Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: Mikeyboy9361 on November 24, 2009, 11:59:23 AM
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3rd level at the APAT tournament in Luton, so blinds 100/200. I have 12,500 and am playing TAG, and the villain has a very similar stack. The table had been fairly tight, with only one or two clashes. We had Brendan Byrne and Rupinder Bedi on the table both playing a small ball game, but this pot didn"t involve them.
I am dealt AKo in late position, and it is folded round to the villain, two to my right. My history with this guy is that I had re raised him on two previous occasions, and got him to lay down. On this occasion he raises to 1000. Now here I know I should have re raised, but having done it twice recently I wanted to mix up my play, so I just flat, everyone else folds.
Flop is K J 6 rainbow, happy days. Villain checks I bet 2000, villain check raises to 4000, I call. Turn is a non scare card, he checks, and now slightly concerned I check behind. River blanks, this time he leads out for 5000. Now what, I call with TPTK and win a good pot to leave me well placed, or lose and am down to just over 10BB. What would you do? Thoughts?
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3bet pre - he has made it worthwhile
his raise size is huuuuuge and can indicate AQ/AK/TT/JJ type hands
you called flop, checked turn to call river amirite?
i don"t fold this as played, tbh i half expect to see hime turn over the ace and the king
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Given that you haven"t shown much aggression in the hand, he probably can"t put you on a strong hand and the river bet feels like an attempt to steal... Also, thinking about his bet sizing of 5xBB to open from MP preflop - that doesnt feel like a massive hand - perhaps AK or a medium pair. I think the only thing likely to be beating you here is a pair that has caught a set on turn or river. If he flopped a set, he didn"t play too well by checking the turn and allowing straight draws to catch up.
I think I might make a crying call here and hope to see KQ or QQ, or an underpair, but most likely AK. Wouldn"t blame you for folding though. Think it would come down to any sign of phsyical tells for strength or weakness. 50/50.
Would have raised pre though.
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Yea 100% 3-bet pre!! Had he made it 5x w/ his entire range?? I prob pay him off on the river as played.
Once checked to on the flop, I dnt think I bet 2k either. Prob around 1300. The fact that such a large % of ur stack has gone in on the flop makes it hard to fold. What is he min-raising the flop w/ and checking the turn!?
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by raising pre it defines your hand better, you can also narrow the villians range.
kj/jj is definately possible here but i think you have to make the call as played as it also could be quite easy be a steal as you have shown weakness on the turn. By betting the turn you also find out where you are at, saving yourself a tricky decision on the river
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by raising pre it defines your hand better, you can also narrow the villians range.
kj/jj is definately possible here but i think you have to make the call as played as it also could be quite easy be a steal as you have shown weakness on the turn. By betting the turn you also find out where you are at, saving yourself a tricky decision on the river
Im pretty sure I check back the turn for some pot-control after we r min-raised on the flop. We have already invested 5k of our 12.5k stack so bet/folding isnt really an option on the turn.
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by raising pre it defines your hand better, you can also narrow the villians range.
kj/jj is definately possible here but i think you have to make the call as played as it also could be quite easy be a steal as you have shown weakness on the turn. By betting the turn you also find out where you are at, saving yourself a tricky decision on the river
Im pretty sure I check back the turn for some pot-control after we r min-raised on the flop. We have already invested 5k of our 12.5k stack so bet/folding isnt really an option on the turn.
after re-evaluating it, you are right, you can"t really check-fold that turn, should really read the hand through properly instead of glancing over it before i post! ::)
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also agree that 2k on the flop with stack sizes is a bit meaty
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I agree 100% I should have raised pre, I just was mixing things up, this turned out to be a major mistake. My flop bet of 2K was to take the pot down there and then, thinking if he then comes back at me, he must have something. My thoughts on checking the turn was pot control, if I bet here and am called or raised I am definitley pot comitted, as my bet would have had to be at least 2k, but more like 3k.
So after a bet of 5BB and then a check raise on the flop, I am putting him on Jacks, this would fit how many people would play Jacks and then a flopped set. Physical tells I always find difficult, but I did give him a good old fashioned stare down, and he actually looked very strong.
So with 7.5K I am still very much in the tournament, a much respected APAT player told me earlier this year that you can"t win the tournament in the first few levels, but you can certainly lose it. ( That very player actually went out really early on the next table when his AK on a K high flop ran into aces - And I actually think that was also on my mind) Or I make a hero call, lose and am down to 2.5k, which is a long way back.
So discretion being the better part of valour I laid it down, only for him to flip A 2 o! I actually thought he played it great, and congratulated him on a hand well played. He showed strength all the way through, and I think that was the main reason for folding.
I managed to get back into the tourney, and eventually went out in about 60th spot, but it was a real slog, maybe if I had made the call the impetus would have carried me onto a more successful event.
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Funnily, it was that persons hand (on my table) that was in my mind when I read your OP - AK into AA on a K hi flop..... but I discounted that in your situation as a 5xBB open raise with AA would be so unlikely.
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3rd level at the APAT tournament in Luton, so blinds 100/200. I have 12,500 and am playing TAG, and the villain has a very similar stack. The table had been fairly tight, with only one or two clashes. We had Brendan Byrne and Rupinder Bedi on the table both playing a small ball game, but this pot didn"t involve them.
I am dealt AKo in late position, and it is folded round to the villain, two to my right. My history with this guy is that I had re raised him on two previous occasions, and got him to lay down. On this occasion he raises to 1000. Now here I know I should have re raised, but having done it twice recently I wanted to mix up my play, so I just flat, everyone else folds.
Flop is K J 6 rainbow, happy days. Villain checks I bet 2000, villain check raises to 4000, I call. Turn is a non scare card, he checks, and now slightly concerned I check behind. River blanks, this time he leads out for 5000. Now what, I call with TPTK and win a good pot to leave me well placed, or lose and am down to just over 10BB. What would you do? Thoughts?
5x pre? wowser good std of play then.. without much to go on about villains ranges or style then pre-flop its a 3bet for me,you still have room to fold stack wise if he 4bets if you read him strong.Saying that it he may well be getting pissed off with you 3betting him and get spewy with AQ AJs or maybe worse type hands.
As played when he check min raises the flop then calling is not an option for me [it means we have put 5000 of our 12500 stack in,not good if we are going to fold to anymore action] so its a judgement call to 3bet all in on the flop or fold..His range here - AK AJ QT KJ JJ 66 QQ KQ KT , KK vv doubtful so for me i"d 3bet all in as played and if the donk has a set then c"est la vie but i"d favour it being an ace x hand or QQ JJ or KQs or junk mostly here..
As said by others your bet sizing on the flop is a bit strong 1/2 to 3/4 pot would be fine, i wouldnt even be against checking behind and getting 2 streets of value on the turn and river..
edit - lmao mikey let me finish my post before u stick in result, Ax hmmm ... my post above still remains ;D
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5x pre? wowser good std of play then.. without much to go on about villains ranges or style then pre-flop its a 3bet for me,you still have room to fold stack wise if he 4bets if you read him strong.Saying that it he may well be getting pissed off with you 3betting him and get spewy with AQ AJs or maybe worse type hands.
As played when he check min raises the flop then calling is not an option for me [it means we have put 5000 of our 12500 stack in,not good if we are going to fold to anymore action] so its a judgement call to 3bet all in on the flop or fold..His range here - AK AJ QT KJ JJ 66 QQ KQ KT , KK vv doubtful so for me i"d 3bet all in as played and if the donk has a set then c"est la vie but i"d favour it being an ace x hand or QQ JJ or KQs or junk mostly here..
As said by others your bet sizing on the flop is a bit strong 1/2 to 3/4 pot would be fine, i wouldnt even be against checking behind and getting 2 streets of value on the turn and river..
edit - lmao mikey let me finish my post before u stick in result, Ax hmmm ... my post above still remains ;D
eeew - you would really 3bet/fold AK against a guy who 5x opens? i don"t like that bit at all, it should be a 3bet/fistpump get it in.
also calling the flop min raise is the best option imo, it gives the opposition chance to fire again with their air/draws. Postflop it was played well apart from the fold on the end of course. If you are folding when it goes brick/brick then you should probably just fold the flop Mikey.
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villain has put in near 1/2 his stack pre+flop dean hence i cannot see point of trying to get value?
also - [it means we have put 5000 of our 12500 stack in,not good if we are going to fold to anymore action]
i did say folding later was not good :)
getting 60bb+ all in pre on a flip at best with AK in a deep structure [i assume] is not very good imo against weak players who we can out play post flop.
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Mike. I havent read other comments because i need to go shopping, soon and havent got the time, im just going to give my assesment.
Repop him pre to about 4000. He will either fold or shove. If he folds then great, and if he shoves you have now manipulated the pot size for yourself to make a crying call. (it also eliminates mistakes on later streets by the way). If he does take the weird line and just flats you, then get it all in on a decant flop. With AK, i much prefer hitting the K rather than the A. its less likely for him to make 2 pair on this sort of flop. Once its all in then Let the poker gods do the rest.
The line you took is ok, if you want to mix things up a little, but you have to be willing to play smallball afterwards on later streets. The trouble with this, is that you have choosen a passive approach, and now find yourself either beign bluffed (only semi bluff here is A-10, Q-10 or AQ) , or he has hit a set and hoping that you have AK. It actually makes the hand a little easier to see a rainbow flop.
With his check raise the pot has balloned out of controll, and you dont know where you stand, You should of got it all in on the flop now, (again to eliminate mistakes on later streets)
however by not getting it in on the flop, you are forced to check the turn because you dont want to get check raised twice????, you check for pot controll, trouble is the pot is already to big to smallball his ass.
You have shown weakness, so he could actually be value betting the same hand as you AK? I rekon it looks here that he has a set however. His pre flop raise is way to big anyway. I alway see donks doing a overly big raise pre with Jacks. (people hate jacks because they are sacred of playing after the flop)
so what happenend. Let us know please...
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I was the villain in this case, i didn"t open 5x pre - it was MAX 3x but cant remember exactly, just thought i would clear that up. Obviously, without the 5x pre some of the other bet sizes are incorrect (pot was a lot smaller, the 4k i put out on the river was just over half pot i think, it left me about 6k behind). I also think i bet the turn, which he called, probably half pot. I bet the river purely because i thought my line was so strong that i could get him off KQ (the flat pre and play on flop/turn i put him on KQ) and any smaller paired hands, i didnt think he would fold AK.
Anthony
P.S. I really enjoyed the event, great experience for my first live tourney!
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Not how I remember it, my recollections are as stated, but having said that my mind was spinning after being bluffed off it!! ;) Well played again, for your first live tournament you handled yourself very well, and had a pretty good run. See you at the next one, to resume hostilities.
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but i"d favour it being an ace x hand or QQ JJ or KQs or junk mostly here.
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If this is his range y wud we ever consider 3/betting flop. Surely he folds all worse hands, and cannot continue with ne bluffs on further streets. If I flat the flop tho - I am pretty much commited to putting my chips in the middle.
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villain has put in near 1/2 his stack pre+flop dean hence i cannot see point of trying to get value?
also - [it means we have put 5000 of our 12500 stack in,not good if we are going to fold to anymore action]
i did say folding later was not good :)
getting 60bb+ all in pre on a flip at best with AK in a deep structure [i assume] is not very good imo against weak players who we can out play post flop.
there is always point in getting value, people do put half their stack in and fold (esp in live games - see Darvin Moon) especially if they have a complete airball. calling the flop and letting villain barrel gets a wider range of hands in for stacks that going straight out and re-raising the flop.
The point about 3betting is a simple one. If you are not willing to 3bet/call 60bb with AK after 5x opens then you should not be 3betting at all. 3bet/folding is turning a premium hand into a bluff. Also i think most people overrate how much they can outplay post flop, especially as stacks get shallower (hero"s even shallower if we 3bet/fold AK). APAT events are good structured events, but deep post flop play doesn"t last forever in these once you hit the 200/400 level and beyond.
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but i"d favour it being an ace x hand or QQ JJ or KQs or junk mostly here.
If this is his range y wud we ever consider 3/betting flop. Surely he folds all worse hands, and cannot continue with ne bluffs on further streets. If I flat the flop tho - I am pretty much commited to putting my chips in the middle.
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because the bet sizing and the line took post flop made me favour an ace x hand or QQ JJ or KQs or junk as villains range after check turn..
villain has put in near 1/2 his stack pre+flop dean hence i cannot see point of trying to get value?
also - [it means we have put 5000 of our 12500 stack in,not good if we are going to fold to anymore action]
i did say folding later was not good :)
getting 60bb+ all in pre on a flip at best with AK in a deep structure [i assume] is not very good imo against weak players who we can out play post flop.
there is always point in getting value, people do put half their stack in and fold (esp in live games - see Darvin Moon) especially if they have a complete airball. calling the flop and letting villain barrel gets a wider range of hands in for stacks that going straight out and re-raising the flop.
The point about 3betting is a simple one. If you are not willing to 3bet/call 60bb with AK after 5x opens then you should not be 3betting at all. 3bet/folding is turning a premium hand into a bluff. Also i think most people overrate how much they can outplay post flop, especially as stacks get shallower (hero"s even shallower if we 3bet/fold AK). APAT events are good structured events, but deep post flop play doesn"t last forever in these once you hit the 200/400 level and beyond.
on the flop - the more money an opponent puts into the pot, the better his hand is likely to be at that time,but where my logic comes into mikeys situation here is that this pot is big enough and worth taking down now,the reason i might think tptk is good here if called is when players play flops a lot of the time there bet or raising ranges tend to be wider than there calling ranges when 1st to act in a raised pot against 1 caller,so to me 66 JJ on a rainbow flop a lot of players will tend to c/c or lead with a std cbet or less, the pot is so big now compared to both stacks that if mikey 3bets all in king worse kickers will call and QT obv will call as might AJ QJ some of the time QQ may make a crying call, if mikey just calls we dont have any info that villain will continue with his bluffing range especially if the turn or river brings any scare cards for him and us such as 9 aces jacks queens even tens might kill all the action,as it turned out the turn check by mikey was ideal along with the 2 bricks as MasterofRNG did decide to bluff..For mikey as played though upto flop imo the 3bet all in is the way to go.
your point dean on 3bet folding - imho if players are not capable of making laydowns with hands such as AK QQ JJ etc [all premium hands btw] then thats not a good tendency to have,.maybe its because players hate feeling they are being had/pushed around and cannot bear the idea that they maybe folding the best hand. meh just my opinion of course which rightly or wrongly i"m not going to change.. :)
when i saw MasterofRNG explaination on his river bet and the line he took [well the way mikey remembers :)], it reminded me of an article that i read somewhere on check min raises on flops that i copied and filed away , here it is -
A lot of the time, a check min raise will work on the flop, but this is only if your opponent is bluffing and is also a weak player post flop
WHAT IF THEY CALL?
If they call the reraise, it is a safe bet that they have a hand. However, it is also possible they have a draw. Here you'd have to size up your opponent and really think if they would have called with a weak hand. Usually, the amount of time they take to decide to call can be an indicator as to how strong their hand is: the longer they take, the more unsure they are.The safest bet is to check the turn and see how your opponent acts,if he checks, then he may well be scared and you might be able to bet again on the river (if the turn and river are favorable) and have decent fold equity
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Villian 3x pre.
C/raised flop
Bet 1800 on turn
then 4k on tiver
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masterofRNG what did you have??
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A2o