Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: shozboy1 on February 04, 2010, 21:44:24 PM
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How did I play this? Do I fold/call river?
PokerStars Game #39231857293: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/02/04 20:51:13 WET [2010/02/04 15:51:13 ET]
Table "Isabella X" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: udbrky ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: Waylanderl ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: 0hMyDog ($92.45 in chips)
Seat 4: shozboy ($59.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Nayk89 ($23 in chips)
Seat 6: Silent_Allen ($50.75 in chips)
Seat 7: ilushin1978 ($26.35 in chips)
Seat 9: MrPowell222 ($50.75 in chips)
0hMyDog: posts small blind $0.25
shozboy: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [9c 9d]
Nayk89: folds
Silent_Allen: folds
ilushin1978: folds
MrPowell222: raises $1.50 to $2
udbrky: folds
Waylanderl: folds
0hMyDog: folds
shozboy: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [3h 3d 5d]
shozboy: checks
MrPowell222: bets $3
shozboy: calls $3
*** TURN *** [3h 3d 5d] [Qd]
shozboy: checks
MrPowell222: bets $7.50
shozboy: calls $7.50
*** RIVER *** [3h 3d 5d Qd] [7c]
shozboy: checks
MrPowell222: bets $17
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too many nits at full ring 50NL. They rarely bluff the river. I fold. The only thing you realistically beat is a 3 barrell with AK.
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Your decision to check call the flop is ok.
I cannot understand your thinking of calling a pretty big bet on the turn with a view to folding the river when 7c hits.
It changes nothing from turn to river. If you thought you were ahead on the turn - then I think you must call the river .
I would have called the flop, but when an overcard hits, and the third diamond appears - you have to ask yourself what are you beating? So I fold the turn and wait for a better spot thus avoiding difficult situations.
A read on the villain would also be helpful .......
Jas
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Yea I think I fold turn a lot of the time unless villain has a history of barreling. If you call turn, call river.
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too many posts on here that lack information on villain (and hero as well) - you need reads/stats on the opposition to play poker succesfully
as played you need to make your decision on the turn - call turn means you should call river.
I don"t play much full ring anymore but it is far nittier than 6max
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sorry, this was one of the 1st hands I played at the table. Therefore no reads on the villain. So I just went with a default read of what the average guy would do. For the record, I"ve purposely left out my river decision. I didn;t want to post if I"d folded or called.
My thinking was obviously I"m never folding to a flop cbet. His range for cbet is way too wide and its a very good flop for a pair of 9s.
The turn completes the flush draw and is a queen. He bet reasonably big again. I figured if he had a flush, given my show of weakness, he wouldn"t bet so big with a flush because there;s no value in that. Also, if he had a queen he had to worry about me having a flush. So again, it doesn"t make sense for him to bet this big even with a queen.
I did infact call the river as I felt the 7c changes nothing. Again he bets biggish. I"ve shown no interest at all, and therefore my feeling was he was trying to get a better hand to fold with bigger bets. I called and he flipped over AKo so I took it down.
The reason I"m posting though is to ask whether people think my reasoning was sound or abit dodgy
perhaps in hindsight I should"ve folded turn to a bet given I have no reads on this guy? I do however, as opposed to someone else who posted, find the play is more aggressive in 25/50 then 10/25. Alot more 3betting and double/triple barrelling
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Once u check the river - this guy is v/betting a lot of hands tht have 9"s beat. With no info I think its a fold.
Edit: On the turn obv
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Once you have decided to call on the turn, you have already made your decision to call on the river - that 7 changed nothing, so if you thing you were ahead on the turn, you must still be ahead.
Have to say though, I"m not sure why you called on the turn. TBH, I don"t really like the call on the flop either - I"m usually raising here to find out where my medium pair stands.
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I hate r/f"n flop as well btw. I think peeling on the flop and re-evaluating turn is best option against an opponent with no reads
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Wow. Some of the comments on here scare me
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nobody else hate the call before the flop??!! surely you have to raise here. if not before the flop then on the flop, you just havent defined your hand at any point.
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I dont hate the call pre flop. yes he is oop, but if he gets repoped then he has to either Jam or fold and obviously with over 100bbs most of the time you are either slightly in front or way way behind. So taking a flop is not so bad.
check call the flop is also ok, but i think actually your big mistake was the way you played the turn. by check calling the turn, you have not got controll of the pot, or defined your opponents had. Instead, try leading the turn for about $5, if opponent calls then at least you get to see the river cheaper than check calling his 2nd barrel. And if he raises you then its very possible you are beat. And i know some here will say that this is a donk lead, but jhonny chann has perfected this turn play and it works well in situations like this. It is a far better play than check calling. Here is why.....
First of all it is a great way to define opponents hand. If opponent has AK, now he will surely fold and you are not going to get bluffed at the river.
you may even get hands that you are losing against to lay it down here, like 10s or jacks (although somtimes unlikley), it will knock him off guard and slow him down however when the Q comes, and you effectivly get to see the river cheaper than with check calling his bet.
He may also let you check down the river with many hands and you get to see what hand he had. Now if you lead the turn and he raises you. Then easy fold, and you are not going to make a crying call on the river. So by actually betting the turn you achive many things, Information, saving money when you are losing ( because you have bet $5 instead of check calling $7.5) and slowing opponent down. if you can slow the opponent down, save money at the same time and see the river cheaper, then you have played the hand well IMO.
This is a move that Jhonny chann/phill hellmuth does all the time, check call the flop with a average hand that may or may not be best, and then leading the turn for a smaller bet than what the opponent would have done if he does fire two bullets.
This hand is a classic example of the reasons why i am forever saying that sitting with only 100 BBs at a cash table is never deep enough for proper poker after the flop. if you are check calling his turn bet, than you have to check call his river bet because the 7 changes nothing. and you are now in danger of getting stacked or crippled, but with 200BBs then you have more chance of getting away from it.
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george, could you elaborate. I"m sure I didn"t play this hand optimally given all the feedback. What are your views?
Perhaps I should"ve led the turn, and folded to a raise on the turn. Also puts the other guy off balance and may allow me to get free/cheaper showdown.
My thinking at the time of check/calling was to get to showdown without being raised off the hand. I felt on this board my 99 had a fair chance of winning
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george, could you elaborate. I"m sure I didn"t play this hand optimally given all the feedback. What are your views?
Perhaps I should"ve led the turn, and folded to a raise on the turn. Also puts the other guy off balance and may allow me to get free/cheaper showdown.
My thinking at the time of check/calling was to get to showdown without being raised off the hand. I felt on this board my 99 had a fair chance of winning
Shoz I think you played the hand fine. Check calling 3 streets here is probably optimal. I don"t play much cash but raising the flop "to find out where you are" only forces better hands to call or worse hands to fold. If your opponent is capable he may 4 bet AK or worse and bluff you off the best hand. He may even turn 77 or 88 into a bluff on the flop.
Also saying things like "if you call the turn you have to call river" is just plain wrong. This is pokers and a 4 street game. Saying the 7 changed nothing so you have to call river is incorrect. If villian has Aces he could just as easily play the hand the same way. You should call turn and probs call river however if you feel that your opponent isn"t capable of bluffing here then a fold is fine.
Agree with previous poster also that you need to talk about your tendencies and opponents tendencies when you post a hand up.
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thanks
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nobody else hate the call before the flop??!! surely you have to raise here. if not before the flop then on the flop, you just havent defined your hand at any point.
Hey Mark, how far would you go with 99 preflop? 4bet, 5bet.... or perhaps a 6bet, then fold?? Will never forget that one! ;D
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Preflop call is fine, without reads 3 betting would be insane and essentially a 3 bet bluff, do this with 72o don"t waste 99.
Check call flop is ok too, but you must do so with a plan as to what will happen later in the hand.
Don"t play big pots with weak hands read dependant obviously. If, as happened to be the case, villain is known to be aggro and liable to triple barrell bluff, its just wrong to raise at any point, you will either, deter him from putting monies in bad when our hand is good, or inflate the pot when our hand is not good. Playing these types is high variance and sometimes you"ll call down light and lose. Folding less is how we profit against this type.
As played and unsure as to villains tendancies, guess calling the turn and river is a losing play imho.
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nobody else hate the call before the flop??!! surely you have to raise here. if not before the flop then on the flop, you just havent defined your hand at any point.
Defined your hand to who?
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Also saying things like "if you call the turn you have to call river" is just plain wrong. This is pokers and a 4 street game. Saying the 7 changed nothing so you have to call river is incorrect. If villian has Aces he could just as easily play the hand the same way. You should call turn and probs call river however if you feel that your opponent isn"t capable of bluffing here then a fold is fine.
George, my point here is that if you think 99 is likely to be ahead when you call the bet on the turn, the 7 on the river is unlikely to have improved the other guy"s hand, therefore it would be subsequently incorrect to fold 99 to a river bet.
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The way the hand was played, it would be a mistake to fold river once he has check called the turn (in a cash game anyway). The river was a brick and laying it down is now a mistake IMO. people do, and will fire 3 bullets with AK and pos, so your hand is a decant bluff catcher. Somtimes you will be paying off AA however.
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nobody else hate the call before the flop??!! surely you have to raise here. if not before the flop then on the flop, you just havent defined your hand at any point.
Hey Mark, how far would you go with 99 preflop? 4bet, 5bet.... or perhaps a 6bet, then fold?? Will never forget that one! ;D
what can i say i plain don"t trust you! ;D
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nobody else hate the call before the flop??!! surely you have to raise here. if not before the flop then on the flop, you just havent defined your hand at any point.
Defined your hand to who?
To yourself..... it just seems to me that throughout the hand it is all guesswork, you have no idea where you are in the hand.
Then again im not the best cash player! ;D
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Unless you have either the big pairs or stone cold nothing, you are never really 100% sure where you are at in most poker hands, i would never suggest anyone to reraise pre flop with 99s or the like (even oop), to just find out where you are at in a hand, you will get worse hands to fold sure ,but better hands to shove on you, and also the fact that you may be getting semi bluffed by AK/AQ a large % of time with stacks of only 100 BBS you are going to be flipping but at the same time giving them the maximum chance to see all 5 cards.
Some conditions it is sutiable for, for example if calling a raise would be putting 25% of you stack on the line then he should shove etc. But in this situation, i think a call pre flop is fine IMO. I dont really like to play a big pot in a margional situation.