Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: 2make1whole on October 25, 2007, 23:28:19 PM
-
I HAVE ALWAYS QUESTIONED THE RANDOM CARD GENARATOR AND EVEN EMAILED SITE ABOUT IT.NUMEROUS TIMES IVE BEEN DEALT SAME CARDS SAME SUITS TWICE EVEN 3 TIMES IN ROW B4.AND THEN THERES THE CASE OF IN MY EYES FROM PLAYING 1000S HANDS ONLINE IT JUST SEEMS TO BE THAT THE HANDS THAT ARE 30%/40% HIT ABOUT 60%70% OF THE TIME.WE ALL AHVE BAD BEATS AND HAVE GIVEN BEATS OUT TO BUT CAN EVERYBODY BE WRONG BECAUSE THEY ALL SEEM TO SAY SAME THAT HANDS BEHIND OR DOMINATED SEEM TO HIT AND WIN SO MUCH.
WHATS YOUR VIEW PLEASE
-
Random number generators are exactly that, totally random. There is absolutely no question about that at reputable sites like Ladbrokes, Blue Square, PokerStars, Sky and each other well known poker operator out there. These businesses have to pass stringent testing in their onshore / offshore licensed juridstictions.
-
This is something that is covered in forms of Mathematics and Physics.
A computer can not be totally random, because it follows a pattern that is laid out by a program. Although that pattern is so laid out that by the program in such away that the pattern it would produce would take so long to figure out that it is unfathoumable (is that a word). It would follow string which cannot be followed. I think is right, or at least it was when I done applied Mathematics.
The difference is you will never trust a computer, although its as random as dealing the cards yourself.
If you where playing live, and your oppo got dealt aa three times in a row, you would say you are so lucky, if it happened online you would say its fixed, the computer wants you to win.
-
Also, no need to use capitals - that"s the online equivalent of shouting.
-
This is something that is covered in forms of Mathematics and Physics.
A computer can not be totally random, because it follows a pattern that is laid out by a program. Although that pattern is so laid out that by the program in such away that the pattern it would produce would take so long to figure out that it is unfathoumable (is that a word). It would follow string which cannot be followed. I think is right, or at least it was when I done applied Mathematics.
The difference is you will never trust a computer, although its as random as dealing the cards yourself.
If you where playing live, and your oppo got dealt aa three times in a row, you would say you are so lucky, if it happened online you would say its fixed, the computer wants you to win.
The RNG"s are totally trustworthy from the point of view that the site"s will not try and tamper with them to make them less random.
If anything they are almost certainly more random then live shuffles.
But they aren"t unfathomable, if you knew the initialisation point that the RNG used and the type of RNG being used you could crack it. However, these types of details are kept very well hidden by the poker sites and even if you did know them it would still take some pretty nifty cryptographic software to crack them.
So if you want to worry, then worry about whether anybody else knows what cards you"ve got not what cards you"re getting. And then still don"t worry because it"s highly unlikely (using this method anyway).
-
If they are clever (and they ain"t stupid) the initailisation point for the RNG is almost certainly the millisecond portion of the time of day on their server.. Therefore you will never get it..... But the effectiveness of this generator is the key. I am sure that they are regulated and this is indepentently checked on all the major sites. I agree with Jon they are certainly more random that a shiite live shuffle (ask Shogun ::) )
-
Don"t get me wrong, I"m as annoyed as the next person when someone hits runner runner 3 times in a row or someone hits a one outer to knock me out of a tournament but I always think it is farcial when people question the randomness of a poker sites cards. People seem to forget that when you play online you probably see 4 hands for every one live (possibly even more) so it is inevitable that you are going to see more bad beats/suck outs etc. People seem to also forget that AK getting outflopped by J9 is not a bad beat!
It"s strange how you don"t here from the winning players about how sites are fixed
-
The other thing to remember is that the "cards" are continuously shuffled until the last action is made, so once the flop is down, the deck is still being shuffled before turn is dealt.
So when you fold on the flop, and see a turn or river card that would have won you the hand it"s worth remembering that if you"d called, the turn and river would have most probably been different cards.
-
The other thing to remember is that the "cards" are continuously shuffled until the last action is made, so once the flop is down, the deck is still being shuffled before turn is dealt.
So when you fold on the flop, and see a turn or river card that would have won you the hand it"s worth remembering that if you"d called, the turn and river would have most probably been different cards.
Are you sure Daniel, I was always under the impression that as a live shuffle/deal the pack was not touched after the start of the deal.
-
The other thing to remember is that the "cards" are continuously shuffled until the last action is made, so once the flop is down, the deck is still being shuffled before turn is dealt.
So when you fold on the flop, and see a turn or river card that would have won you the hand it"s worth remembering that if you"d called, the turn and river would have most probably been different cards.
Are you sure Daniel, I was always under the impression that as a live shuffle/deal the pack was not touched after the start of the deal.
I believe Daniel is correct, although his use of the word "shuffle" might be misleading. The Turn and River will be determined at the moment the card is exposed, based on a random number generated at that time, which will be based on an element of the time at that moment.
So if you were to call 5 seconds after a bet is made, the Turn or River exposed would be different to that exposed if you"d waited another half a second to make your call.
Does that sound right Daniel, or am I way off the mark.....?
-
i never new that they did that i fink thats insane that the timing of ur call determines wot the next card will be :-\
-
i never new that they did that i fink thats insane that the timing of ur call determines wot the next card will be :-\
FFs where have you guys been.. have none of you read the chapter in Harrington where he tells you if you need an ace on the river you have to wait until there is 6 seconds left in the time bank to call...Sigh well seeing it"s an amatuer forum.. ;D
-
Absolutely 100% certain that"s how it works Chris.
It doesn"t matter of course, as you don"t know what the card is going to be if you call now, or 5 seconds later - so it"s irrelevant in terms of thinking "what if" I"d called earlier/later/not folded, etc..
-
For me Online is bad beat city ! I no you play more hands online so your going to be seeing more hands but tiime and time again the underdog sucks out.
At least live you can see the whites of there eyes ! Seem to win a hell of a lot more live than online. I no I am bucking the trend but I am moving to play all my Poker live rather than online now.
I also think maybe its the sites because I do seem to see a pattern, on PokerStars it feels like live real hands played to win but at the other end Sky Poker seems to be under dog city. Sky Poker in my view is not Poker its muppet poker and I feel for these players who learn there game there, when they go live they will be busted fish out of water lol
Whats Your View ?
Which sites do you rank to play Online ?
-
Thank you for all your comments and replies
-
For me Online is bad beat city ! I no you play more hands online so your going to be seeing more hands but tiime and time again the underdog sucks out.
At least live you can see the whites of there eyes ! Seem to win a hell of a lot more live than online. I no I am bucking the trend but I am moving to play all my Poker live rather than online now.
I also think maybe its the sites because I do seem to see a pattern, on PokerStars it feels like live real hands played to win but at the other end Sky Poker seems to be under dog city. Sky Poker in my view is not Poker its muppet poker and I feel for these players who learn there game there, when they go live they will be busted fish out of water lol
Whats Your View ?
Which sites do you rank to play Online ?
The reason there are more outdraws, is because more people are willing to stick their chips in when they"re behind.
If people don"t put their chips in when they"re behind, they can"t outdraw you. If you"re an 80% favourite in a hand - it means that you"re going to lose 1 in 5 on average.
Try something. Whenever you get all your chips in, and then find out you"re a big favourite, note it down. Note down if you win or lose. You"ll find you win most of them.
It"s called variance. If you don"t like it, play chess or another game where luck isn"t an element. In poker, especially in tournaments, you need luck to win. To win consistently you need a good game. You also need a bit of luck too.
Also, if you are the one doing the outdrawing - it means you"re getting your chips in with the worst of it.
-
So Daniel at what point do you not put it down to variance but down to the poker gods remembering that as a kid I could tell what my Grandad had by looking at his glasses that reflected his cards in the lens.
Current record since I started noteing wins losses in coin flips on Joker Stars (45-55 per cent flips and better)
W 11 L 42
Blue Square W 7 L 8
Full Tilt W 1 L 2
PKR (OK I own up I play there!) W 12 L 10
I am beginning to wonder about a site that has its Random Generator scrutinised and Licensed in a South American Banana Republic!!!
-
A sample of less than a 100 is utterly meaningless.
A sample of less than a 1000, however, will only be quite meaningless - see what they say then.
-
I agree Jon, totally meaningless at the moment.
Will keep you updated till it gets quite meaningless.
Sadly cant actually keep away from the site grrrrrrrr
-
You play on PKR ???
-
;D
Yep.
Some of the softest Limit players I have ever seen
Won the 10 buck Limit tourney 3 times in last 6 days :)
-
I can"t do it, i looked like Mr T, and the camera kept aiming at the the same woman :( i forgot i was even playing poker i thought i was on the sims.
-
I know its like admitting you like Kylie when you are 43
-
It"s like admitting i watch Home and Away ::)
-
I know its like admitting you like Kylie when you are 43
You should like Kylie at ANY age. Not her music though, just her.
As for the question about variance, there are two answers. One Jon has covered - 100 hands isn"t a statistically significant sample.
The other answer is that you can play to avoid variance. What I mean is that in tournaments, if you think you have an advantage over other players at the table you want to be avoiding coin-flips whenever possible. Avoid the 55 v 45 races that you are obviously going to lose 45 times out of a hundred, especially if it"s your tournament life on the line.
It might also be a case of avoiding certain tournaments that attract the players that will call as 35% underdogs for their tournament life. If you"re willing to embrace the variance, you"re happy they"re getting it in with the worst of it (and be prepared to be sucked out on) - but if you want to avoid the variance, then you need to avoid these tournaments.
I think...