Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: shozboy1 on February 25, 2010, 11:24:11 AM
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Hi, this was an interesting hand I spotted in the book played by "Apestyles". It sort of relates to the 6max cash game JJ hand that was discussed afew days back (very loosely though). Obv this is a tourney though, but its at an early deep stack stage of the tourney so might be relevant to that hand...
early stages of a $320 buy in tourney. blinds 25-50. Afew aggressive regulars in seats 6, 8 and 9. Seats 1 and 4 are the only really tight players. Apestyles has a solid aggressive image.
seat 1 SB 2734
seat 2 BB 3325
seat 3 3550
seat 4 2711
seat 5 981
seat 6 4828
seat 7 4236 (apestyles)
seat 8 2915
btn 1720
seat 4 raises to 150. (Playing very tight). Apestyles calls 150. Flop is 8c 5c 2c.
Seat 4 makes a cbet of 300 into 375 pot (total 675)
Apestyles raises to 800 and seat 4 reraises all in for 1761 more. Apestyles....?
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What do we have...I can"t see it?
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I think we have JJ and fold if our reads r tht he has been "very tight." How can we be in good shape?
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I think we have JJ and fold if our reads r tht he has been "very tight." How can we be in good shape?
I agree...but do we have the jc ?
And if we do, does it change our opinion? The V has played this very strong throughout, we have to credit him with a monster here.
But we"ve put in nearly 25% of our stack with JJ. Personally, I would have re-raised pre-flop to evaluate.
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sorry, we have Jc and Js
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I"d be a nit and just call the flop to keep the pot small then re evalutate on the turn.
We could hit ace/king/queen club that might freeze his action or a J may hit to give us more outs if we fill up on the river.
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I"m flatting the flop - dnt really see what min-raising achieves against this given player.
I"m folding to the 3-bet shove on the flop as I dnt see how we are ever in good shape here.
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I"ll post up what Apestyles actually does after afew more people have had a chance to respond.
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so Apestyles raises the flop without knowing what he is going to do next with stack sizes? If so WTF did he raise, as a bluff?
flatting the flop would be better. If i a raising the flop i am probably getting it in, we are only dead to QQ-AA with a club or flopped flush, crushing 99-TT with a club and flipping virtually against a range of sets, draws (AcKx for example) - don"t have pokerstove at work to do the calcs.
not sure but with don"t like raising here without an idea of what we are going to do if called or jammed on,
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sorry, I left out what he actually did and why to let peeps have a say about what should happen
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I"m flatting the flop - dnt really see what min-raising achieves against this given player.
I don"t think anyone mentioned min-raising..he might have raised more on the flop but it"s not a min-raise.
I"m folding to the 3-bet shove on the flop as I dnt see how we are ever in good shape here.
Me three.
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Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?
If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?
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Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?
If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?
3betting preflop(when hero is not a LAggy player) vs a tight player results in this:
Better hands call or jam and worse hands fold. Also opens up the possibility of a 4bet from AK which we are struggling to call. Would you get jacks in pre vs a tight player for c60bbs?
3betting jacks to "see where you are" is basically turning a big hand into a bluff. Not great imo
I much prefer to play the streets here.
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Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?
If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?
3betting preflop(when hero is not a LAggy player) vs a tight player results in this:
Better hands call or jam and worse hands fold. Also opens up the possibility of a 4bet from AK which we are struggling to call. Would you get jacks in pre vs a tight player for c60bbs?
3betting jacks to "see where you are" is basically turning a big hand into a bluff.
I get all this but my point is that it would have been cheaper to 3 bet than raise the flop and STILL not know where we are when re-popped.
Typical tighties would do exactly as you say. Call or Jam. In which case, we can re-evaluate on the flop with position.
If AK 4 bets (and I don"t think this tighty would do this) we fold our medium pair with no issues for a much smaller % of our stack than where we are now.
I agree, betting for information is usually not a good idea usually because we don"t know what the information means. In this instance, I think we would get the information we were looking for.
Hey...just asking. :) As it"s played so far...I fold.
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Here"s what actually happened and why Apestyles did what he did:
He called the flop - although the exact hand is irrelevant villain flipped pair of 10s with 10c in his hand.
Preflop decision: "At the moment, I"m paranoid about a big hand from a tight player. I could be up against anything from 66+ AQ+. he has 54 BBS, and he could 4bet a large part/all of his stack. When you get 54BBs of your stack in pfr early in a tourney with JJ vs a tight player, you"re usually behind. But, raise folding JJ here is terrible because it kills the value of our hand. It"d be better to raise him pfr with say 10-9o if I am going to fold to a 4bet. In situations where your opponent will shove or fold, re-raising with good hands not quite good enough to call all in with is bad because it turns your hand into any two random cards (simple when explained by a top notch player I guess)
As mentioned above by Paulie, Apestyles goes on to say "there"s also less value in raising with JJ here becuase it causes hands that I can extract value from to fold. He"s probably going to shove/flat AK+ and fold AJ/AQ. If he flats his monsters I will have to cbet the flop worse hands will fold (AK) and better ones checkraise me all in. Also when the flop comes an A or Khis range is way ahead of me, and I won"t be able to proceed past a cbet. Flat calling keeps the pot small against a strong range, disguises my hand, and has large implied odds when I hit a set. I call"
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The flop decision:
Flop is 8c 5c 2c. Pot is 375.
"This is a great flop for my hand since I am basically racing against his calling range. Even against a tight range of 88+ AKc AQc I have 48.5% equity. Throw in single club AK and AQ combinations and my equity increases to just over 49%. He"ll also fold a large % of the time I raise. Its clear I"m going nowhere in this hand. I raise his cbet to 800 and he insta shoves. I call.
So my own thoughts are he"s turned this into a pure maths decision. He"s assigned the tight player a range, and decided against his entire range he"s basically flipping after the flop is dealt. To me the players insta 4bet shove on the flop indicates massive strength, but clearly Apestyles has already decided he"s flipping with the RANGE of the villain, so calls, and decides he would call before the villain ever 4bet shoved - based on the maths. Is my interpretation correct?
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Every decision in poker, ultimately, is maths. The big part is assigning accurate ranges, that"s what the top players do consistently well. They feed their intuitive feel for this away from the table by running spots through pokerstove and confirming or disproving their in play decisions were + EV.
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I can"t help feeling he ran into the bottom of villains range.
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I can"t help feeling he ran into the bottom of villains range.
well he did. That"s for sure
but there are still plenty of other hands out there that we are flipping with AcKx etc that he aint gonna fold that would make raise/folding this flop a mistake imo.
As an aside i played an almost exact hand in the DTD Monte Carlo event where i had Jacks on a 8 high monotone board vs a tight EP raiser ( i had the J hi flush draw) the flop went check/check and i then got two streets of decent value when the board ran out all low and no 4 flush (had TT with flush draw lol). Cos we were deep i think raising at any point would overrep the strength of my hand and would probably not be optimal.
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But Marty, isn"t it irrelevant that he ran into the bottom of the range this time? Against the whole range he was flipping so called (I havent done the pot odd calc but assume the odds were there to make the flop all in call). Next time he may make the same "correct" decision but run into AcAd
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I still dnt think raise/stacking off is the right move on this flop. Given his tight image I think the guys range is literally 1010+, AcKx. I also don"t think the villain stacks off 2/ red 10"s.
We r prob getting the right price against his range, but I just cnt help feel its a pretty ridiculous spot to put urself in w/ 85x at the opening stages. I think he may have taken the worst line available and just happened to be up against the one hand in the range he has dominated.
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i don"t think anyone has disagreed with you Marty, but if you do decide to raise the flop i think folding is wrong. I would have flatted the flop
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i don"t think anyone has disagreed with you Marty, but if you do decide to raise the flop i think folding is wrong. I would have flatted the flop
Yea, agreed. Wish he went into more details about y he thinks raise>fold. Its a weird line against given reads.
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problem if you flat the flop is that there"s not many cards other than a jack we can be happy seeing if he fires again? Any ace/king/queen are scary cards, and definitely becomes difficult to continue. Also any club means Ac Kc Qc just got there.
However, like Marty you said about the monte carlo hand, flatting would be better if the villain was deeper stacked no?
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Sorry, just to mention one further thing, for me the key learning point was to flat call the raise pfr. Raising to find out where we are would get him to shove some of his range - making us fold JJ, and the rest of the time he folds the part of his range we beat. Earlier in the book there"s alot of support for repopping of pfr raisers with easily muckable but potentially home run hands like suited 1 and 2 gappers. As apestyles mentions, repopping here turns our jj into any 2 random cards when he comes over the top of us
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Just do what Ivey would do, it will always be the best decision possible, and if we get busted out then move on to another tourny.
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i don"t think anyone has disagreed with you Marty, but if you do decide to raise the flop i think folding is wrong. I would have flatted the flop
Yea, agreed. Wish he went into more details about y he thinks raise>fold. Its a weird line against given reads.
Its one of those spots were lots of your equity is derived from the redraw potential and this is seriously diminished if we miss on the turn.
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But what do we need to hit on the turn? obviously a set would be nice, but we may already be behind to AQ clubs for example, and we cant be too happy hitting a flush either because we could also be behind to A high flush. Trouble with this problem is that its early on and people are scared of going busto during the first few levels imo. The decision what this guy takes on the flop to repop and jam it all is defently the best. If we get knocked out so be it. I once saw Phil ivey get his money in behind and he simply asked the table when the next EPT was.......thats the attutide that makes him great, if he makes mistakes he gets on with it.