Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: pokernuts07 on December 04, 2009, 12:59:44 PM
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Always like to try and analise my exiting hands in live tourneys to see if I made the correct play. Views please on this one....
I have 6k left, average is about 10k and this is the last hand of blinds 300/600 (moving up to 400/800). In SB with tc 8h. 4 limpers before me so I call the 300, BB checks. Pot is 3600.
Flop is 5h ts 7c
I have 5400 left.....what"s the play here? I am 1st to act.
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Firstly, I don"t like the limp/make up from the SB. You are setting yourself up to play with raggy cards out of position in a multi-way pot.... catch anything on the flop and you"re stuck..... and it seems that this is exactly what happened.
With 10xBB, and nobody showing any aggression preflop, I would prefer to shove here..... and if you don"t feel the right vibes for the shove, then fold. Don"t be fooled by the fact that you"re getting 11/1 to make up the blind.
As played (and without any other info on players) check/fold - you"ve no way of knowing if your top pair without a kicker is good. If someone bets and you have sufficient reads to put them on a steal with AK type hand, then shove to try and get to a HeadsUp showdown - you don"t want to end up in a multiway showdown here with such a marginal holding.
Shove or fold preflop though.
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Ahem....................................ship (sorry Noble)
Yea, u dnt have enough to bet-fold (I guess u cud bet call but may as well ship imo)
Cnt really check and have an overcard fall on turn
Cnt check fold top pair w/ ur spr imo...u even have backdoor str8 draws!!! ;D
Edit: Heres quite a good write-up about these situations as well - http://misanthropicpoker.blogspot.com/2007/10/pnl-part-4c-playing-top-pait-with-spr.html
I also agree w/ Steve that this cud b a gd squeeeeeeeze spot.
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Hmm...
I shoved on the flop. Guy in late position took an age, then called my all-in. He had A 10.
Turn was a 6 giving me some more outs but river was blank.
Interesting views Steve and make sense. Not sure I can check/fold there though. Can"t bet/fold either but liking the pre-flop shove. Would probably of got through.
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Hmm...
I shoved on the flop. Guy in late position took an age, then called my all-in. He had A 10.
Turn was a 7 giving me some more outs but river was blank.
Interesting views Steve and make sense. Not sure I can check/fold there though. Can"t bet/fold either but liking the pre-flop shove. Would probably of got through.
Awww way too early for results :( - always influences ne further discussion.
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;D sorry
Please post more views though......
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Shove pre IMO
with 4 limpers and the bb your Getting 3k. That"s 50% of your stack. Effectively like a double up. If your getting a bad feeling like you"ve seen someone limped with aces or kings previously or AK who wil insta call a shove then fold
88 isn"t a strong hand but it"s good enough to jam it all in pre with the limpers and chase out those ace9 suited or qj hands
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Shove pre IMO
with 4 limpers and the bb your Getting 3k. That"s 50% of your stack. Effectively like a double up. If your getting a bad feeling like you"ve seen someone limped with aces or kings previously or AK who wil insta call a shove then fold
88 isn"t a strong hand but it"s good enough to jam it all in pre with the limpers and chase out those ace9 suited or qj hands
I had 10 8 but I get your point.
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Shove pre IMO
with 4 limpers and the bb your Getting 3k. That"s 50% of your stack. Effectively like a double up. If your getting a bad feeling like you"ve seen someone limped with aces or kings previously or AK who wil insta call a shove then fold
88 isn"t a strong hand but it"s good enough to jam it all in pre with the limpers and chase out those ace9 suited or qj hands
On another note, ppl tht limp at this level w/ A9s or QJ shud b lynched.....genuinely :-\
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FYP
Shove pre IMO
with 4 limpers and the bb your Getting 3k. That"s 50% of your stack. Effectively like a double up. If your getting a bad feeling like you"ve seen someone limped with aces or kings previously or AK who wil insta call a shove then fold
88 isn"t a strong hand but it"s good enough to jam it all in pre with the limpers and chase out those ace9 suited or qj hands
On another note, ppl tht limp at this level w/ A9s or QJ shud b lynched.....genuinely :-\
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i quite like checking here as played (hmm not sure whether completing is good or not, definitely not shoving pre).
this gives us chance to assess what happens behind and who bets (if anyone) - say if BB EP limper leads we can safely fold or if button leads his range is likely to be weaker and we can more reliably jam for value. Obviously if it goes bet/call or bet/raise we can fold safe in the knowledge we aren"t good.
of course all of this depends on how the players are and notes we have on individuals, as well as our own image.
i don"t hate the open shove flop but not sure it is best.
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i quite like checking here as played (hmm not sure whether completing is good or not, definitely not shoving pre).
Why not? Nobody has shown aggression - there"s a reasonable chance we will take down a significant addition to our stack uncontested, and even if we do get a caller, we are like to have live cards and may only be as bad as 4/6. Got to get chips in sooner or later at this stage - why is now such a bad spot with all those limps in the middle?
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Got all that then? According to our panel you should have shoved, folded or limped preflop & on the flop either shove, check-fold or check-jam. Glad we have cleared that up for you. Anyone else want our expert advice?
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Got all that then? According to our panel you should have shoved, folded or limped preflop & on the flop either shove, check-fold or check-jam. Glad we have cleared that up for you. Anyone else want our expert advice?
lol - true - imo shove or fold pre
as played shove flop
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Got all that then? According to our panel you should have shoved, folded or limped preflop & on the flop either shove, check-fold or check-jam. Glad we have cleared that up for you. Anyone else want our expert advice?
LOL ;D
Mixed opinions then.......which is good in a way. Seems a few plays could of been made here, obviously in hindsight I picked the wrong one :(
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Got all that then? According to our panel you should have shoved, folded or limped preflop & on the flop either shove, check-fold or check-jam. Glad we have cleared that up for you. Anyone else want our expert advice?
What is your preferred play John?
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Got all that then? According to our panel you should have shoved, folded or limped preflop & on the flop either shove, check-fold or check-jam. Glad we have cleared that up for you. Anyone else want our expert advice?
LOL ;D
Mixed opinions then.......which is good in a way. Seems a few plays could of been made here, obviously in hindsight I picked the wrong one :(
Just because u ran into A10 this time does not nec make it the wrong play. Cnt b too results orientated in this spot.
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obv depends on players, their stack sizes and their limping ranges but i don"t like shoving 10bb with weak hands after 4 limpers. Just think there are loads of better spots as you should be getting called a high % of the time by a better hand.
but then again if there are so many limpers at this blind level then i would imagine that it isn"t as terrible a move as i initially said as it appears some of them are a bit clueless anyway
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Got all that then? According to our panel you should have shoved, folded or limped preflop & on the flop either shove, check-fold or check-jam. Glad we have cleared that up for you. Anyone else want our expert advice?
What is your preferred play John?
It"s difficult - I guess its a fast structure if you"re short without being that far below average. Shoving pre is probably the simplest. Add the limps to your stack to get back on track, get called & get busted or suck out for a big increase.
Going 6-handed to the flop, you"re gonna have to hit it quite hard & one pair probably won"t be enough. Initially, I thought I hate it but probably I"ll shove it in & hold my breath - if we are called we are beaten but we should force draws & weak pairs out so they don"t overtake us (depending on stacksizes). Actually we could have done this with any cards, so our top pair is now irrelevant as our hand has become a bluff. As I said, if we are called, we are losing, though we could hit another 8 or T and a 4, 6, 9 or J on the turn also gives us a straight draw (clutching at draws now).
On the other hand, our hand is weak and any limper could have 2P. Some of the limpers will probably have caught draws at a minimum and I am wary that the 5,7 combination has done favours for someone. I can see the merits of check-folding an EP lead and check-jamming a button lead, though what if his bet is more than half our stack? What if I check & so does everyone else? Am I winning? Shove on the turn? Maybe I was winning on the flop but now I"ve been overtaken on the turn? I"m now regretting getting into this situation and just want to get out of this hand alive. But, hold on, maybe I can still pick up all the chips in the middle. But now I"m even more likely to get busted. Horrible situation.
Against fewer players, I might play the flop aggressively but against 5, I think I"m assuming that I need to improve, so I"m probably check-folding with this stack. With a proper stack I"m calling (or leading) but here we can"t afford to call and then fold on the turn. If I get to the turn for free and then improve, I"ll go for it.
Conclusion
- Limping into this scenario is more dangerous than shoving pre. Shove or fold pre. Shove.
- Shove flop against fewer but check-fold against 5.
- Don"t play fast tournaments where the structure inhibits your game.
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The faster the tourny the more agressive you need to be. In this case dont even look at you cards pre flop. Just ship it.
The only player you need to get through is the open limper. Given the situation this is what i would do.
This move works if the first limper has isnt trapping, and if the BB doesnt wake up with AA through to 88 or a very good ace.
If anyone behind the first limper calls you now, then why didnt they raise the open limper in the first place????
And if you go broke safe in the knowledge that you made a stand to try and get chips, just move onto next tourney.
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Limping OOP even with the odds, with junk, is only likely to get you in deep do do. But having done so, I would be shoving.
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3300 in pot 3 limpers and big blind behind , you dont give buy in or reads on limpers so i"ll assume they are spewy [worst case scenario] It has been mentioned that if you shove it will represent a 50% pick up for your stack, even if u think that you"ll get called nearly 100% by a loose range for 1 or more of the limpers - 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q6s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K8o+,QTo+,JTo,T9o
its not ATC but u can shove the top 61% of your range profitably and T8o is in there , basically in this spot u can shove -
22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T4s+,95s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,53s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T8o+,97o+,87o,76o
alternative fold wait for btt and start pushing if folded to, your range on the button if both blinds are average callers [calling range - 55+,A2s+,KJs+,QJs,A8o+,KQo] then u could/can shove ATC for it to be correct +cEV , assuming villains call range is 15% [avg] then from the cut off 1st in your shove range drops dramatically to your top 22% - 22+,A3s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A8o+,KJo+,QJo,JTo and so on with more to act behind even with an M of 6 or less your shove range is not as wide as you think it would be to be +cEV,good american/euro mtt"ers especially know there ranges very well nowadays [dont fall behind,learn and adjust]
study up on your shove/call ranges from what position [how many players on your left to act] your stack/blinds/antes and try to build up a short stack push strategy according to how tight or loose the players behind are..Study any decent sng players thoughts on push/call ranges for when yourself or villains stacks are 20bb or less as imo the americans are miles ahead of european players in general in this area for sngs/mtts , europeans tend to call to light ;D
that last comment is from US based players not mine :)
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Firstly, I don"t like the limp/make up from the SB. You are setting yourself up to play with raggy cards out of position in a multi-way pot.... catch anything on the flop and you"re stuck..... and it seems that this is exactly what happened.
With 10xBB, and nobody showing any aggression preflop, I would prefer to shove here..... and if you don"t feel the right vibes for the shove, then fold. Don"t be fooled by the fact that you"re getting 11/1 to make up the blind.
As played (and without any other info on players) check/fold - you"ve no way of knowing if your top pair without a kicker is good. If someone bets and you have sufficient reads to put them on a steal with AK type hand, then shove to try and get to a HeadsUp showdown - you don"t want to end up in a multiway showdown here with such a marginal holding.
Shove or fold preflop though.
follow good advice imho
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Got all that then? According to our panel you should have shoved, folded or limped preflop & on the flop either shove, check-fold or check-jam. Glad we have cleared that up for you. Anyone else want our expert advice?
lol - true - imo shove or fold pre
as played shove flop
just for once i have to AGREE with this . but you should have waited for 6 3 of.
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Shoving is fine.
Completing is fine as long as you don"t stack off with just top pair. Deffo never shove flop
I think I prefer folding pre.