Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: deanp27 on October 30, 2009, 12:12:21 PM
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ok here"s an exam question - please give thought process etc
Just like some views on this - this happened to me early on in a DTD deepstack - 45 minute clock, 10,000 chips and blinds are 25/50 - about 20 minutes in. Assume we all have c10k stacks.
Blinds are seat 8&9 - i am in seat 5(hijack MP). Seat 2 has been very active and raised c25% of pots early from various positions(example A8s from UTG), seat 4 has been quiet but has made it obvious that he doesn"t rate seat 2.
Seat 2 makes it 200 and seat 4 makes it 600 - i look down at qd qh
1. what is your move and plan for the rest of the hand depending upon action?
2. Can you also consider how you would play the following starting hands:
AA
KK
JJ
22-TT
AK
tyvm
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hmmm lots of questions there dean :o
QQ - seat4 is the only ?? here , is he 3bet raising to isolate light or is he strong, its still early and we are deep and i dont really want to see a flop 3way with QQ so i"d make a std ish 4bet to 1800 to 2000 and if seat4 5bets i fold if seat2 gets funky and 4 folds i"m more than happy to take 2 on.. if both just call i"m not thrilled unless a Q comes on the flop ;D
AA KK meh i"m happy enough playing post in position with these so 50/50 just call/4bet
JJ AK meh horrible spot to 4bet and to just smooth ,, set mining JJ would be ok if was sure seat2 will call as well but i"m more in favour of folding both JJ and AK here
22-TT not really an ideal spot to set mine i tend to want around 20x implied odds ,, so like JJ i"d fold them as well..
what did u end up doing dean??
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not gonna tell you what i did yet until i get more responses - i don"t just want 1 word answers
response is good ty
i will say that i have had these sort of spots alot in very deepstacked comps such as the DTD anniversary cup etc and i think they are interesting - i seem to get queens 4x more than i get kings or aces in these comps lol.
so you are 4bet and felting vs seat 2 and 4bet/folding vs seat 4????
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sure if seat2 dude is raising 25% , me thinks is range is wide enough to call a shove pre if he makes it, if 2 smooths and 4 gets outta the way then post flop depending on 2"s line of play i"m more than happy to have position ;)
are u seat 2 by chance? ::) lol
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no i am seat 5 and reads are kind of unreliable as we are only 20 or so minutes into the comp.
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4-bet to 1800, fold to a 5-bet shove from either player (even particularly active players rnt gng to go mental in this spot).
AA - still 4-betting to 1800 and obv getting it in
KK - as above
22-TT - Insta-fold
JJ/AK - A good mix here depending on other variables:
-If we know seat 4 doesn"t rate seat 2 then he could b iso-3-betting a wider range than usual and our 4-bet wins the pot - obv if sum1 5-bet shoves we insta-muck.
-Flatting is only ok if we know seat 2 is only gng to 4-bet here with the top of his range and will flat w/ the majority of his opening range
-Folding is not in my nature but is a pretty good option in this spot.
I think I mix up JJ/AK depending on how I feel about the other players and what my image is at that time. Prob fold 50%/ Raise 30% and flat 20% ish
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so you are 4bet and felting vs seat 2 and 4bet/folding vs seat 4????
^ this
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I think I have the best hand here, but am not prepared to go to war this early with stacks so deep. I"m flatting and using position for the rest of the hand. If seat 2 comes back over the top then I have an easy fold.
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I think I have the best hand here, but am not prepared to go to war this early with stacks so deep. I"m flatting and using position for the rest of the hand. If seat 2 comes back over the top then I have an easy fold.
I sorta dnt mind flatting but leads to sum ugly situations:
- What if we get a raggedy 9 high flop and seat 2 bets 1k and seat 4 folds?
- What if seat 2 checks and seat 4 bets 1k?
What r our actions in each?
Just think its quite hard to approach these flops w/ zero information on the players, and very little information on their hands.
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I think I have the best hand here, but am not prepared to go to war this early with stacks so deep. I"m flatting and using position for the rest of the hand. If seat 2 comes back over the top then I have an easy fold.
Nearly with this, but I raise pre, and then go along with the rest.
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I think I have the best hand here, but am not prepared to go to war this early with stacks so deep. I"m flatting and using position for the rest of the hand. If seat 2 comes back over the top then I have an easy fold.
Nearly with this, but I raise pre, and then go along with the rest.
I agree with Dan on this one.
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I think I have the best hand here, but am not prepared to go to war this early with stacks so deep. I"m flatting and using position for the rest of the hand. If seat 2 comes back over the top then I have an easy fold.
Nearly with this, but I raise pre, and then go along with the rest.
I agree with Dan on this one.
I"ve changed my mind then.
Flat call pre instead, no idea why, but it"s different to what Leigh would do.
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range of answers so far - anyone want to assign possible ranges and plan etc if they do flat? how would you play the other hands i posted?
i know this is a bit tougher than the normal hand analysis post but i think these type of spots are quite interesting
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The way you describe seat2, he could have any two cards - and QQ smashes most of his range.
Given the animosity from seat4 to seat2 as you described, seat4 could be 3-bettng a very wide range here.
Flat calling with QQ is a mistake - you need more info before you play a flop. Couple that with the fact that QQ is the third best starting hand, and is most probably ahead here, you have to re-raise.
If seat2 shoves, I think a call is reasonable. If seat4 shoves, I suspect AA/KK and I fold.
If both or either flat call, I"m ready to get my stack in if the flop shows no K or A.
Any K or A on the flop after their flat call, and I open or raise in position to see what happens.
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I"d need to see a flop before a plan of action and would see what oppo does first.
I"d also flat with AA,KK and AK as part of a balanced strategy. I"m probably folding the rest though
Hand ranges are difficult to assign.
seat 2 may be tighter having shown A8 UTG (so go for top 20%)
seat 5 may be looser than expected for a MP 3 bettor.
I suppose the 4 bet would narrow these ranges but it seems bad to 4 bet/fold having put in 20% of your stack in. What would we do if called then check raised on a low card flop?
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right ok i can see this is a difficult one.
one thing to remember is that you aren"t closing the action if you call, this is important.
My thoughts at the time were:
I know their ranges could be fairly wide at this point. Although not sure seat 4 had ability to 3bet with air. only 20 minutes in I can"t put too much weight to observations and i have to assume that they aren"t complete donks.
I don"t want to get QQ in for 200bigs preflop as i am likely crushed if i do.
If i 4bet i fold out all dominated hands and only AK comes along (maybe), so basically i will be 4betting to take the pot down.
I"d hate to 4bet/fold with QQ against anyone because it basically turns my hand into a bluff.
Therefore i was unsure, i flatted for 600 and trusted i could play from there. i figured 3 ways that the aggressor was less likely to barrel unmade hands and i could use position well. Plus my hand is slightly under-repped (to people who maybe don"t know better).
However, seat 2 proceeded to make it 2700 to go.....and original 3bettor folded...... my move?
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Curse urself 4not making it 1800 :)
Well ur clearly not flatting! I think u prob have to lay it down - I know most ppl will say get it in against this guys image - but we just havent cn Enough at this stage to know he will risk 25%+ of his stck without a monster!!
I really like his bet-size btw!! Takes flatting away as an option and gets ppl to shove/fold. He cud b a donk - or he cud b sum1 tht understands his image v well and makes it 2700 so it appears ppl have fold equity against him and may shove a slightly wider range than usual.
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you have to give him credit for a better hand here. Fold and be grateful it only cost you 600.
You need a more solid read to play this guy for stacks, this early.
I agree that his bet size is excellent
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i actually think his bet size is a bit on the large side (although i don"t know what he held as i folded). I was never calling here.
i reflected on this hand alot, i still think he was possibly weak-ish vs my queens and could have done this with JJ/AK. However he has done this with a 3bettor still to act and i have to credit him for a huge hand really. It was hard to really get a read on him so early.
He went on to win the comp and actually knocked me out (i squeezed 78s later on when he and the other guy both entered pot again, he had aces this time obv and i bricked my pair&flush draw on flop).
yes i guess i should be grateful for only losing 600 but on reflection i think i should probably open muck every hand bar aces and kings here preflop as the downsides or playing other hands vs their ranges are huge compared to the upsides. If i 4bet i really want a fold at this stage(so i might as well not have QQ) as i doubt i get action from JJ etc. If i call i have no real idea where i am and am open to being 4betted (as well as turning my hand range sort of face up).
or maybe i am just turning into a huge nit in my old age.
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i actually think his bet size is a bit on the large side (although i don"t know what he held as i folded). I was never calling here.
His bet-size has to b on the large-side here. He wants to take flatting 100% out of the question and leave it open for ppl to just spaz-shove here so he can snap it off. It means other players have to put it in or fold. Also gives the impression that there is still some f/e.
Edit: Or Im giving him wayyyy too much credit!!
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As You say so early/ deep stacked/ little info. You would have to take into account that seat 4 has woken up with a hand and trying to extract max from seat 2. Also seat 2 appearing to be somewhat manic, may also just have the hand this time. So before any post flop (pre) analysis, do you want to get involved at all here. Hard to let your ladies go I know, but i would have to be playing here before i commited to taking any part at this stage. AA defo 4bet, KK > also at least see if 2 or 4 refires. Maybe flat JJ/hope for call by 2/fold to any re>. Again i would have to be there myself, it"s no way absolute as to how i would act/react. aLL OTHERS I THINK ARE IN THE MUCK B4 IT GETS TO ME. :)
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Oh dear, read all thread b4 posting :(
Still, this was my immediate take on the situation. BTW under - repped? as in under represented by just flatting? forgive my inexperience.
If you had gone onto > 1800, what now when he re>"s to say 3600? I Think you still have to let go, so yeah agreed cost you 600 only. Could you possibly put him super Agg and push? Think not and you already stated not wanting to put 200 BB"s in pre, so that combined with the fact he won, i refer back to my original post above. Easily said after the event but yeah, i fold pre. Come on Broomcorns uncle or auntie, whatever ;D