Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: BOINGBLITZ on February 24, 2010, 13:01:10 PM
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Just catching up on old DVD"S and saw Andy Greekfish get slated for twice asking to see someone"s cards at the showdown. Then Phil Laak did the same to Simon Zach and everyone got uppity about it.
I have been attacked myself at the Champion Of Champions event and had to call the floor to force one guy to show.
My point is.....why do people think that this is bad form to do this ?
If you think someone was at it then why SHOULDN"T you ask to see their hand ?
Would appreciate your opinions here guys......
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i myself dont think its bad form too be asked ,and why shouldnt u ask it can affect your whole thinking about ,id rather be shown a bluff myself,fair play too the guy or girl bluffing xx
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Rubs salt in the wounds....just let them muck and move on to next hand. Pretty low in general.
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if asked to show then tuff u ave to show.... if ur prepared to bluff and then get caught so be it... nothing low about it in the slightest
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It is considered bad etiquete as you"ve won the pot so what the cards were are really irrelevant but you (or anyone else at the table for that matter) has the right to ask.
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It"s low to ask.
If asked u have to show.
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If I"m called, I table my hand..job done.
If I"m calling your hand, muck it or table it, I don"t care.
I reserve the right to muck my hand when you show me a winner. I paid to see your cards, you didn"t pay to see mine.
If you ask to see another players hand, he just might have a winner and his hand is live again. Be warned.
I see no reason to see someone else"s hand UNLESS I suspect collusion (which is the only reason the rule was invented).
With tourneys and APAT especially, I don"t see this as being necessary.
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It is considered bad etiquete as you"ve won the pot so what the cards were are really irrelevant but you (or anyone else at the table for that matter) has the right to ask.
With the caveat that their reason should be that they suspect collusion. Asking for information gathering purposes should be discouraged with a kick in the nuts.
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With the caveat that their reason should be that they suspect collusion. Asking for information gathering purposes should be discouraged with a kick in the nuts.
Which is why its bad etiquette, if asking I always say "Can I see the cheats cards please?" ;D
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Have to laugh when people start talking about etiquette, as if we are participating in a Georgian society event, instead of a feckin poker tournament.
Don"t usually do it but, just before the end of Day 1 at the European event in Luton, I asked to see a player"s cards after one particular hand. He had been raising like a maniac for the previous six hours and had got away with collecting numerous pots without being called, so his cards hadn"t been seen. When I called him in this hand, I asked to see his cards, really just to confirm what I already strongly suspected, ie that he had been raising with junk. Another player, who had just joined the table, objected quite vociferously and we exchanged a few ill-chosen words. I didn"t know this player but have since discovered that he is very well known on Blonde and elsewhere. Anyway the point is that he knew nothing of the history of the table but was happy to stick his beak in where it wasn"t wanted and quote "etiquette". Etiquette Schmetiquette! I had my reasons, which he knew nothing about, and they were nothing to do with suspecting cheating.
Not that I"m one to bear a grudge or anything!
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Strongly disagree MintTrav. Think etiquette is a fairly essential thing to be aware of in a game where the laws have not been standardised.
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Have to laugh when people start talking about etiquette, as if we are participating in a Georgian society event, instead of a feckin poker tournament.
Generally speaking I maybe slightly agree but in this case its very valid imo.
The rule is there as stated to stop collusion, not for collecting information, so by asking to see you are flat out accusing him of collusion.
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Have to laugh when people start talking about etiquette, as if we are participating in a Georgian society event, instead of a feckin poker tournament.
Generally speaking I maybe slightly agree but in this case its very valid imo.
The rule is there as stated to stop collusion, not for collecting information, so by asking to see you are flat out accusing him of collusion.
Eh? Who was he colluding with - himself? He certainly didn"t take in the way you are suggesting.
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cards go to showdown wether i called or was called if i want to see em then see em i will its not poor anything if i feel i need info ala mint trav etc im not infering collusion
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So u r going against etiquette to gain info and improve ur chanced of winning?
Can I slow-roll u to put u on tilt and increase my chances of winning?
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Have to laugh when people start talking about etiquette, as if we are participating in a Georgian society event, instead of a feckin poker tournament.
Generally speaking I maybe slightly agree but in this case its very valid imo.
The rule is there as stated to stop collusion, not for collecting information, so by asking to see you are flat out accusing him of collusion.
Eh? Who was he colluding with - himself? He certainly didn"t take in the way you are suggesting.
By asking to see his cards you accuse him of colluding. Simple as that. In your case someone else then has a moan (heaven forbit a poker player moaning over nothing) even though they werent affected by your action. Nowt queer as folk eh
I was just pointing out that strictly speaking hes right. Possibly if he had explained why it was bad etiquette that might have helped too as most people just think it is cos they got moaned at for doing it. Its like slowrolling imo its not against the rules to do it but once you understand it most people dont do it to other people.
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dont think there"s anything wrong with asking to see cards once in a while - and if it puts the other guy on tilt, even better...... just remember that once you"ve asked though, the opportunity is always there for he (and others) to ask you to show cards out of spite.
I don"t think it"s like slowrolling at all. It"s just a part of the game that we rarely use.
It"s not illegal - it"s just an opportunity to improve our edge. John"s example above is exactly the sort of occasion where I would ask for a peek.
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dont think there"s anything wrong with asking to see cards once in a while - and if it puts the other guy on tilt, even better...... just remember that once you"ve asked though, the opportunity is always there for he (and others) to ask you to show cards out of spite.
I don"t think it"s like slowrolling at all. It"s just a part of the game that we rarely use.
It"s not illegal - it"s just an opportunity to improve our edge. John"s example above is exactly the sort of occasion where I would ask for a peek.
Surely slowrolling is not illegal and improves our edge.................
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So does nobody who says it"s bad etiquette look at Hand History online to see what other people call your bets with? By looking at HH, am I accusing these people of collusion? The information is given freely by the online poker sites. Should information that you obtain from this not be used to help improve your chances of winning? ???
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Checking hand histories is discreet. If sum1 makes a huge bet in the late stages of a tourney w/ A high and gets called, it"s pretty d*cky to not just let them muck rather than rubbing salt in the wounds.
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Strongly disagree MintTrav. Think etiquette is a fairly essential thing to be aware of in a game where the laws have not been standardised.
Would you consider it bad etiquette to muck your hand when called, its from this point on that, asking to see what you paid to see becomes an issue. Its a kind of " its bad etiquette to pull someone for bad etiquette" scenario.
By the way, what came first, the Chicken or the Egg? :P
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Def dnt consider it bad etiquette to muck your hand wen called if u have no show-down value. What does it achieve tabling 7-high. Then its just rubbing salt in the wounds to ask to see it.
To be honest Im surprised so many ppl r saying its ok. I would have thought it went against the "apat spirit." Maybe Im just against it cos Im usually the one with 8 high that just wants to muck and move on.
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If sum1 makes a huge bet in the late stages of a tourney w/ A high and gets called, it"s pretty d*cky to not just let them muck rather than rubbing salt in the wounds.
What about the guy who doesn"t get called and then shows his bluff? I understand the strategic advantages of this, but surely it is a much worse example of rubbing salt in the wounds.
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Also pretty dicky, and just silly for the most part as its giving away free information. Doesnt justify getting ppl to turn over hands they want to muck.
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wats the muck woop woop just set him allin woop woop if he calls u see his 7 high
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Def dnt consider it bad etiquette to muck your hand wen called if u have no show-down value. What does it achieve tabling 7-high. Then its just rubbing salt in the wounds to ask to see it.
To be honest Im surprised so many ppl r saying its ok. I would have thought it went against the "apat spirit." Maybe Im just against it cos Im usually the one with 8 high that just wants to muck and move on.
This
No its not against the rules, but neither is pulling your shirt over your head and doing a lap of honour!!! We don"t do it because its rude and we are never rude to people who give us money!
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If you ask to see another players hand, he just might have a winner and his hand is live again. Be warned.
and this!
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did a long response to this on my lunch hour at work and then the net went down so couldn"t post
This is my opinion and not the letter of the law, but i think asking for players to show when someone has mucked their hand and giving you the pot is bad form/poor etiquette.
i am with Marty on this one and requests to see my cards when i have mucked have happened more than once when playing APAT events and i am not a big fan when people keep requesting it.
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There"s an idea circulating around various forums (at least that I"ve read) that the rules should be changed so that AT SHOWDOWN ALL cards MUST be turned over.
In fact, I"ve seen this enforced at a couple of casinos in the UK (on the APAT trail). No mucking about, everyone table your hand and the dealer pushes the pot and moves on.
No arguments about who shows first, asking to see those cards etc....bam, problem solved!
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totally agree with the last post,
but at the moment I would not ask to see the others hand but if they asked to see mine I"m ok with that , part of the game!! just show and get on with it, THAT"s POKER lol ;)
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very interesting discussion , not sure where i stand on it but im guessing if ive called you ive paid to see your cards then I guess its only right to show them.
somebody mentioned hand checking hand histories online which is something i regularly do , i wont mention it to the other players unless they try to pass off that they had something other than they had. Is that wrong??
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I thought there was an APAT rule on this saying that all cards must be shown at showdown.
Ian - where are you???
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very interesting discussion , not sure where i stand on it but im guessing if ive called you ive paid to see your cards then I guess its only right to show them.
Although I used this expression, it"s actually misleading. What I"ve done is paid to see if my hand beats the Villains.
If the villain chooses not to show me his cards and surrender the pot, I"m not bothered about what he had.
That said, I"m of the opinion, as I posted before, that all cards should be turned over at showdown. I didn"t before I started live poker but once you get involved in a few, "Show first"; "No, you first" arguments that hold up everything for minutes on end, you soon change your mind.
Of course, I"m old and don"t have that much time left. :)
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I thought there was an APAT rule on this saying that all cards must be shown at showdown.
Ian - where are you???
You could be right but I think it"s that you have to show both cards to win the pot.
Come to think of it, didn"t there used to be a list of rules on the old site?
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I think now is a good time to post this old chestnut:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyE
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All cards will be turned face up once a player is all in and all action is complete.
And, "PRESTO"...there is something in the RULES (http://www.apat.com/index.php/rules/) but it only covers being all-in.
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Thought this one might provoke some debate !!
I agree that the rules should be changed so that BOTH players MUST show BOTH cards when a hand goes to showdown.
As for the talk about if it is right or wrong, well if I call the floor and he said it is right, how can it be wrong ??!!
I had a clock called on me at the GUKPT Blackpool after THIRTY SECONDS of thinking and that was by a so-called "Pro" player ......... now THAT should not have been allowed......IMO.
But when I ask to see a players cards it is for the info only and I do not agree at all that it is bad form to do so.
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I didn"t before I started live poker but once you get involved in a few, "Show first"; "No, you first" arguments that hold up everything for minutes on end, you soon change your mind.
Totally agree with you on this.
These arguments simply shouldn"t happen if you have a strong dealer who controls the action and showdown properly. There is a set order to showdown but I so rarely see Dealers (or players) enforce it properly.
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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/poker-etiquette-mucking-during-showdown-703573/
Pretty much all covered here in many ways from many different angles. If u move me in with 7 high and I call u with middle pair BoingBlitz, do u not think it wud b bad form of me to say, "No...I want to see that hand." Thats just embarassing sum1 and rubbing salt in the wounds. U already know they were betting fairly light. Just rake the chips and move on to the next hand imo.
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given the varying opinions on this thread by experienced players who i presume have put some thought into their posts Id hate to see this argument happen live when emotions were running high.
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Live it doesn"t happen very often that someone asks to see the hand precisely because most players know it"s considered bad form. If they do ask, it"s up to the house rules.
I"ve seen some d-bag ask, the dealer turn over the hand only to find out that the mucking player had mis-read their hand and it was a winner.
Pot shipped to mucker and the d-bag "asker" went nuts. Cue security being called and d-bag being 86"d. Serves him right.
As I"ve mentioned before, the INTENTION behind the rule (originally) was to ensure that there was no collusion. Since then it"s been watered down so that people ask for information purposes which is a new phenomenon.
I blame the interwebz. :)
ALL HANDS OVER AT SHOWDOWN PLEASE...start the poll for adding this to the APAT Rules.
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ALL HANDS OVER AT SHOWDOWN PLEASE...start the poll for adding this to the APAT Rules.
+1
this would make the game a lot faster and stop people arguing about bad etiquette
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Agree with Paulie.....lets make this an APAT rule.
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I actually think it shud b a rule tht players r allowed to muck if they want :) I dnt wana have to auto-show down my entire river-betting range wen I am called.
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Agree with Paulie.....lets make this an APAT rule.
Why? You can do it anyway within the rules, it is just practiced little
It is very bad form to do this, people know this, still do it (and think its clever!)
Shows a lack of class IMO just like slowrolling and doing a monkey dance when you river suckout.
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let it go now eh ffs
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way i approach it is like this:
I bet my busted 4 hi flush draw on the river and get called. I announce "you are good" and muck, effectively awarding you the pot - i"d be pretty fed up if someone then went on to ask to see my cards. Yeah by strict letter of the law you can see them but it is generally considered to be bad etiquette and i wouldn"t do it to someone else. If you call and want to know what someone has, wait for him to announce his hand as he is first to speak at showdown.
I am not in favour of changing showdown rules and there are certainly easier ways of collusion than getting all the way to showdown before mucking your hand, you can easily chipdump by investing a high % of your stack before folding.
if people want to constantly insist on seeing mucked cards the game is not likely to flow well.
as a side note - i hate it when people reveal 1 card to try and take a pot and take ages before revealing the second one.
I"d think people would be more trusting and observe etiquette/good practice in APAT events due to their welcoming nature , but seems not to be the case in comparison to other events i play.
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The only time you should be able to ask to see a persons hand is if there is a suspicion of chip dumping. Asking for any other reason other than that just slows the game down and make the bluffer embarrassed enough that they won"t try something similar (ie, do not tap the glass)
Somebody mentioned earlier on that they wanted to see a persons hand to know what they were playing, surely you should be able to use the information gained from him mucking, together with the previous betting patterns and board texture to be able to come to a fairly reliable conclusion on this anyway?
As for a rule where all hands have to be turned over at showdown, that is just plain ridiculous, if I call somebody down with bottom pair and am shown the nuts then why should I have to turn my hand up and let them know I"m calling down light?
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Dean...you say "I am not in favour of changing showdown rules".......so why get upset if someone asks to see ?
That IS THE RULE !
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It IS also frowned upon.
There is no need to change the rules as ppl have the right if suspicious of collusion so this rule protects from it. It is not there to gather info.
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I prefer "show & take", especially if I have bet light, but it"s because I don"t want to give information, not because of embarrassment. Marty - I don"t understand why you are so embarrassed. If you don"t think your bet was a bad play, why are you embarrassed by it? If you made a bad call of my bet, you may be embarrassed about your play and wish to muck but if you bet a busted flush draw because you believed it to be the correct play, why are you such a sensitive soul about it? BTW, bombing the thread with the same post doesn"t win the argument.
doing a monkey dance when you river suckout.
A real example of poor behaviour - people who act like they have outplayed you when they get lucky. Goes along with shouting for cards you don"t deserve or celebrating when someone else has been knocked out.
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Embarass is undoubtedly the wrong word. My point is that the rule was not made for you to "gain info" so its bad etiquette to use it as such. I am hugely surprised this does not fit in the apat ethos which ppl pride themselves on (rightly so). If ur gng to do it and think thr is nothing wrong with it, keep doing it...but dnt b surprised wen ppl get pissed off at u and go all out for slow-roll based vengence :)
The facts are:
1-it is within the rules
2-the rule was designed to stop collusion
3-it is highly frowned upon to do for other reasons
Edit: also - I"m not trying to "win an argument." Im actually trying to inform you of what the general thoughts are about the etiquette in this situation. U of course r free to take it or leave it, and judging by your posts, Im assuming you will leave it.
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Er, read it again - I said I prefer Show & Take.
Anyway, no need for us all to try to reinvent the wheel. It"s all explained here how things should work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ
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Dean...you say "I am not in favour of changing showdown rules".......so why get upset if someone asks to see ?
That IS THE RULE !
people are talking about introducing an APAT rule where all all cards have to be turned over at showdown regardless, that was the rule change i was referring to and i oppose it.
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Er, read it again - I said I prefer Show & Take.
Anyway, no need for us all to try to reinvent the wheel. It"s all explained here how things should work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ
so according to this video if someout bets and you call on the river if they then muck their hand you dont have to show yours i think this is better rather having to show your hand to win the pot if the other person has mucked their hand because that is one of my pet hates i call someone down to see if they 3 barrelled with air then they muck and ask to see my cards
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generally in the UK you have to table your hand (both cards) to take a pot even if the other guy mucks. They changed this in the recent Stars UKIPT i played in where they stated you didn"t have to show your hand to claim the pot if the other guy mucks.
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Embarass is undoubtedly the wrong word. My point is that the rule was not made for you to "gain info" so its bad etiquette to use it as such. I am hugely surprised this does not fit in the apat ethos which ppl pride themselves on (rightly so). If ur gng to do it and think thr is nothing wrong with it, keep doing it...but dnt b surprised wen ppl get pissed off at u and go all out for slow-roll based vengence :)
The facts are:
1-it is within the rules
2-the rule was designed to stop collusion
3-it is highly frowned upon to do for other reasons
Edit: also - I"m not trying to "win an argument." Im actually trying to inform you of what the general thoughts are about the etiquette in this situation. U of course r free to take it or leave it, and judging by your posts, Im assuming you will leave it.
For clarification, a quick run through of the APAT tournament rules has nothing on asking for cards to be shown. The only reference to turning hands over is when a player is all-in.
In addition, you must show both cards to take the pot.
As such, there is no confirmation that asking is either inside or outside of the rules.
I would expect players to treat each other with respect (in the APAT spirit) and refrain from asking but I realise that there are some players who don"t agree with that.
So, either we have a rule that all cards are shown at any showdown regardless or, if that"s not palatable, a rule that says you CAN"T ask to see UNLESS you suspect collusion (the purpose of the rule). If that"s the case, you should be able to justify to the floor/TD why you think the player was colluding and with whom.
I just re-read the OP and it doesn"t specifically mention APAT, it was more of a general question, so, perhaps, we"ve drifted from the topic at hand.
In which case, my bad! ;)
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so according to this video if someout bets and you call on the river if they then muck their hand you dont have to show yours i think this is better rather having to show your hand to win the pot if the other person has mucked their hand because that is one of my pet hates i call someone down to see if they 3 barrelled with air then they muck and ask to see my cards
This^^^
Dealers in most casinos will want to see a hand to pass the pot even if you hold the only remaining live hand, and I see how the collusion element comes into it, but, it might not be so irritating if you could just claim the pot without having to show in this spot.
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Yea it def got a teeny bit derailed but i def think its important.
"rule that says you CAN"T ask to see UNLESS you suspect collusion (the purpose of the rule). If that"s the case, you should be able to justify to the floor/TD why you think the player was colluding and with whom."
I think tht would be a really good addition to APAT rules. Wud b good to have written confirmation.
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Just want to point out first that i never ask to see people cards
however imo if i have called somebodies bet on the river then they should show their cards beause "i have called to see their cards" but if somebody has called my raise and i show the winning hand then i think it is pretty poor to ask to see their cards.
but like i said i never ask because it usually just slows the game up.
On another point i know that the TD in swanea has ruled if it goes check check on the river then both hands need to be shown even if you want to muck them, dont know why so it could be a funny weekend in swansea
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however imo if i have called somebodies bet on the river then they should show their cards beause "i have called to see their cards" but if somebody has called my raise and i show the winning hand then i think it is pretty poor to ask to see their cards.
I mentioned this elsewhere but strictly, you didn"t "call to see their cards". You called because you thought your hand was better than theirs. If they muck they"ve surrendered and you KNOW your hand was better than theirs.
Asking to gain information isn"t the purpose of the idea that anyone can ask to see a hand.
If I"m shown a winning hand when I call and choose to muck my hand and someone asks to see my hand they"ll get the response.."Why, do you think I"m cheating?".
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however imo if i have called somebodies bet on the river then they should show their cards beause "i have called to see their cards" but if somebody has called my raise and i show the winning hand then i think it is pretty poor to ask to see their cards.
I mentioned this elsewhere but strictly, you didn"t "call to see their cards". You called because you thought your hand was better than theirs. If they muck they"ve surrendered and you KNOW your hand was better than theirs.
Asking to gain information isn"t the purpose of the idea that anyone can ask to see a hand.
If I"m shown a winning hand when I call and choose to muck my hand and someone asks to see my hand they"ll get the response.."Why, do you think I"m cheating?".
I wouldnt ask to see if the winning hand has been shown has been shown and as i said earlier it is good to know if someone three barrelled with air or if they just bluffed with a draw which you dont get to see if they muck their hand before you have shown your hand after you have called their bet
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as i said earlier it is good to know if someone three barrelled with air or if they just bluffed with a draw which you dont get to see if they muck their hand before you have shown your hand after you have called their bet
Of course you get it...they mucked. How much more do you need?
I repeat...Asking to gain information isn"t the purpose of the idea that anyone can ask to see a hand. The reason for it was to allow for collusion to be pointed out.
The only information, IMO, you are allowed, is...DO I GET THE POT?
Anyway, it doesn"t happen much at APAT events...opinions differ and I doubt anyone will change any minds here.
Best draw this thing to a close....
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Checking hand histories is discreet. If sum1 makes a huge bet in the late stages of a tourney w/ A high and gets called, it"s pretty d*cky to not just let them muck rather than rubbing salt in the wounds.
I"d let them muck their cards, and make sure they"re properly mucked, touching the muck, in the muck, gone forever, never to be seen again, well and truly mucked - and then I"ll turn my hand over. Wouldn"t want them to be able to retrieve the winning hand.
;)
You"re not still trying the old "Bluff Call" move are you Daniel?
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As this seems to be a lively thread can I ask views on the same situation but the players shows his hand to the guy next to him before mucking.
I had this situation once and did ask to see his cards on the basis of the "show one show all" rule (He was doing this regularly). Neither I or the other guy wanted to make a fuss about it but the dealer was new and didn"t think I had the right to see the cards. Everyone else at the table had an opinion and it all got quite amusing.
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That"s an easy one...if he shows one person, everyone can see.
End of.
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That"s an easy one...if he shows one person, everyone can see.
End of.
I know that - but people seem to get upset if you ask.
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Unfortunately, sometimes the fish have to be educated...but it"s not your job.
The dealer should know and enforce the rule. If he doesn"t, I"m calling the floor and get him to explain it to the pair.
If it persists, I"m asking for a table change (if cash) and talking to the shift supervisor/room manager away from the table about it.
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I don"t ask to see - not good form.
And I"m usually to relieved to have won I don"t care what he had.
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Can I have the 2010 prize for best thread please ??!!
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I have no shame in asking to see your cards.
If I am sat at your table, and you are constantly raising, or overbetting flops to take down a hand, I am wondering what are you doing it with. If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board, I am going to ask to see the cards.. Its information.. It is also a way of curtailing the serial raiser if he has just had to show a load of rubbish.. If there isn"t an obvious serial raiser, I will not be asking to see cards.
None of my reason for asking to see is anything to do with collusion.
In a similar situation, if I have taken a risk to call down a serial raiser, and I call after the river, too many times, serial raiser wants to see my cards first. He aint gonna see them first. If it is just a std player, and I think I am good, I will show first and let him muck.
It all depends how you are playing against me. I MAY actually be just taking one for the table if I have chips...
Carl.
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I have no shame in asking to see your cards.
If I am sat at your table, and you are constantly raising, or overbetting flops to take down a hand, I am wondering what are you doing it with. If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board, I am going to ask to see the cards.. Its information.. It is also a way of curtailing the serial raiser if he has just had to show a load of rubbish.. If there isn"t an obvious serial raiser, I will not be asking to see cards.
None of my reason for asking to see is anything to do with collusion.
In a similar situation, if I have taken a risk to call down a serial raiser, and I call after the river, too many times, serial raiser wants to see my cards first. He aint gonna see them first. If it is just a std player, and I think I am good, I will show first and let him muck.
It all depends how you are playing against me. I MAY actually be just taking one for the table if I have chips...
Carl.
agree with most of this however if i wasnt the person that called the serial raiser down then i wouldnt ask to see their cards because i was not involved in the pot but i can see where you are coming from
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You aren"t allowed to ask to see the cards if you weren"t in the hand anyway
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You aren"t allowed to ask to see the cards if you weren"t in the hand anyway
If you were dealt in, you can ask...
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Can I have the 2010 prize for best thread please ??!!
leave ittttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
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Shows a lack of class IMO just like slowrolling and doing a monkey dance when you river suckout.
However galloping around the table whilst slapping your arse is completely acceptable imo.
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Shows a lack of class IMO just like slowrolling and doing a monkey dance when you river suckout.
However galloping around the table whilst slapping your **** is completely acceptable imo.
Saw this on the FT o the Aussie Millions last night. Win an all-in, jumping and screaming, woop woop woop... bad bad bad...
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Shows a lack of class IMO just like slowrolling and doing a monkey dance when you river suckout.
However galloping around the table whilst slapping your **** is completely acceptable imo.
Saw this on the FT o the Aussie Millions last night. Win an all-in, jumping and screaming, woop woop woop... bad bad bad...
Nah eck is cheekily referring to me doing it against the mole at an event in Ireland, however the mole is a mate of mine and we have an agreement ;)
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You aren"t allowed to ask to see the cards if you weren"t in the hand anyway
If you were dealt in, you can ask...
Really??...Not heard of this before, that doesn"t seem right to me. But as you stated some fish need educating. ;)
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in the hand means being dealt in the hand, not necessarily the guy still in at showdown.
think about it - 2 people to the river and guy mucks his called hand, if asking to see a mucked hand is a rule designed to prevent collusion and the only person that could ask was the guy benefitting from the perceived collusion it wouldn"t be a great deterrent. DUCY?
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I"m surprised nobody has brought up this hand... http://www.pokernews.com/news/2009/09/where-is-the-gamesmanship-a-controversial-hand-7196.htm
There"s a video somewhere too with german commentary I think.
I"d generally just take the pot if my call is met with hands going into the muck and I"m guity of calling and declaring my hand too quickly sometimes for fear of slow-rolling, but there are circumstances where the table bully may have got a pot down to heads up and been called on the river where I can see a reason for asking him to table his hand when called... even if I"ve folded earlier in the hand...
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DUCY?
Stop that!
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I understood that the bettor was saying (by making a bet) that my hand is the best. The caller is saying " No mine is" and has to show the hand to prove this. The bettor can then show their cards to prove they were right in the first place or muck them. They do not have to show the cards unless collusion is suspected.
The caller then has to justify their belief of collusion.
Everyone who plays poker will say that it is a game of skill and not luck. The main reason for this being true, is because of the "bluff" - the best players in the world are probably the best bluffers.
Any rule that forces all hands to be turned over at any showdown I believe undermines the "bluff", and the statement that poker is a game of skill.
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Everyone who plays poker will say that it is a game of skill and not luck. The main reason for this being true, is because of the "bluff" - the best players in the world are probably the best bluffers.
Any rule that forces all hands to be turned over at any showdown I believe undermines the "bluff", and the statement that poker is a game of skill.
Bluffing is fine and to be encouraged but is not relevant to this discussion.
If you are called..the "bluff" is gone regardless. I"m not suggesting that all hands be shown whenever a pot is won. just when a river bet is called.
It"s called "SHOWDOWN" for a reason.
The old game (before all this nonsense) had all cards being turned over at showdown. The only reason the "ask for a hand to be shown" rule being introduced was to detect and stop collusion. It"s being abused and diluted by being used for asking for information gathering purposes.
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If you have had a bluff at the river, and get called, what purpose does having to show the failed bluff serve?
IMHO it only discourages a bluff in the first place.
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Collusion, collusion collusion. All this talk about collusion. You might see it on telly but how often have you caught someone colluding in a live public cardroom? Never? All this talk about something that virtually never happens.
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Quite agree with you John, but that is the only basis upon which someone should have to show their cards, once they have surrendered the pot.
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Quite agree with you John, but that is the only basis upon which someone should have to show their cards, once they have surrendered the pot.
You see, I agree...but while the rule exists (and is being abused) we have two options:
1. Force all hands to be shown (which I agree is not the ideal solution)
2. Insist that the asker state the reason why he"s asking BEFORE turning the cards over. and get him to justify it.
As I said, if I choose not to show (and if called I always do) and someone wants to see my hand the conversation will go...
V. I want to see that hand
Me. "Why? Do you think I"m cheating?"
V. No, I just want to see what you had.
Me. FLOOR!
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Collusion, collusion collusion. All this talk about collusion. You might see it on telly but how often have you caught someone colluding in a live public cardroom? Never? All this talk about something that virtually never happens.
You never seen two players check it down when a third player is all-in? Nine times out of ten this is collusion.
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Collusion, collusion collusion. All this talk about collusion. You might see it on telly but how often have you caught someone colluding in a live public cardroom? Never? All this talk about something that virtually never happens.
You never seen two players check it down when a third player is all-in? Nine times out of ten this is collusion.
You gonna try to get them thrown out for that? Okay it is collusion, but not the type we are talking about here.
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As I said, if I choose not to show (and if called I always do) and someone wants to see my hand the conversation will go...
V. I want to see that hand
Me. "Why? Do you think I"m cheating?"
V. No, I just want to see what you had.
Me. FLOOR!
Love it. I can"t wait to see this. If I get the chance I"m definitely gonna ask to see them (especially if I"m not still in the hand) just so I can watch the show.
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Collusion, collusion collusion. All this talk about collusion. You might see it on telly but how often have you caught someone colluding in a live public cardroom? Never? All this talk about something that virtually never happens.
You never seen two players check it down when a third player is all-in? Nine times out of ten this is collusion.
You gonna try to get them thrown out for that? Okay it is collusion, but not the type we are talking about here.
Just saying... that"s all.
P E Dant
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As I said, if I choose not to show (and if called I always do) and someone wants to see my hand the conversation will go...
V. I want to see that hand
Me. "Why? Do you think I"m cheating?"
V. No, I just want to see what you had.
Me. FLOOR!
Love it. I can"t wait to see this. If I get the chance I"m definitely gonna ask to see them (especially if I"m not still in the hand) just so I can watch the show.
You could but, unfortunately for you, I always turn my hand over at showdown. I"m not afraid of showing my hands...what information you might get from seeing them is not likely to be of any use.
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As I said, if I choose not to show (and if called I always do) and someone wants to see my hand the conversation will go...
V. I want to see that hand
Me. "Why? Do you think I"m cheating?"
V. No, I just want to see what you had.
Me. FLOOR!
Love it. I can"t wait to see this. If I get the chance I"m definitely gonna ask to see them (especially if I"m not still in the hand) just so I can watch the show.
[ ] This makes u sound like a swell guy...........
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As I said, if I choose not to show (and if called I always do) and someone wants to see my hand the conversation will go...
V. I want to see that hand
Me. "Why? Do you think I"m cheating?"
V. No, I just want to see what you had.
Me. FLOOR!
Love it. I can"t wait to see this. If I get the chance I"m definitely gonna ask to see them (especially if I"m not still in the hand) just so I can watch the show.
[ ] This makes u sound like a swell guy...........
Wow, didn"t expect that. I think you"ve crossed a line here - I"ve never seen a post like that on this forum.
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Dnt worry...it"s not against the rules...just bad etiquette...
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Dnt worry...it"s not against the rules...just bad etiquette...
;D
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I have no shame in asking to see your cards.
If I am sat at your table, and you are constantly raising, or overbetting flops to take down a hand, I am wondering what are you doing it with. If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board, I am going to ask to see the cards.. Its information.. It is also a way of curtailing the serial raiser if he has just had to show a load of rubbish.. If there isn"t an obvious serial raiser, I will not be asking to see cards.
None of my reason for asking to see is anything to do with collusion.
In a similar situation, if I have taken a risk to call down a serial raiser, and I call after the river, too many times, serial raiser wants to see my cards first. He aint gonna see them first. If it is just a std player, and I think I am good, I will show first and let him muck.
It all depends how you are playing against me. I MAY actually be just taking one for the table if I have chips...
Carl.
If someone is "constantly raising", clearly much of the time they are doing it with less than premium hands.
"If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board", clearly this was one of those occaisions.
I see no need to ask to see their cards to work this out.
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I have no shame in asking to see your cards.
If I am sat at your table, and you are constantly raising, or overbetting flops to take down a hand, I am wondering what are you doing it with. If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board, I am going to ask to see the cards.. Its information.. It is also a way of curtailing the serial raiser if he has just had to show a load of rubbish.. If there isn"t an obvious serial raiser, I will not be asking to see cards.
None of my reason for asking to see is anything to do with collusion.
In a similar situation, if I have taken a risk to call down a serial raiser, and I call after the river, too many times, serial raiser wants to see my cards first. He aint gonna see them first. If it is just a std player, and I think I am good, I will show first and let him muck.
It all depends how you are playing against me. I MAY actually be just taking one for the table if I have chips...
Carl.
If someone is "constantly raising", clearly much of the time they are doing it with less than premium hands.
"If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board", clearly this was one of those occaisions.
I see no need to ask to see their cards to work this out.
Agree.
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Dnt worry...it"s not against the rules...just bad etiquette...
;D
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/wuerg/vomit-smiley-014.gif)
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I have no shame in asking to see your cards.
If I am sat at your table, and you are constantly raising, or overbetting flops to take down a hand, I am wondering what are you doing it with. If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board, I am going to ask to see the cards.. Its information.. It is also a way of curtailing the serial raiser if he has just had to show a load of rubbish.. If there isn"t an obvious serial raiser, I will not be asking to see cards.
None of my reason for asking to see is anything to do with collusion.
In a similar situation, if I have taken a risk to call down a serial raiser, and I call after the river, too many times, serial raiser wants to see my cards first. He aint gonna see them first. If it is just a std player, and I think I am good, I will show first and let him muck.
It all depends how you are playing against me. I MAY actually be just taking one for the table if I have chips...
Carl.
If someone is "constantly raising", clearly much of the time they are doing it with less than premium hands.
"If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board", clearly this was one of those occaisions.
I see no need to ask to see their cards to work this out.
Agree.
So, if Pauline gets called on the river, refuses to show, and calls the floor what will be the outcome?
Is there an absolute rule or will it vary casino to casino or is there an APAT ruling?
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I have no shame in asking to see your cards.
If I am sat at your table, and you are constantly raising, or overbetting flops to take down a hand, I am wondering what are you doing it with. If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board, I am going to ask to see the cards.. Its information.. It is also a way of curtailing the serial raiser if he has just had to show a load of rubbish.. If there isn"t an obvious serial raiser, I will not be asking to see cards.
None of my reason for asking to see is anything to do with collusion.
In a similar situation, if I have taken a risk to call down a serial raiser, and I call after the river, too many times, serial raiser wants to see my cards first. He aint gonna see them first. If it is just a std player, and I think I am good, I will show first and let him muck.
It all depends how you are playing against me. I MAY actually be just taking one for the table if I have chips...
Carl.
If someone is "constantly raising", clearly much of the time they are doing it with less than premium hands.
"If someone calls you down and you muck with lots of good cards on board", clearly this was one of those occaisions.
I see no need to ask to see their cards to work this out.
Agree.
So, if Pauline gets called on the river, refuses to show, and calls the floor what will be the outcome?
Is there an absolute rule or will it vary casino to casino or is there an APAT ruling?
All we need is everyone to act like grown-ups... accept that virtually all of the rules of poker are there to protect YOU from possible cheating... NOT for you to use as stick to beat someone with, whether they be serial raiser or newcomer who has never even heard of a "String Bet."
Just "man up"... if you think someone is cheating and chip dumping, call them out, ask to see their mucked hands... if you think someone is raising too much, play back at them!! Seeemplz 8)
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So, if Pauline gets called on the river, refuses to show, and calls the floor what will be the outcome?
Is there an absolute rule or will it vary casino to casino or is there an APAT ruling?
Firstly, I forget [mod edit].
Secondly, the APAT tourneys are played under APAT rules and no-one elses.
Thirdly, there is no SPECIFIC rule (AFAIK) in the APAT rules about players being able to ask to see another players hand.
Fourthly, if (and it wouldn"t happen for reasons I have stated before) I decided not to show once called, mucked my hand, I would abide by whatever the TD decided.
However, there are the two sides to the discussion.
The side that would ask and don"t have a problem and the side that wouldn"t and have a problem with side 1.
The discussion has raged back and forth and it"s clear that the twain will never meet.
Basically, for the reasons stated, it"s considered bad form to ask to see a mucked (not folded) hand. If you choose to do it, that"s up to you, but if you get slated for it, you only have yourself to blame.
Until the "Rule" is clarified (or gets back to the original reason for it) we"ll have to live with it.
I would hope that the "APAT spirit" would pervade and the problem will not arise in the first place.
There, that"s answered the OP. Move along, nothing else to see here. :)