miss the flop 2/3 times and you raised so small pre flop that his range is way to wide to be able to figure out what he has. he probably had trash hand to begin with and i think you priced him in anyway.
But if you really hate shoving pre, then just stick it in on the flop, whatever comes down.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: AMRN on October 20, 2009, 20:52:09 PM
After more thought on this since my original response, I have to agree with Will"s comments. To raise enough to prevent the BB from having the odds to call, you will commit yourself - so may as well get them in first if you"re going to play the hand at all.
You don"t really want to be playing a flop with AQ at this time - ship them in and take the blinds and antes here. I don"t think 17xBB is too big to be open-shoving. If you raise 2.5xBB, then c-bet another 3xBB before having to fold, you"ve seriously degraded your fold equity.
Of course, if everyone folds, then the 2.5xBB raise is masterful.... problem is that without knowing the table, you may well get a caller, and then be in a sticky spot if you miss the flop.
Shipppp
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 21, 2009, 08:16:31 AM
Im am surprised at so many ppl wanting to op-shove pre. I know the blinds and ante"s r big and worthwhile, but I still dnt really like it. At this stage, ppl were playing pretty tight and I dount I would have got a call from nething I was beating. Also, it sort of means we have to ship AA/KK pre to keep the disguise (if ppl r paying attention) and thts clearly just awful and losing mega-value!
At what stack-size do the ppl who shove make it a standard raise?
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: deanp27 on October 21, 2009, 09:20:10 AM
i am probably open shipping 10-12bbs dependant upon hand - 17 bigs is too much, esp in a live game.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 21, 2009, 09:31:11 AM
i am probably open shipping 10-12bbs dependant upon hand - 17 bigs is too much, esp in a live game.
Yea - I think I open-ship under 12x prob
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: AMRN on October 21, 2009, 10:59:33 AM
so.... say you open raise from your late position with AQo for 2.5xBB and get re-raised to 8.5xBB. What"s your line?
There"s no way you can flat call as you are totally pot committed.
Do you reraise all in - but if you do, you have to kow that he cannot fold as your stack size means he is pot committed to make the call.
So your options are to reraise all in or fold....
If you fold, you have turned AQ into a bluff, and could well be folding the best hand. If you reraise shove, you are guaranteed a showdown and are at risk.
imo, AQo is not a hand I want to be either folding with an M of 7, but neither is it a hand I particularly want to be getting in to a showdown with for my tourney life at this stage.
By open shoving in this spot, those behind you have no opportunity to bluff you off the hand preflop, and if called to a showdown... well, you may well have ended up there anyway if you played it slower.... but by open shoving there is a huge chance here that you will take down the pot uncontested and add 24k to your stack - a 14% increase.
This is a horrible spot where your stack isn"t quite short enough for realistic shoving, but too short to play poker. I don"t think there is a right or wrong answer.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 21, 2009, 11:14:17 AM
If sum1 3-bet shoves w/ my stack size - Im quite happy to 4-bet shove and get it it pre. I actually have no problem w/ p/f in this hand. 25k was the standard raise at this stage and ppl were really playin tight - esp w/ the money jump momentarilly! Even if I c/bet the flop and get called and shut it down....I still have 11x. Im open-shoving from this stage - but I dnt think w/ 17x. I think c/betting the flop may actually b the best approach w/ my stack size!
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: deanp27 on October 21, 2009, 12:15:35 PM
AQ is a monster at this stage so raising small is to induce weaker hands to 3bet/jam against you. Raise/folding AQ with 17bb and antes is not on my agenda
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: noble1 on October 29, 2009, 00:08:04 AM
all various lines u can take have been mentioned , fwiw i prefer to shove pre 20bb or less when the blinds and antes are a significant plus to our stack..i"m not a fan of the original line that u took as imo it is a more high variance move compared to shoving pre [villain has indicated by the turn bet he has something and rather than the call turn block bet river line u took,then maybe shoving turn would provide more FE [thus a more profitable line long term] as played u have enough behind to fold it on the river and if check/check ace high maybe good :)and u still have a good stealing stack.
look into the maths marty for shove pre,even if villain calls top 30% hands [vv doubtful]and i cant be arsed to do the maths right now sry but i think you"ll find that shoving is very +ev.. there is a thread somewhere when a apat member was playing in a ept event with a pro who kept shoving on his blind where the maths behind it is explained,needless to say the apat member [sry i cannot remember the dudes name] kept folding......
Quote
I actually have no problem w/ p/f in this hand. 25k was the standard raise at this stage and ppl were really playin tight - esp w/ the money jump momentarilly! Even if I c/bet the flop and get called and shut it down....I still have 11x.
on the flip side if a 17bb stack with AQ[or ATC for that matter] will get more FE and if it does get called by whatever and u double up would not a 35bb+ stack be more beneficial in the late stages than a 11bb stack with less FE and by the sounds of it 2 bigger stacks on your left? rather than looking at this hand in isolation,look how it will affect future plays [the ole poker is a series of hands connected and people should stop looking at plays in a singular 1 situation way] i just think that u should not dismiss the idea of shoving the 20bb ish stack size but look at times when u can implement it into your poker repertoire..
thinking about shoving,can u guys and girls remember this..i luvvv it .. [youtube=425,350][/youtube] [youtube=425,350][/youtube] [youtube=425,350][/youtube] [youtube=425,350][/youtube]
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: WYoung83 on October 30, 2009, 01:01:13 AM
Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about. I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: deanp27 on October 30, 2009, 10:34:03 AM
Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about. I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.
whoa, just because someone agrees with you doesn"t mean it is the only valid point of view. Saying that someone with an alternative viewpoint doesn"t know what they are talking about is a bit arrogant, no?
shoving pre isn"t bad but just because something isn"t bad doesn"t mean it is necessarily the best way to play it. Shoving is unexploitable and majority of the time gets you the blinds and antes in the middle. However i prefer to raise hands as strong as this in the hope that someone tries to resteal with a weaker hand.
i mean what does "giving the BB odds to call" actually mean? Does that mean you will call any 3x raise or whatever out of the blinds with almost any 2 just because you have odds to call?
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: bigredders on October 30, 2009, 11:17:51 AM
Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about. I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.
whoa, just because someone agrees with you doesn"t mean it is the only valid point of view. Saying that someone with an alternative viewpoint doesn"t know what they are talking about is a bit arrogant, no?
shoving pre isn"t bad but just because something isn"t bad doesn"t mean it is necessarily the best way to play it. Shoving is unexploitable and majority of the time gets you the blinds and antes in the middle. However i prefer to raise hands as strong as this in the hope that someone tries to resteal with a weaker hand.
i mean what does "giving the BB odds to call" actually mean? Does that mean you will call any 3x raise or whatever out of the blinds with almost any 2 just because you have odds to call?
completely agree, although i dont mind shoving in this spot by just raising you can get weaker hands to shove as they think your on a steal, by shoving your getting rid of hands like ace rag kq-kj etc.
who cares if the bb calls... a big hand needs to be hit to call a shove on the flop
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 30, 2009, 11:22:04 AM
Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about. I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.
whoa, just because someone agrees with you doesn"t mean it is the only valid point of view. Saying that someone with an alternative viewpoint doesn"t know what they are talking about is a bit arrogant, no?
shoving pre isn"t bad but just because something isn"t bad doesn"t mean it is necessarily the best way to play it. Shoving is unexploitable and majority of the time gets you the blinds and antes in the middle. However i prefer to raise hands as strong as this in the hope that someone tries to resteal with a weaker hand.
i mean what does "giving the BB odds to call" actually mean? Does that mean you will call any 3x raise or whatever out of the blinds with almost any 2 just because you have odds to call?
I really agree with all of this. First things first...there is no set right/wrong way to play every situation and I think its pretty arrogant to think that way. There r more expoitable ways for sure, but evry option has advantages and disadvantages.
Im still not shoving 17x pre, as dean says I want to make is 25k and have sum1 in the BB spaz-shove w/ A9. However, if I open shove, Im pretty sure they r not gng to call here. Im more than happy to get it in pre in this spot if sum1 3-bets...I just want to give them that option!
Also...for balance sakes...r we open-shoving all our hands in this spot? Surely we r losing sum value from our premium hands? I think it is a case of being unexpoitable and picking up the valuable blinds and antes vs attempting to get max value from weaker hands at a greater risk. In this spot Im trying to extract max value to accumulate a good stack and give myself a good chance at a deep run.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 30, 2009, 11:40:30 AM
Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about. I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.
p.s. how much do u make it to outprice the bb if u have 25x. R u making it 4x pre w/ ur entire range?
Also, fwiw - the sentence in bold is fairly awful (I originally had a diff word in here but changed it to keep the friendly APAT environment :)).
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: noble1 on October 30, 2009, 12:17:10 PM
all the above yep yep to all the above,raising pre is ok as long as we have a plan post flop,the problem in this situation is we have a lack of reads on the sb and bb..imo it doesnt really matter which option u take be it shoving,limping or raising pre,although if it is turning into a discussion of how much we should raise then if any1 suggests anymore than 3x then i"ll disagree with them ;D with a 17bb stack if i raised and we are 3bet then yes it should be a automatic all the chips in pre scenario,i"d do that with a stack size upto around 24bb,a stack size above this then i"ll still leave an option of folding to a 3bet.. Marty/dean what i will add to the discussion though is that shoving may induce villain to call with weaker hands as well because the shove looks weaker than a raise,,especially in cases/situations if we were to know that villain was stack size aware and knew that marty was..The only line i disagree with is the one marty actually played [sry marty :)]
limping - i only suggest this if we were to know that sb or bb were agg monkeys and at our stack size we can limp shove to a raise and still have 2ways of winning the pot..
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 30, 2009, 12:22:53 PM
The only line i disagree with is the one marty actually played [sry marty :)]
lol - not a problem - the reason I posted the hand up was bcos I disagreed with my line here :) cheers for the input.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: deanp27 on October 30, 2009, 12:25:32 PM
not sure you get called 17bb shoves with weaker aces than AQ. Your hand looks like a hand too strong to pass but vulnerable. Therefore a good hand but not total premium. Exactly what your hand is.
I had this discussion in another thread somewhere and agree it is close and is a perfectly valid play.
just can"t see AJ snapping you off here, but then again i give opponents too much credit sometimes.
i just go for the win when i play and i try the higher risk maneouvre of trying to get some aggro guy to resteal on me with worse.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: JamieCarra on October 30, 2009, 12:49:43 PM
Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about. I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.
lol 17bbshoveaments
do you really think the most important thing in the BBs head is going to be the price he"s getting when he"s got a stack in the region of 20 - 25 BBs? Give him the price to call if he wants, he"s more than welcome to come along oop with his rags.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: noble1 on October 30, 2009, 13:17:20 PM
not sure you get called 17bb shoves with weaker aces than AQ. Your hand looks like a hand too strong to pass but vulnerable. Therefore a good hand but not total premium. Exactly what your hand is.
I had this discussion in another thread somewhere and agree it is close and is a perfectly valid play.
just can"t see AJ snapping you off here, but then again i give opponents too much credit sometimes.
i just go for the win when i play and i try the higher risk maneouvre of trying to get some aggro guy to resteal on me with worse.
i used to give to much credit as well,but after adding this into my game at low as well as high buy in tournys then i have seen quite a wide range call in similar situations with 22+ Ax it was sooooooted :) A9o+ KQs KJs and very occasionally even worse.. if we were in the bb then if marty were to std raise it seems a good spot to stop"n"go him,any lowish or paired flop would be ideal to shove and ace high with 14bb+ behind would definitely be a horrible/difficult spot to call.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: noble1 on October 30, 2009, 14:05:49 PM
do you really think the most important thing in the BBs head is going to be the price he"s getting when he"s got a stack in the region of 20 - 25 BBs? Give him the price to call if he wants, he"s more than welcome to come along oop with his rags.
hence if he calls,a 1/2 decent mtt player will stop+go given stack sizes and antes in play etc etc,,sry i"m defending the shove option in this situation/no reads as being the best line to take. A good piece of advice i got from a vv good mtt player i got once was
Quote
look to maximise EXPECTATION,not your chances of getting called.Big bets and overbets/shoves can be seen as bluffs in mtts and sometimes get paid off
good advice i thought :) always treat every poker game as a lesson and u wont go far wrong is my mantra..
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: Marty719 on October 30, 2009, 14:16:54 PM
Im prob not folding if he open shoves the flop. And while we have no direct reads, the fact that he has all the ante chips at the table leads us to belive he is very active.
do you really think the most important thing in the BBs head is going to be the price he"s getting when he"s got a stack in the region of 20 - 25 BBs? Give him the price to call if he wants, he"s more than welcome to come along oop with his rags.
This is 100% my though process in this spot. Really the final table were the only spots were the money was very good - I wanted to give myself a good chance to get there. Dnt want to open-shove every hand Im playing with <25x.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: noble1 on October 30, 2009, 14:39:40 PM
yep i saw that u noted he had lots of small chips but at a 24bb stack size i discounted that he had been recently active. i hope u can see the points i make for the stop+go at these stack sizes, as for calling if he did stop+go then good for u as it is the only defence against it,,but i"d like to see 1st that the player is capable of this pattern of play before i start calling. Stack wise its a high risk approach hence again in your situation/villains stacks i prefer shove pre,just seems more ev to me than any other play here we come up with.
anyhows good thread,got a few involved for once :)
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: WYoung83 on October 30, 2009, 19:42:00 PM
Its a really interesting thread and a problem that can be quite common in tourney play. i still think shoving is right, Unless you are going to stick it in on the flop no matter what he does when he acts first.
If i had a bigger stack infront of me. (say 20-25BBs, for arguments sake) i would raised 5xBB pre flop against this player with the antes out there. if he has me covered i like to manipulate the size of the pot so i can easily sick my stack in later in the hand, either by shoving to his repop or, on the flop after his flat call, no matter what comes down. The easiest thing in this situation for AQ, would be to shove pre after he repops, but he just flats. So it makes so many variables later on. Another thing to consider, Raising "bigger" pre flop against tougher opponents, people who have you covered or people who never fold the BB is, in my opion much better than the 2.5xbb that has created the situation that we are now discussing.
Anyway i never ment to be arrogant or disrespectful at all. i was just beign silly when i said that people dont know what they talking about, i have a black humor.
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: noble1 on October 30, 2009, 19:56:34 PM
just ran it through sheets shove it spreadsheet ,so outta interest here are the results - Players to act behind 2 Villain calls push with 10.3% 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo Effective stack 170000 blinds/antes 5000 10000 1000 Win % AQo vs shove call range - 50.5% Open Shove 200,678.35
give villain tighter range to call with of top 4% 99+,AQs+,AKo Win % AQo vs shove call range - 33.3% Open Shove 170,653.03
give villain a loose 30% call range - 55+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o Win % AQo vs shove call range - 60% Open Shove 330,384.00
so maths wise it is chip ev+
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: JamieCarra on October 30, 2009, 20:42:25 PM
just ran it through sheets shove it spreadsheet ,so outta interest here are the results - Players to act behind 2 Villain calls push with 10.3% 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo Effective stack 170000 blinds/antes 5000 10000 1000 Win % AQo vs shove call range - 50.5% Open Shove 200,678.35
give villain tighter range to call with of top 4% 99+,AQs+,AKo Win % AQo vs shove call range - 33.3% Open Shove 170,653.03
give villain a loose 30% call range - 55+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o Win % AQo vs shove call range - 60% Open Shove 330,384.00
so maths wise it is chip ev+
Calling a bet when last to act on the river with the stone cold nuts is +ev, it still doesn"t mean that it is the best option available though!
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: noble1 on October 31, 2009, 03:41:47 AM
uhhh? u lost me there jamie? i get u think shoving is bad and think raising to get a call is good,but imo that opens us up to a stop+go unless the plan is to call the shove even if we miss,do we cbet if we miss,shove any flop if checked to,do we want to give villain the opportunity to see a flop with a worse hand for cheap that may out flop us with these stack sizes? .. if raising is better than shoving with a 17bb stack and u think its the better line then please explain it,i keep running the scenarios through in my mind but can"t really see the benefit of raising myself with not much info on villain...with this sorta of stack size [17bb] and the antes in play i"m looking to steal and double up if called pre or shove on medium stacks that i think are raising light etc etc,i dont tend to want to play much post flop poker.. if that is bad then point out the error of my ways..
Title: Re: IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome
Post by: AMRN on October 31, 2009, 15:30:01 PM
Excellent thread!! Can see and understand positives and negatives in all potential actions here, but stand by my original view that open-shoving is a reasonable move, and may even be the best move.
All I was trying to say up front that open-shoving was a viable option that should not be discounted.... the more I think about it, with total lack of knowledge of the players at the table, I think that in my opinion, it may even be the best option.
(I"m kinda pleased that Noble1"s views supports mine ;D)