Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: LongshanksED on January 12, 2010, 14:59:47 PM
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Playing last night and as it"s was getting to shovefest time (300/600 blinds and average stack of 6-7k 7 handed final table) I pick up AJ suited diamonds. UTG and shove for 3.5k
player to my immediate left goes all in for their last 1k ( just lost a 5k pot on a flip)
round to button who calls what he thought was the 1k but when he was told it"s was 3.5k that he had to cover my bet too. He didn"t look happy about it as he didn"t realise there was already 2 players in the pot and wanted to take his 1k back but the table overruled him and said he had to call the full bet which he grudgingly did. I said that since he was mistaken surely he could take his bet back ( figured I must be in bad shape and one of them has a strong ace and other a pocket pair) but was told that the verbal call stands
player on my right held K5o ( that"s right) and the player mistakenly in the hand had 33. I was in better shape than I thought especially when it came down 446 with 2 diamonds but I couldn"t hit one of my over cards diamond or pair the board (turn was a 9)
But does the guy have to call the bet if he didn"t know what he was calling too?
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Pretty sure he is 100% committed to leaving the 1k out there but can fold for the other 2.5k.
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if he has announced call, he has to call the whole bet (your 3.5k)
either way, his 1k has crossed the line and cannot be retrieved, no matter what the outcome on the other 2.5k
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The strict rule is that they have to call the whole previous bet. Otherwise they have the opportunity to judge your reaction to their call and then change their mind. However, some TDs apply common sense where it is clear that the player wasn"t angle-shooting. I have seen the rule applied strictly in two APAT events. However, I have twice seen players allowed to take back calls in GUKPT MEs (and once saw a player allowed to take back his cards after he inexplicably threw them in the muck at the same time as putting his chips in to call). All the APAT & GUKPT events in question took place in Grosvenor casinos. I"m pretty sure I have also seen WSOP footage of someone allowed to take back their call chips and fold their hand after it was pointed out that there was a reraise (can"t remember who but I think it was a "name", which may have influenced the decision). The standard procedure in these situations is that the cheaper the buy-in, the more strictly and inflexibly the rules will be enforced. If you really want to see inflexibility, play in a pub league.
World Series of Poker Rules
1. Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can, on occasion, dictate that the technical interpretation of the rules be ignored in the interest of fairness. The floorperson"s decision is final. (Note, this rule used to be rule #31, but TDA members voted to move it to rule #1.)
http://www.gambling-poker.com/world_series_poker_rules.html
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Pretty sure he is 100% committed to leaving the 1k out there but can fold for the other 2.5k.
pretty sure it is this but rules do vary
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Pretty sure he is 100% committed to leaving the 1k out there but can fold for the other 2.5k.
pretty sure it is this but rules do vary
these
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Pretty sure he is 100% committed to leaving the 1k out there but can fold for the other 2.5k.
pretty sure it is this but rules do vary
don"t see how this can be so. When the action gets to him and he says "call".... surely he has called the bet that is upon him, which in this scenario is 3.5k.
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he has 2 call both bets
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Pretty sure he is 100% committed to leaving the 1k out there but can fold for the other 2.5k.
pretty sure it is this but rules do vary
don"t see how this can be so. When the action gets to him and he says "call".... surely he has called the bet that is upon him, which in this scenario is 3.5k.
my view point too, he has stated call, so he is calling the bet. otherwise he could say call then say " didn"t know a huge bet i was callin small bet" or words to that effect.
It is his fault for not concentrating
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I think I"m getting confused here.
what about this scenario
blinds are 200/400. UTG moves all in for 5K. fold round to guy in MP who says "raise to 1000" (having not heard the allin). The dealer then informs him that it is 5K to go so MP says he doesn"t want to raise or call anymore.
Surely this is the case where he has to leave his 1K in the pot and is not obliged to match the allin?
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once you say call you have 2 call end of story
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once you say call you have 2 call end of story
maybe but the OP doesn"t state that he says "call" only that he calls the bet (which could be tossing a 1k chip in)
so not end of story
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I think I"m getting confused here.
what about this scenario
blinds are 200/400. UTG moves all in for 5K. fold round to guy in MP who says "raise to 1000" (having not heard the allin). The dealer then informs him that it is 5K to go so MP says he doesn"t want to raise or call anymore.
Surely this is the case where he has to leave his 1K in the pot and is not obliged to match the allin?
So let"s say he knows about the 3.5k re-raise, but pretends not to. Then, when it gets to him he tosses in his 1000 chip to call and watches the 3.5k guy for a reaction..... if the guy looks confident, he can claim the mistake and save himself 2.5k... or the guy squirms, he can call the rest. This is just the same as string betting, but with a different angle.
A call is a call - and it has to be the value of the bet that is due when the action gets to him.
As for your alternative example - the raise to 1k is an impossible action, so the action cannot be completed. In the OP, a call can be completed, so should be done.
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I think I"m getting confused here.
what about this scenario
blinds are 200/400. UTG moves all in for 5K. fold round to guy in MP who says "raise to 1000" (having not heard the allin). The dealer then informs him that it is 5K to go so MP says he doesn"t want to raise or call anymore.
Surely this is the case where he has to leave his 1K in the pot and is not obliged to match the allin?
I think would be void as it is a invalid bet, so he would have the chance to revolke the bet.?
far from a expert though
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Hmm, good one, I"ve never had this at any games I"ve run.
If the player says "call" and throws the 1k chip in, then he/she"s forced to call the whole bet, meaning the full 3.5k, no question.
I think you"ve got to ask one question - if the player throws a chip into the pot is he/she automatically assumed to be calling, regardless of any verbal announcement ? Some TDs may, whereas others may not. If the assumption is a "call" then the player is liable for the full 3.5k. If the TD thinks a genuine mistake has been made (how the TD could make that assessment, I"m not sure) then I suppose the player may be allowed to fold but leave the 1k behind.
My own view is that the player should have been forced to pay the full 3.5k - if anything, it would have made the player pay more attention in future to what"s going on around him/her. An expensive lesson maybe, but a valuable one.
Or am I just too harsh...?
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An expensive lesson maybe, but a valuable one.
standard mantra for your home games Ian 8)
At least the player wouldn"t make the mistake again
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I had this exact situation in Gala Leeds recently. The culprit in this case was not forced to make up the difference but had to leave his incorrect call bet in.
Not saying it"s right but the ruling seemed to be based on the fact that people agreed it was a mistake and he wasn"t angle shooting.
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I had this exact situation in Gala Leeds recently. The culprit in this case was not forced to make up the difference but had to leave his incorrect call bet in.
Not saying it"s right but the ruling seemed to be based on the fact that people agreed it was a mistake and he wasn"t angle shooting.
I"ve seen this a number of times, and it seems fairest.
However, if they do this and they"re wearing and MP3 player, shades and a hoodie - then they should have to put in all their chips, their cards, stand up on their chair and shout "I"m an idiot" and be mocked.
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Happened to me a couple of years ago at Walsall. I was seated in seat 9 and was chatting to the guy in seat 10. I saw a guy in seat 4 call the BB bet but he was one of these people who announces raise, but actually puts the call in physically and then follows with the raise.
I only saw the call placed in and when I announced "Call" (with my 6-9 spades), I was made to match his full raise, leaving me seriously short-stacked. As it was, 2 spades flopped and I shoved and busted his aces !!
What annoys me is that on MANY occasions since, I have seen this happen and on EVERY occasion, they have been allowed to take the chips back.
I wish poker had standard rules........
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Devils advocate here.
What if he said I call the thousand ? (just from another point if view for conversation). Would/should he be allowed to take it back?
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Devils advocate here.
What if he said I call the thousand ? (just from another point if view for conversation). Would/should he be allowed to take it back?
pretty sure no-one would ever say that
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Devils advocate here.
What if he said I call the thousand ? (just from another point if view for conversation). Would/should he be allowed to take it back?
pretty sure no-one would ever say that
I call the thousand
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Is it not the case that as the bet was less than half of what the actual raise should have been, then he is allowed to take the bet back? I"m pretty sure that is what happens at Luton??
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I think I"m getting confused here.
what about this scenario
blinds are 200/400. UTG moves all in for 5K. fold round to guy in MP who says "raise to 1000" (having not heard the allin). The dealer then informs him that it is 5K to go so MP says he doesn"t want to raise or call anymore.
Surely this is the case where he has to leave his 1K in the pot and is not obliged to match the allin?
first of all heres my glass 00 the blinds are 300/600 not 2/4 hes allin for 3.5k not 5k glasses are a wonderful thing read it again
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Hmm, good one, I"ve never had this at any games I"ve run.
If the player says "call" and throws the 1k chip in, then he/she"s forced to call the whole bet, meaning the full 3.5k, no question.
I think you"ve got to ask one question - if the player throws a chip into the pot is he/she automatically assumed to be calling, regardless of any verbal announcement ? Some TDs may, whereas others may not. If the assumption is a "call" then the player is liable for the full 3.5k. If the TD thinks a genuine mistake has been made (how the TD could make that assessment, I"m not sure) then I suppose the player may be allowed to fold but leave the 1k behind.
My own view is that the player should have been forced to pay the full 3.5k - if anything, it would have made the player pay more attention in future to what"s going on around him/her. An expensive lesson maybe, but a valuable one.
Or am I just too harsh...?
not too harsh at all rules are rules spot on you young wippersnaper
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I think I"m getting confused here.
what about this scenario
blinds are 200/400. UTG moves all in for 5K. fold round to guy in MP who says "raise to 1000" (having not heard the allin). The dealer then informs him that it is 5K to go so MP says he doesn"t want to raise or call anymore.
Surely this is the case where he has to leave his 1K in the pot and is not obliged to match the allin?
first of all heres my glass 00 the blinds are 300/600 not 2/4 hes allin for 3.5k not 5k glasses are a wonderful thing read it again
LOL thanks for the advice. However I was asking for opinions on a different scenario.
The OP involved a scenario where there was a shove and an undershove which the player in question wanted to call (not aware of the open shove)
My example, involves a shove then the player in question wanting to make an opening raise (again, not aware of the open shove)
Read my post again and this should be obvious. I put different blinds and shove sizes to try and avoid confusion (I obviously failed with you though ;))
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yes you did sorry the word scenario comes to mind
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Devils advocate here.
What if he said I call the thousand ? (just from another point if view for conversation). Would/should he be allowed to take it back?
Just my 2 pence worth on an interesting thread...
The bet isn"t 1k it"s 3.5k. So he would be given an option of calling 3.5k or mucking.
The top and bottom of this matter is that the player to act should be aware of the play that is happening around him/her. If the play says call unaware of what is happening around him then thats just poor and he"ll have to put in the 3.5k IMO.
Paul.
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Devils advocate here.
What if he said I call the thousand ? (just from another point if view for conversation). Would/should he be allowed to take it back?
Just my 2 pence worth on an interesting thread...
The bet isn"t 1k it"s 3.5k. So he would be given an option of calling 3.5k or mucking.
The top and bottom of this matter is that the player to act should be aware of the play that is happening around him/her. If the play says call unaware of what is happening around him then thats just poor and he"ll have to put in the 3.5k IMO.
Paul.
^^exactly
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Devils advocate here.
What if he said I call the thousand ? (just from another point if view for conversation). Would/should he be allowed to take it back?
Just my 2 pence worth on an interesting thread...
The bet isn"t 1k it"s 3.5k. So he would be given an option of calling 3.5k or mucking.
The top and bottom of this matter is that the player to act should be aware of the play that is happening around him/her. If the play says call unaware of what is happening around him then thats just poor and he"ll have to put in the 3.5k IMO.
Paul.
^^exactly
well said heer heer